Omar Minaya and Jeff Wilpon Are 6-13 Against Nationals and Diamondbacks
by Sam Page on Aug 2, 2010 1:01 PM EDT
Email
PrintOver the course of the season, the manager's decisions might influence 100 games, but account for 4 or 5 wins--6 or 7 even, if he's as consistently wrong as Jerry Manuel. Similarly, the lazy center fielder might not hustle in 4 notable instances, but over 162 games, the net-effect of his hustling or not-hustling on any given play is probably negligible.
A starting position player sees about 2,300 pitches per season, each with a single, recorded binary outcome attached to it. How the outcome came to be is interesting and ever-changing, but from season-to-season, the sum of the outcomes is remarkably consistent. Teams usually play to their talent.
Which is why I just can't take things like this seriously:
The Mets should be embarrassed of themselves.
Yes, this is a flawed team… but most teams are.
The thing is, the New York Mets play in a league with lots of parity, they have severalvery good players on the roster, a $130 million payroll, and a passionate fan base who want nothing more than to see the team win.
Yes, the roster could be better. Yes, the manager could make better choices late in games. Yes, more money could be spent on better talent.
I'm not criticizing Matt--his sentiment is common and understandable. Teams just don't outplay the destiny of their own mediocrity, though. Closed door meetings, finger-waggings and Alex Cora temper-tantrums are just pathetic attempts to assert control over forces greater than any single game. I buy that good teams can "play down" to bad competition, but when you're Jeff Francoeur or Alex Cora, how much lower can you really go?
In baseball, more so than any sport, roster construction is the great game within the game. Yes players have career-years, down-years and disasters do happen. Those events are just inherent risks, though, which can be accounted for in the construction. It's always painfully obvious which teams in the offseason are scrambling to get 25 players together and which are creating redundancies and contingencies for a finely tuned machine, years in the making.
Chastise perfectly fine players if you want, but know they probably feel as helpless as you.
156 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I would criticize Matt for this-
-no, this isn’t the age of the “go get ’em boys” attitude any longer where we pin personal blame on a team for underperforming. We’re too smart and know too much to just pin things on players for fluctuations in their true talent levels that don’t abide by our desires. It’s time to realize that the man playing the 2-7 off-suit in poker is to be blamed for losing, not the cards.
by Pat Andriola on Aug 2, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This
Make it turn green
"The Mets have shown me more ways to lose than I even know existed" -Casey Stengel
Once again, I think its time to start over.
I have thought about it for a while, it is apparent to me that its time to clean house. I mentioned this in the “Five Ways To Improve The Mets (And Restore Some Sanity To The Fanbase)” article. It is time for roster reconstruction. It all starts with firing Omar and Jerry. Even though the more and more we talk about it, the less likely it seems that they will be fired. I think its time this team steps up and do whats right for this team. If only they weren’t in such denial.
Consequences will never be the same.
I was having a good day until i came to AA
this stat makes me cry and believe we are destined to suck
I hate Philadelphia so much.
I question one stat in here...
And that is that the average player sees 2300 pitches a year. So this probably means that Frenchy can reasonably be expected to see what, 300 or 400 in a season?
Pitches seen by Francoeur last year: 2114
MLB average: 3.8/PA
Francoeur 2009: 3.37/PA (with the Mets)
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
I hate stats...
After seeing this. Makes no sense. Did he have a couple of 15 pitch ABs that skewed the numbers? I’d like to see a distribution graph.
no he fouls off a lot of pitches
also it’s still below average, so he’s still worse than most players. 3ish pitches a PA seems pretty right for frenchy.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
SELL...THIS...TEAM.
To anyone NOT named Dolan or Murdoch…
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
2 (hard to pronounce) words
Mikhail Prokhorov.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 2, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
In billionaire Russian playboys we trust huh?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 2, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Dolan is necessarily a bad owner.
He is fine as long as the right GM is in place. Really, he is everything you want in an owner. He is loyal, he spends a lot of money, and he just stays out of the way. If Isiah Thomas is running the team, Dolan is an awful owner. If Donnie Walsh is running the team, he is a good owner.
