Mets Community Prospect List 2010: #5 RUN-OFF!!!
With Jeurys Familia, Matt Harvey, and Lucas Duda only separated by two votes after two days of polling, I'm instituting a run-off between the three candidates for the #5 spot. The player receiving the most in the approximate 24 hour period will be put on the prospect list in the #5 spot, and the other two players will be put back onto the regular ballot for voting for the #6 spot. Without further ado, vote away!
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For the record, familia had 12 Ks tonight
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Aug 17, 2010 11:50 PM EDT reply actions
4 BBs too in 6+ innings.
Although if you’re striking out 12 that’s fine.
Harvey has yet to prove anything in my eyes. Give this one to Familia.
Ed Rooney: What's the score?
Pizza Joint Owner: Nothin' nothin'.
Ed Rooney: Who's winning?
Pizza Joint Owner: The Bears.
Harvey has yet to prove anything, Familia's control is a real problem,
Duda’s proving it at AAA. In fact, he’s overmatching that league. Performance over potential!
I disagree
Even with his performance, Duda has a large platoon split, his potential is pretty much a platoon player with poor defense in the outfield corners or at first. Familia’s control is a problem, but his upside far outweighs Duda’s as does Harvey’s. Both could be front line pitchers with hard fastballs and solid ground ball rates. I can’t see a case for Duda above either of them really.
Eh
Davis had a larger platoon split than Duda, but nearly 100 points. So I’m not really sure how much it outweighs them especially if he could reasonably play a corner spot, which left total offensive expectancies than 1st base. And I think you have to weigh upside with production/liklihood of reaching that production. A corner outfielder mashing in AAA and pretty much destroying the league is a lot more likely and easier to project to a major league spot than a 20 year old in A ball who’s years off.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
well
duda did have over 1100 minor league ab’s to confirm that split whereas ike was just over 600 when he was called up, which is still kind of light
by Rob Castellano on Aug 19, 2010 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
And Davis had under 250 ABs in the upper levels
Where pitchers with quality breaking balls and who can throw breaking balls for strikes are much more common. Davis wasn’t really given a chance to adjust to that situation. Duda has over 700 ABs in the upper levels, probably almost a half-season’s worth of PAs against left handed pitchers in Double-A or Triple-A. He’s handled lefties okay since hitting Buffalo but was even more miserable against them than usual in Binghamton, so the result is a composite split that looks pretty parallel to his career pace, just with the extra pop he added this year.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 19, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a lefty
platoon splits are meaningless for lefties.
That's not true
I mean, they have to be larger to be significant than with righties, but to say they’re meaningless because he’s a lefty just isn’t true at all.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 19, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Two reasons
1. The sample size is never very significant.
2. Even when there is a real split it doesn’t hurt the players value.
About 75% of the pitchers you face are going to be right handed. Being better at hitting right handed pitchers therefore is an advantage, not a liability. A lefty with a strong split is still a starter. He usually ends up with a league average split anyway in the end, even if he had a strong split for thousands of PA. But if there is a real platoon split, that only makes him a better starter three quarters of the time.
The rules for making substitutions always favor the offense. You can substitute for a batter at any time, but a substitute pitcher must face the next batter. So the offense always has a chance to react to the defense. Any manager worth anything is going to get better results with the guy with the platoon split, because he controls the matchups. You occasionally are forced to use a bench player to pinch hit, but so what, bullpens are usually shorter than benches on any given day, and you are forcing the opposing team to burn bullpen options, especially lefty specialists.
by acerimusdux on Aug 19, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
That's incredibly misleading
First, In Duda’s case, we have four full seasons of data suggesting a very large platoon split. There’s little variance in its degree, and its degree is large. Even taking Tom Tango’s advice and regressing it considerably in our projections leaves a large difference.
Second, of course its true that the majority of pitchers are right handed, but that’s a double edged sword. It also means that lefty batters have seen far fewer like handed pitchers in the past, especially when they were young and first learning the fundamentals of hitting. The result is that we often see much larger platoon splits in lefties than righties. Of course its still an advantage to be left handed, but that doesn’t make a platoon split meaningless. You would obviously rather have a guy who OPSes .800 vs. lefties and .600 vs. righties than .700 vs. both. But a platoon split isn’t necessarily a tactical tradeoff. A player with a platoon split is only better three quarters of the time relative to himself the other quarter of the time, not compared to any kind of baseline talent level. You’d still much prefer a guy OPSed .800 vs both.