Matt's cherrypicking
It’s an emotional reaction, of course, and he wants to will the Mets to wins. He, like all of us, was teased by early success (we were 48-40 at the Break!) but it was a tease.
This team is built with the intention (!!) of having Oliver Perez, John Maine, Jeff Francoeur, Luis Castillo, Alex Cora, Mike Jacobs, Barajas/Blanco and GMJr playing key roles. The fact that Dickey, Ike, Tak2, and Pagan thrived (to varying degrees) is a miracle in and of itself.
by Dan Lewis on Aug 2, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
the thing is
despite all of that, we are and were where we were and there are games that i am sure all of us feel we could have won if better managed
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Amazing how guys not expected to thrive sometimes do when given the chance...
Hmmmmmm. This seems to go counter to the orthodoxy. It’s not a miracle, it’s just what happens sometimes. Also why I advocate for chancing an unknown for a bad known from time to time.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 2, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I kind of disagree
That the whole is always pretty much the sum of the parts — get the right mix of players and they will make each other better.
That said, you have to have a Gillickian knack for getting the right group together. You cannot simply spackle over roster holes with pulped Franklins, and then decide “hey, we need a leader or two to throw into the mix” and pretend Alex Cora is going to make you better by playing the “leader” position. It doesn’t work that way. You have to have a coherent organizational philosophy up through the minors, a gushing pipeline of prospects, a shrewd eye for talent, institutional accountability, even for people named “Wilpon,” AND a recognition that the puzzle pieces on the field need to fit together. Alternatively, you can spend like the Yankees — so much that if an Ollie doesn’t work out, you pretend he never happened and just sign some more. I think we all know which alternative we’d prefer.
I can't figure out why the fuck they're so reluctant to admit that Ollie was a mistake
It’s not just the Yankees – plenty of teams have gotten rid of players who performed disastrously with respect to their contracts. I know the Wilpons are achingly sensitive to press criticism, but it’s not like they’re avoiding it by putting their heads in the sand. Get rid of him, let everyone forget the whole thing ever happened.
It could be agent-related
That’s the only explanation I can come up with. It’s a sunk cost. Time to move on. Cost of doing business.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously the rays owed Burrel as much money
and they’re a broke small market team.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Maybe in contact sports,
not in baseball, imo.
The most important thing I've learned in the last few seasons...
Talent wins ballgames. Period. It may seem obvious to most of us but apparently this isn’t obvious to the Mets front office. People always point to the Yankees from 2001-2008 as the reason why you can’t have a team full of all stars. Guess what…those teams missed the playoffs ONCE and won 89+ games every year. Mets fans would sell their left testicle to win 89+ games a year for 8 years. I understand the chemistry argument but to think that team “chemistry” has a big role and is what wins games is bullshit. And I’m not even talking about the front office here but mainly the fans since I have no idea what the front office thinks. The best teams get to the playoffs and everything else, sadly, is luck once you get there. Those Yankees teams could’ve won but they didn’t because there are OTHER TEAMS in the league. All the fans and hack MSMs said that they didn’t win because they lacked Grissionz and had no leaders but now that they have Nick Swisher they have so much grission!
It’s talent…talent wins.
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Aug 2, 2010 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Chemistry is not personality Chemistry
Its the Balance of Power and guys who drive you crazy after you walk that Power the Mets have 1-5 somedays 6 (Thole) but Francour Cora/Castillo don’t give you either and there D is Avg at best. They get nothing going most of the time in the bottom half of the lineup to keep it turning over
My 1-5 is Reyes, Pagan, Wright, Beltran, Ike
Ikes number look a lot like Larouche’s and for a Rookie thats not bad( plus he is a very Good Defensive 1st baseman
The idea that we're good against good teams is also just plain wrong.
Keep in mind that the Mets swept both Baltimore and Cleveland, and 3-1 against the Cubs. Lump them in with ARI and WAS, and we’re 15-14 against bad teams, a .500 team against teams with a winning percentage of .450 or higher.
Is that true?
Really? I believe it but it hadn’t occurred to me. This is just sad.