Third, in terms of making offensive substitutions, the rules may favor the offense but rosters certainly don’t. When are bullpens shorter than benches? How many days in a season are there fewer than five pitchers available? That simply doesn’t seem true to me, especially when you consider most benches contain at least one or two hitters who are virtually useless offensively, at most just one or two who are at least average hitters, and at most usually just one lefty and one righty who is a significant offensive threat against his opposite. Having a Mike Hessman type, a guy who has a platoon split along with offensive value is nice to have on your bench, but you’re not going to PH a mediocre right handed hitter for someone like Ryan Howard or David Ortiz in a close game.
I don’t necessarily disagree that the significance of a left handed batter’s platoon split is less in degree than that of a right handed batter and perhaps less in degree than traditional wisdom suggests, but saying its meaningless is ignoring a very significant, pervasive, and interesting element of the game. If Lucas Duda looked like he could OPS even .700 at the major league level vs. LHP, it would effect his career projections pretty significantly. That could well be the difference between a Quad A/part-time masher carried on a major league roster for his bat and a solid everyday player who consistently plays 140 games a year and carries above average value. Just like a slick glove could make that difference for a SS without much bat, or positional versatility could make the difference in the career of a “tweener” type like Daniel Murphy.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 19, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
How So?
Did you read that link?
Tango is looking at four seasons of data for Ryan Howard, four big league seasons, which is more PA than we have here, and he still recommends regressing 80% towards the mean there.
Doing the same for Duda:
His observed platoon ratio for those 4 years is 1.052/.719, or 1.46.
His observed platoon ratio for those 4 years is 0.933/.621, or 1.50
For the average lefty, it is 1.20 and we just don’t see that much variation among players in their true platoon splits. IOW, that 1.46 is likely very (but not completely) flukey.
For the average lefty, it is 1.20 and we just don’t see that much variation among players in their true platoon splits. IOW, that 1.50 is likely very (but not completely) flukey.
We might regress that 1.46 80% toward the league average of 1.20, to get 1.25. That is Howard’s "true" estimated platoon split.
We might regress that 1.50 80% toward the league average of 1.20, to get 1.26. That is Duda’s "true" estimated platoon split.
With that small a difference from average, it just means next to nothing compared to how good a hitter a guy is. Josh Thole for example hit lefties better than righties in the minors, in a similar size sample. I would still expect Duda to hit lefties better than Josh Thole.
If we expect Duda to face 75% RHP:
.25+.75*1.26=1.195
.25+.75*1.20=1.15
[really it’s OPS=.25x + .75(x*1.26); which reduces to OPS=1.195x]
and so if his projected OPS is .840:
.840/1.195 = .703 OPS vs. lefties for Duda
.840/1.15 = .730 OPS for league average lefty starter with an .840 OPS.
This should also be changed to
Mets Community Prospect List 2010: #4 RUN-OFF!!!
Cause Fernando is gonna lose his eligibility pretty soon.
We can just bump everyone up a notch if someone gets traded or loses eligibility
We’ll vote for a couple standbys at 21-22 or something.
It's like the opposite of the late 80s/early 90s Dodgers
Didn’t they win it like 7 out of 8 years or something? Seemed that way.
They won four straight from 1979 to 1982
And 5 more from 1992 to 1996
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Jerry Manuel.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 18, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Soon as in now....
05/26/09 New York Mets called up Fernando Martinez from Buffalo Bisons.
06/19/09 New York Mets optioned Fernando Martinez to Buffalo Bisons.
06/22/09 LF Fernando Martinez assigned to New York Mets from Buffalo Bisons.
07/09/09 New York Mets placed LF Fernando Martinez on the 15-Day disabled list retroactive to July 4, 2009. Inflammation behind his right knee.
08/07/10 New York Mets recalled LF Fernando Martinez from Buffalo Bisons.
That’s 24+12 = 36 days in 2009
And 11 days now in 2010 makes 47 days on the roster.
So Fernando is no longer eligible as of Tuesday, August 17 (his 46th day).
With Mejia and Fernando on the list
Our top 10 looks pretty good to me, without them, Flores seems like the only young, high upside who has had success in the minors.
Having Niese and Davis helped a lot too
But they looked like they belonged as potential graduates, especially Niese. A lack of graduation for Niese probably would have caused an increase in heart disease among registered AA users.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 18, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true
It’s more about where the cycles of prospecthood and graduation are falling, but instinctively it just feels like a noticeable drop off
this
outside of Niese and Davis, who’s been so-so to this point, none of our “graduates” actually look to have an impact this year or next, and none of the non graduates are particularly inspiring or close enough to really matter.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
The good news, if there's any good news,
is that while the Mets will have no money next year, they can fill a pretty good bench and man a platoon at 2b for the minimum.
I guess that’s good news. Sort of.
I do think Gee and Duda could have nice positive impact next year
They won’t be stars, but I would say Gee’s probably the fifth or sixth best SP in the organization right now and that Duda could already be at least as good if not a bit better than Chris Carter at just about everything.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 18, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I have reasonable hopes for both
And (heresy I know) I still think Murphy will be a valuable bench player. Heck, if he’s Joe McEwing lite that’s something.
oh yeah I think Duda and Gee could
but at this point I’m not convinced the front office will give them a chance.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
+1
Yeah, Duda is 3.5 years younger and already showing considerably more power and plate discipline than Carter.
xbh% so% bb%
09.8% 16.1% 07.9% Carter age 25 AAA
08.6% 13.2% 08.8% Carter age 26 AAA
13.6% 16.4% 11.9% Duda age 24 AA & AAA
The HR power may be similar, but when you look at those xbh rates, and the walk rates, it’s not even close.
I think some underestimate the significance of those walk rate differences. There was a comment in one of the early threads about Ratliff vs. Niewenhuis, and how important is a 6% vs and 8% walk rate. But that’s a pretty large difference. That’s 20 points of OBP. If a guy is a .270 hitter, that’s a difference of:
.270+.060= .330 OBP
.270+.080= .350 OBP
That’s the difference between a little bit better than Francoeur, and a league median outfielder.
Getting back to Duda then, that walk rate is HUGE. If he could keep it as high as 10% at the next level, if he hit .260 he’d have near a .360 OBP.
With the extra base hits, I think some people pay too much attention to HR. HR power doesn’t peak until age 27-28. With a big kid like this, I’m far more interested in seeing the extra base hit rate. Even if Duda’s HR jump this year were temporary, he’s hitting enough doubles he could still potentially OPS over .800 with that .350+ OBP. And the doubles can turn to HR later.
So I do think he has a fair shot to be a league average LF, even if he ends up about a -10 defender.
The question is then what the Mets do with Carter. I do worry sometimes they get too attached to guys. I imagine they’d try to trade him, but if there are no takers, he’s not a guy you should worry about putting on waivers if needed either.
Absolutely.
Gee is excellent pitching depth for next year, and I still give Duda a 10% chance of becoming a good quality regular. Certainly he has a shot at being a solid bench guy.
If Minaya ever figures out that getting depth in your system by finding a bunch of guys who are about halfway between ML regular and replacement level (and therefore cheap, esp if young) is one way to get to the postseason, look out NL East!
Also
Both Fernando and Niese really would have graduated last year, if it weren’t for injuries late in the season. So last year’s list was a bit artificially deep. I thought then, based only on the eligible talent, that it should have ranked above average, though most didn’t have it that high. Overall system performance though, I thought was still average at best, probably a bit below average.
Still feel this system overall is average at best, and the talent may temporarily rank even a bit worse than that. But I think the scouting and player development has been very good, really much improved, and gets too much criticism. The onus for any weakness here for me is squarely on the front office, for not being willing to pay for more high ceiling talent. That is, for not valuing high draft picks over free agents, not using the arbitration process to that end either, not going overslot to any large degree, etc. I almost get the feeling the money that has been invested on the player development end, for new facilities in the DR, for running 9 minor league affiliates, etc., has had to come out of the budget for signings and bonuses. And you get what you pay for.
A lot of people are disappointed in the pitching performances this year, but a lot of the time, when you are making adjustments to things like mechanics, grips, and repertoire, results get worse before they get better. Control especially tends to suffer at first. I think guys like Familia, Carson, and Allen still have the talent to emerge behind Harvey as a pretty solid crop of arms, giving the system some better balance. So it could end up looking somewhere near average, or even above.
Still, Flores and Harvey right now are really the only true potential “blue chips”. I think things would look more balanced if you had just one more high ceiling polished mid rotation or better arm there.