No, I meant higher.
We’re currently one game over .500.
Against teams sub-.450, we’re also one game over .500.
Therefore, we’re a .500 team against all teams with a win% of .450 or higher.
It's hard to not to criticize Mets management
when talent is constantly overrated (Jeff Francouer, Alex Cora, Luis Castillo), necessary changes are not made (seriously, Oliver Perez is STILL a Met?) and gaps go unfilled. Fans can tell you this team is a minimum of at least one (probably two) decent starter, a second baseman and a couple of bullpen arms from contending but management can’t figure it out?
If the Mets aren’t going to be contenders in 2010, how could this management team sit still at the trade deadline? Is no one interested in Mets players or are Minaya/Manuel really that paralyzed by indecision? Oh, I forgot – they traded Mike Jacobs.
I think this team is actually
an organization short of a full deck. We cannot win by simply patching the holes you mention. Or, more appropriately, we can’t patch those holes and simultaneously prevent future holes from opening up without improving the farm system dramatically: specifically, the drafting and development of pitchers. This draft, they took the shotgun approach, which smacked of desperation — “heck, one of these guys’ll pan out!!!!!”
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't argue with that at all
and, that’s also frustrating because the Mets aren’t bad at developing young players – Reyes, Wright, Niese, Pelfrey, Davis, Thole…all pretty much homegrown talent. Just seems like the whole never adds up to the sum of its parts, much less exceeds it.
by Southfield_2001 on Aug 2, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
eh
we could have patched all those holes last off-season for virtually no cost. Ankiel, Lopez/Johnson, Johnson who would have been under team control next year too, Piniero/Garland/Penny, and a trade for Chris Snyder, who at the time the d-backs apparently just wanted to salary dump. The problem is they just do a whole bunch of insaneness in the off-season.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
With hindsight
you can make a championship team for no money. You need a better argument than to say “we could get equally sucky players for nothing.” Clearly, if you know who’s going to exceed market value at the get-go, you can start from scratch and win.
The other issue is that you simply don’t know if those players would have been as successful as Mets. Does Jason Bay have the same shit season no matter where he signs?
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
huh? hindsight?
pretty much everyone here wanted those moves in the off-season. And Bay to Cora isn’t really a comparison. Cora was a lock to fail, Bay so far has maybe been bad luck. Although it’s also entirely possible he’s injured, the Red Sox apparently wanted some sort of opt out clause because of fear of his shoulder so knowing the mets it’s entirely possible there were reasons to be concerned about his shoulder and the mets medical staff just completely glossed over it.
Kelly Johnson was a decent prospect/young up and coming 2nd basemen who completely fell off in 09 for no apparent reason, there wasn’t really any reason to not expect him to bounce back, him and Lopez have been both much better players than Castillo the last 3 years so it’s not really like no one could have predicted they’d be better this year. Piniero was coming off a great season and wanted to sign here but apparently waited for us to contact him for months, while we chased Molina, and then we didn’t make an offer until after the angels had, Garland has been the same pitcher for like the last 6 years, so really no reason to not expect him to not be it again, and Penny would have been more of a risk but he’d be a much better risk than Ollie and Maine.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Come on
if Johnson had been signed, we’d have been wondering why the hell Omar was obsessed with picking up Braves rejects. And, honestly, I’m not sure Kelly Johnson succeeds here. Better than Cora? Absolutely. But (shudder) Cora was also an insurance policy for Reyes, in the eyes of our idjit GM.
Pineiro I can see, although many thought of him as a Dave Duncan creation with little track record. And if you’re talking about our stopgaps, for the money, would you rather have Pineiro or Dickey? Some would call the latter signing genius. Just sayin. . . .
The real failing of this team has been the failure to come up with solid pitching out of the minors with regularity — in the ’pen and rotation.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I woudn't have been wondering that
I would’ve been wondering who was making such shrewd moves, because it couldn’t possibly have been Omar.
And why does Pineiro = no Dickey? We’re paying Dickey $600,000, according to Cot’s.
Suuuuure you would. . .
Look, my only point is that there are deeper, more fundamental shortcomings at work here. It’s not only Omar’s failure to make the perfect offseason moves. It’s that we have a poor organization with no track record of producing solid major league talent from the minors (consistently) since Omar has taken over.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah there's deeper issues
but with the teams money they wouldn’t matter if they just avoided the huge surface obvious stupid
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
this Dickey would have been here regardless
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
um what?
no no one would have said that. Frenchy actually sucked. Johnson didn’t. And Johnson would have been cheaper. I promise you no one in here at least would have been whining about Braves rejects, everyone liked Johnson, and most projections said he was supposed to have a break out year last year when he fell apart, instead it seems like the break out was delayed.
I mean not to be rude, but you really shouldn’t speak for the board if you weren’t here during the off-season. Cause most of these moves you’re talking about hindsight were moves people here advocated.
Also how many teams actually regularly produce pitching out of the minors? We’ve produced Pelfrey, Parnell and Niese, which isn’t impressive but I’d imagine isn’t significantly worse than average.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
see below: "I don't remember anyone championing Kelly Johnson in the off-season."
and I still don’t think you can take a guy from the Diamondbacks and put him on the Mets and expect the same results. Your other moves really wouldn’t have been that terrific, in all likelihood. If we have Joel Pineiro, we’re a contender? Really? If that’s the case, Omar’s not doing too shabby a job.
Re: pitching. We don’t want to be an “average” team. We want to be a winning team. The jury is very much out on Pelfrey as being anything other than a marginal big league starter. Niese doesn’t have much of a track record either, though I like what I see. If you’re citing Bobby Parnell, that’s pretty pathetic. Our best product has been Heath Bell. Or Jason Vargas?
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
see below where?
and what does arizona have to do with it? He was a good player in Atlanta, he’s a good player period who happened to have one off year and was expected by projections to break out.
And with Joel Piniero/Jon Garland and Kelly Johnson taking the starts we gave to Maine and Perez and Kelly Johnson playing instead of Castillo/Tejada/Cora we’d be a decidedly better team.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I know people wanted Garland signed
because I was one of those people. Pineiro I think I grudgingly supported signing in some idiotic Metsblog poll.
You also need to remember that Omar was on a budget. When I talk about counting Ollie as a sunk cost, I’m talking about replacing him with . . . well, a replacement player. the scary thing is, we would have been better off just doing that from the get-go. I think there’s a difference between (1) recognizing that your big signing sucks and cutting bait, and (2) papering over your mistakes with another big money signing. The Wilpons are afraid of throwing good money after bad, which is probably a good sign that your GM needs to walk the plank.
also according to your profile you joined in April
Kelly Johnson signed with Arizona in December…so how exactly would you know if anyone here was championing him in the off-season?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
by Gina on Aug 3, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks, but
you will indeed search in vain for me saying “no one on Amazin Avenue wanted Kelly Johnson”, or anything similar (except for my quote of “rigsay.”)
Also, if you’re going to “rec” something like this, James, you should poke your head out of your shell. :)
yeah I misquoted
does the point not still stand? That people in here wanted Johnson and no one was going to think he was another Braves off-cast? There’s literally no comparison to him and Frenchy. And he’s only making 2 million this year and would have been under team control for another year.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Poke your head out of your shell?
I’m right here. See my comment response to Rigsay. Might as well have been a comment response to yours as well, I didn’t want to double up the same comment in one thread.
I’m not a fan of people talking out of their ass, especially for the sake of being a devil’s advocate. (“if Johnson had been signed, we’d have been wondering why the hell Omar was obsessed with picking up Braves rejects”…“I don’t remember anyone championing Kelly Johnson in the off-season.” — yes, you didn’t actually write it but you posted it). It resulted in a “rec” of a comment calling out that sort of thing. NBD.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 3, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
THWAKKKK!
Obviously, there’s no way to tell whether or not Omar would have been criticized for signing Johnson, because he didn’t do it. My educated guess is that it would have been criticized reflexively by many. I’ll grant that at least you, Gina, and Sam Page would have liked the move, and may have called for it at the time. (I’m still not sure he becomes a star here, but I remember liking him and wondering how the hell he ended up in Arizona. That doesn’t mean I was conscious that he was even on the market, or would have wanted him signed. I was probably spending much of that time building a straw effigy of Jay Cutler to burn. I will say that I’ve been a big ABC “Anyone But Castillo” guy since ’07, however.)