Yup, and really the reason there isn't one more blue chipper is because neither Havens or Holt have emerged to that status
Both showed some flashes of it, but Holt’s tumble has been fast and hard and Havens can’t stay healthy. The failure to sign any big upside guys from last year’s draft crop didn’t help either, particularly those early-mid round arms that they let get away. .
Completely agree on all points though. Allen’s the only guy from last year’s Savannah crop whose really had a lost season, but he’s still got time. He was the least polished of the three in a lot of ways, but he’s also still the most gifted athletically. Sometimes that can be as much a stumbling block as an advantage for a young player being pushed to play against more advanced competition. Carson has the least upside of the three, but he’s still got a big live arm and nothing about his season was really disastrous, there just wasn’t anything particularly encouraging. There are things about Familia’s season that are pretty encouraging for the long term, even if the results have been ugly.
And the spending on player development is a reason that too often gets overlooked for the lack of spending in the draft. Its one of the things that would be an interesting topic of discussion if a new front office regime were put in place. Would they consider cutting either the GCL or K-Mets? I’ve always thought it was a bit redundant to have both, especially now that they have the Dominican Academy. That would seem to be the best way to quickly reallocate funds from player development to talent evaluation and procurement.
Part of it also seems to be that the Cyclones aren’t so much viewed as a player development club as much as a legit money-maker. The last couple years, the Clones have been loaded with older players, guys who might actually draw crowds, and rosters built to produce wins rather than future big leaguers. Its in pretty stark contrast to how all the other affiliates function.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 18, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Holt and Havens
I don’t really think either Holt or Havens was ever quite a potential blue-chipper either, thinking here really of top 30 overall type talent. It’s very rare you are going to get that type of guy at 2B; it seems the guys with better tools stay at SS, and the bigger stronger guys end up on the corners. Havens seems like a guy who had some strong plate discipline, and a good swing with decent pop, but even if healthy and things go well, I’m not sure he ends up ranking higher than a guy like Todd Frazier has over the last couple of seasons. Holt likewise, nice fastball, but I think the secondary stuff always projected not better than average.
But I think we have a whole slew of guys in that category, who are guys who could make top 100 lists at some point, or even crack top 50 if things go right. Most just aren’t quite there yet. But, beyond the guys already on our list, I think Familia, Duda, Ceciliani, Aderlin Rodriguez, Cesar Puello, Sean Ratliff, Juan Urbina, Jefry Marte, Rob Carson, Kyle Allen, and maybe even Valdespin or Lutz, are guys with at least some top 100 potential if things go right. Duda is maybe the oddest one there in that he might even have to show something at the MLB level at this point before he gets that kind of respect. Out of that group though, I expect we’ll get our fair share of “good” prospects over the next year or two, just probably not enough to really be better than average overall.
Yeah I'll agree, Havens likely wouldn't have ever been a Top 30 prospect
Harvey isn’t that now, I doubt he’s Top 50, but he probably has more potential to get there. I also think Havens, had he been healthy, is exactly the kind of player a traditional scouting approach would have undervalued, and that’s more why I wouldn’t necessarily envision him as a Top 30 prospect than because he wouldn’t project as an elite talent at the highest level. Good at everything, but not great at anything. The same reason a lot of people would say Ryan Howard is a better/more valuable player than Chase Utley, even though that clearly isn’t the case. But even Chase Utley never peaked on BA’s list any higher than 81, and that was his only Top 100 appearance. The toolsier Brandon Phillips made two Top 30 appearances even though he moved off SS, but I think the difference between the careers of and how Phillips and Utley were treated as prospects is a good example of why the Utley types tend to get undervalued and the Phillips types overvalued. And that’s not even to say that Havens deserves an Utley comparison (though if he’d been healthy and put up the kinds of numbers he has I think it would be somewhat appropriate), just a comparison between a more skills based player who has no significant production weaknesses vs. a more tools based player with strengths that are more obvious to the naked eye but weaknesses that prevent him from ever reaching the highest level of impact.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 18, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree about the player development
and I don’t think scouting has been as much of a problem as who they scout.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Ha!
Here is an excellent scouting report detailing everything that’s wrong with Oliver Pe…. “WE’LL TAKE HIM”
lol I meant more in terms of minors
it seems they overvalue certain skills in both the draft and IFA. So they always get their guys, and they definitely get the skill they want. It just doesn’t matter.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I think that Harvey will win this one now that he has signed
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
by Bobby Baseball on Aug 18, 2010 11:18 AM EDT reply actions

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