Your "educated guess"
Sounds a lot like most everybody else’s “wild-ass speculation on the conditional past.”
IIRC, there were a few “Hey— Kelly Johnson’s available”-type comments here at/around the time of his release from Atlanta, but no in-depth looks… mostly because he doesn’t (or hasn’t, anyway) played short, and folks were thinking about a versatile Cora alternative (a la Kennedy, Lopez, etc.).
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 3, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
Ankiel has been injured most of this year, Synder has almost identitcal numbers to Barajas (and wasn’t good enough for the Dbacks) and I don’t remember anyone championing for Kelly Johnson in the off-season. Yes we were all on the Lopez bandwagon, but the guy hasn’t been all that impressive this year (yes, anyone is better than Slappy/Cora).
Certainly we should have nabbed Pineiro but the starting pitching really hasn’t been the problem this year. I liked Garland also but no one knew he would be this good and Penny is about as inconsistent as Ollie used to be
the jury is still very very much out on Bay
He could easily turn things around in year 2 and beyond, like Beltran did
by Mike Clemente on Aug 2, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is reasonable...
But I wouldn’t count on it. Weird that we’ve come to expect that experienced players with big contracts need a waiting year before catching on in NY.
I want Bay to hit now, not 3 years fro…..Ah forget it.
Re: Championing for Kelly Johnson
Sam Page, Non-Tendered Players Of Note, 12/13/09
Kelly Johnson—Since Mike Fontenot got a contract, Kelly Johnson is my new guy. He’s got all the makings of a good bench-guy: left-handed and defensively versatile. As a second baseman, Johnson has the bat for the position, but a suspect glove, basically what you might expect from the Daniel Murphy 2B project that never was, and not my dream replacement for Castillo. Still, given his nice combination of discipline and power, “platooning” him with Castillo and using him to spell Francoeur versus the occasional righty would be effective. If the Mets sign KJ, I predict he takes Castillo’s job no latter than June.
A reading from the Prophet Page
by James Kannengieser on Aug 2, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
one note
the beginning goes “Since Mike Fontenot got a contract, Kelly Johnson is my new Guy”, so Mike Fontenot was wanted more that Kelly Johnson, so…..shoulda woulda coulda
???
Johnson wasn’t non-tendered until December 12th, the post is on the 13th. So the post came out less than 24 hours after Johnson became available. Didn’t make sense to seriously discuss signing him back in October or November, did it?
Nice debut comment, welcome aboard.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 3, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
The Matt Capps suggestion
looks a lot better.
Anyway, I’m sure every free agent was discussed by someone at some time. My sense is that Omar was on a budget, and pretty much had to sink or swim with Castillo at two-nd — Fred and Jeff probably told him to, and there were probably some “damn wells” in the conversation, and references to “sleeping in the bed you made.” Omar may have responded with references to removing one’s nose out of spite directed at one’s face. ANYWAY, they weren’t able to pay Johnson (a pittance) because there would be no one to back up Reyes. (COUGH! replacement player COUGH!) They also couldn’t offer him a starting job.
Why couldn't they have paid Lopez then?
he’d be a back up SS and I don’t even think he was originally guaranteed a starting job with the Cards, I think it wasn’t until Ryan fell off a cliff that he got it.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
If by similar to Barajas,
you meant, ridiculously better in every way possible in all facets of the game then I would have to agree.
Omar is just not capable of being comprehensive in his approach---
Remember-he can only do one thing at a time.
This model
is the Omar Model, and it has been for several years. It is really just the same loser over and over. Omar’s plan—if he has a plan, shich I have always doubted—is this flawed model for success. Jerry was incompetent at birth. They do not know how to build and operate a winner. CAn someone finally come to this conclusion in this star -crossed front office. Hello in there!!!
Omar has a plan and his plan--
he likes his plan.
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Aug 2, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
i wanna get on matt for his comments to the post he linked about improving the mets
he said jose reyes needs to get his act together…sure, hitting .314 in june and following it up with a .310 in july sucks. he had a hit in all but 2 games in july, and i am willing to bet those two games were right handed versus a righty pitcher. it would be nice if he walked more, yes. and it would be nice if he was stealing more and getting extra base hits more, but he has not been the problem of late
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
by astromets on Aug 2, 2010 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
That was absurd
His inclusion of Frankie didn’t make much sense either
by Bieser's Balk on Aug 2, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I left Metsblog long ago. His opinions were way off the wall sometimes.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 2, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Reyes
Since May 22: 235 PA, .335/.371/.523/.894
Once he got healthy and comfortable, he’s been vintage Reyes with a little less plate discipline. His other bad patch since May, he was playing with the oblique. Anyone who thinks Reyes is the problem is a moron, really.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 2, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
it reyes' defense which is the issue, not his offense
I feel like with his ability, speed, quickness, and arm, the guy should be a year in and year out +10 defender, and he’s been negative the last two years. That’s what worries me.
by Mike Clemente on Aug 2, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose needs to stop hitting before the guys behind him don't get him home.
I mean seriously Jose, time your OB chances better. Jeez.
Great post, Sam
I think you hit the nail on the end, with regards to blaming players. Why does Carlos Beltran or David Wright or Jose Reyes get blamed for hurting team chemistry or for not doing enough, when the obvious problem is that we have a lineup with 3 automatic outs. That is the fault of Omar Minaya and Jeff Wilpon.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
If the players are always responsible-if the management cannot hit or pitch--
then I guess it is Omar Forever. Hmmmm. Convenient.
As long as we're piling on
I’m planning on doing a Fanpost on this when I have more time, but part of the reason the Mets lose (particularly in close games) is that their players are simply employed objectively incorrectly. One of Jerry’s most consistently egregious errors involves platoon splits. Basically, Jerry often employs lefty/righty matchups with virtually complete disregard for whether or not they exist. To cherry-pick a few examples:
Jesus Feliciano has pretty negligible platoon splits (Career minor league stats: .700 OPS vs lefties, .737 against righties). Chris Carter has more pronounced splits, but has been solid in the minors against both sides (.793 vs lefties, .896 vs righties), and the splits largely stem from power, not OBP. Conversely, Jeff Franceour, as we all know, has extremely pronounced splits and is generally woeful against righties (Career major league OPS: .769 against lefties, .622 against righties).
Yet Frenchy has played largely every day all year (91 PAs vs lefties, 273 vs righties) notwithstanding the dramatic platoon splits. Conversely, in their brief time here, Feliciano and Carter have hit almost exclusively against righties (Feliciano: 5 PAs vs lefties, 60 vs righties; Carter: 0 PAs (!!!) vs lefties, 90 vs righties). (For context, about 24 percent of the Mets’ total plate appearances this year are against lefties.)
This is just one anecdotal example, but it shows the extent to which the Mets’ use of certain players defies logic by any measure. Part of the problem, of course, is the Mets’ depending on a player like Frenchy, who is awful against right-handed pitching, to be their starting right fielder. But part of it involves the manager’s failure to evaluate, on a very objective level, the abilities of his players and to use them in a way that maximizes their abilities.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 2, 2010 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This all sounds right and with some more stat digging would make a fine Fanpost.
There is, however, one kind of split that would be interesting in contrast or addition. The split of guys who hit young, untested, pitchers well versus those who don’t, and why. At least if our collective impression is correct, the Mets are turrble against rookie pitchers who really should be in the minors but aren’t for whatever reason. By taking some stat (or stats) to identify these pitchers (or, let’s say under 50 or 100 innings and an ERA over 4, or whatever other metric you think is appropriate), I suspect that some interesting results might come out. I am at a loss as to what these results might be, but if anything does show up it would be a nice complement to the observations above.
The Wilpon Family
I find it interesting that after having an active role in Mets ownership and management for 30 years, and having achieved success in other ventures, that Fred Wilpon seemingly has no clue as to how to operate a business. Unless he’s divested the entire thing to Jeff and is no longer involved, there’s really no excuse for this. If this were a publicy traded company we’d all be heading for the exits.
I'm sure he knows to operate a business
But a sports franchise IMO requires different skill sets. Or at least knowing to hire who does have the skill sets.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
Exactly
Intelligence and business savvy are generally applicable, but they aren’t magical powers. Different industries require different talents, and building and running a sustainable, profitable business — let alone a sports franchise — is not the same as real estate speculation.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Except
Again, one would think that a 30-year association with the Mets and MLB in general would offer sufficient hands-on training and insight into industry trends that could be applied to the running of a successful and winning team. That said, one could glean that the hiring, particularly with respect to the baseball people, has been suspect. I happen to think that the three smartest guys in the organization are in the TV booth
by ColoradoMetsFan on Aug 2, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a common sentiment, unfortunately.
The last guy to be jerked down to a front office for his on camera insights was Matt Millen. (Different sport, but you get the idea.) I’m sure it’s happened in baseball, too.
Anyway, if 30 years in baseball were enough to teach you how to run a team, we’d have more than enough people to run 600 teams successfully. Some people just never learn.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul the Octopus for GM
Omar must be making moves by pasting baseball cards to potato chip bags and recording which ones he reaches for. “OOOOOOH — ranch! Vesting option for Cora!”
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The nice thing about this idea....
Is that most species of octopus live no more than 2 years. This means that we won’t have the never-ending GM problem.
If someone wants to MS Paint
Paul the Octopus with Omar’s head, I wouldn’t object. I’m too lazy/non Paint-savvy.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Ask, and you shall receive.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Aug 2, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This Octopus...
Picked North Korea to win the World Cup.
Niccccccce.
The NK players were subjected to a six hour public shaming, which was considered getting off lightly. The coach was essentially forced into hard labor. I’d like to make a joke about what should happen to Omar, but perhaps totalitarianism and paranoid, pathologically narcissistic and megalomaniacal dictators with nukes shouldn’t be a laughing matter.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is that true?
If so I feel bad for the NK players…
Very yes
It is true, but North Koreaologists (there is no such term, but I miss the term “sovietologist”) suggested that, in the past, the players might have been thrown into prison. So it’s a kinder, gentler tyranny.
Also, under Saddam Hussein
and his nutso sons, the late Uday and Qusay, RIT (Rest In Torment), “underperforming” Iraqi athletes were tortured in various sadistic ways.
Of course, what I overlooked
is that the actual German octopus was right.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Bob Brenly?
Didn’t Bob Brenly come out of the booth to lead the Diamondbacks to a WS? Most likely that’s the exception that proves the rule.
by ColoradoMetsFan on Aug 2, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Kind of like Wright and Reyes
are our exceptions that prove the rule that we never produce players like Wright and Reyes. (Please, Ike, please!!!!)
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
eh I just hope Ike is average to above average
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
i can't imagine him not being above average...
his D is playing out much better than I had anticipated, even though everyone was saying how good it was. His power should only grow over the next 3-4 years, and hopefully his plate discipline catches up
by Mike Clemente on Aug 2, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
well 1b has extremely high average offensive expectations
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Dierker
Came out of the booth to preside over the winning Astros teams of the late ’90s (4 playoff years out of 5, .556 winning pct.), using a hands-off approach, specifically giving his runners the green light, bunting very rarely, and frequently letting his starters pitch into the 7th or 8th.
(sigh)
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 3, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Fred hasn't really had an active role for 30 years
he was only a 1% or so owner until after 86 when he became 50% owner through some sort of loophole.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Also someone else broke down
most of their money came from real estate and basically getting lucky and selling at the right time. Also Jeff is clearly a moron and it seems like he’s been the acting president most of this century.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I don't
agree with the hate for alex cora. In reality cora is supposed to be a guy that spells our middle infield and in dire situations our corner infielders and outfielders… However he has not been that player, he has been the guy who has to play nearly 80 of our first 100+… Cora’s value is as a versatile position player… Not as a superstar bench player… As for his rant in the locker room, good for him… it seems that some of the players on this team don’t get that losing consistently to bad teams is no joke… There is too much job security…
I hate to bring up the yankees considering i hate them with a passion, but would omar, manuel still be here if Steinbrenner was running the team? Absolutely not. If I’m wilpon i would have fired them the minute i didn’t make the playoffs, last year is an exception with the injuries, but to collapse like they have in consecutive years these jokers should be gone…
And you know what happens if he plays 80?
Hint, starts with a V.
Cora would be fine at $500k for one year on the right team.
But we’re paying him $2MM/year for two years, have to rely on him when Reyes (coming off an injury) and Castillo (sucks, always injured) are on the team.
If we had a good 2B who played 140 games, and weren’t wasting 1000 PAs to date on guys who hit like Cora, yeah, fine. Give him $500k and make him the 25th guy. But that’s not this team.
Cora has been below replacement level, and that's all that really needs to be said.
All the at-bats he’s gotten has made it worse, for sure. But the point is that there are better and cheaper players easily available.
eh he's kind of horrible even as a versatile middle infielder
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Problem is you cann't have 2 aging Middle infielders for the Same position
Plus he is overpaid for what he gives
If he's a "versatile bench player"
how come he can’t play any position well? The guy is below average at 2nd base (his natural position) and terrible at SS. I understand that he’s old but umm…well, hello…HE’S OLD! That should be a reason NOT to sign a guy…he’s old, can’t hit and can’t field. Apparently 0 tool players garner $2 million dollars these days.
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Aug 2, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a great idea!
Let’s cheer for us getting swept by Atlanta! That way, not only do we see the increasing chances for Jerry and Omar’s inevitable departures but also that Philadelphia gets pissed off!
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
Thats's crazy enough to actually work
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 2, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
didnt jeff have the chance to fire him in atlanta way back when?
we in atlanta again failpons, dont miss this great opportunity!
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
also
i was really hoping to hear that jerry got a call from omar at like 330am after landing in ATL that he was fired
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Yea, but its operating hours are between 2 and 3 in the morning.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 2, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
omar only makes phonesex calls these days apparently
according to brockrocks
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Yes, and then someone mentioned that it doesnt make sense to make a phone call to your hand.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 2, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, I like it
We get pushed back, but so do the Marlins and Phillies, and if we go to over 10 games back and are swept by Atlanta, maybe we get rid of Jerry? Oh, god, I hardly dare contemplate. I would be so, so happy.
meh i doubt it
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
hmmm
We’d probably lose anyway. Why not
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I was thinking about this the other day
I weirdly was okay with rooting for the Phillies in the World Series last year after thinking it through. If I imagine the Braves vs Yanks, I think I might actually go for the Yanks. I still hate the Braves on a whole other level than the Phils.
I begrudgingly found myself rooting for the Philthies last WS as well
and I would probably find myself rooting for the Braves if they went against the Yankees as I at least respect the Braves Org.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Yanks all the way, for me
I despise the Phillies.
Oh, believe me, I despise them as well
It’s just physically impossible for me to root for the Yankees.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I was pulling for the end of the world
Thanks in part to giant raccoons, zombie Hitlers, and one big ass flaming fart.
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
The Life of Mets Fans:
It makes us happy to tank games, for the sake of the future.
Consequences will never be the same.
part of me wants to root hard for a comeback
but i know we cant do that with jerry and i dont want another season wasted with him at the helm, and part of me wants us to tank hard and get a nice draft spot for next season so we can get more good young players. none of me understands why we didnt seem to make any attempt to see what pedro feliciano would have netted us in a trade before the deadline – there had to be someone out there willing to make a wilson ramos trade
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
eh would you leave the rays
to come work for the wilpons
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Yes...
Where else can you have better job security?
Right now I think it is Chemistry
Its the Chemistry created by Bringing back a train wreck like Ollie
are you sure its not the bad pitching and wasted bullpen spot
created by bringing back a train wreck like Ollie?
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 2, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't have to go out of our way to discount chemistry
Suffice it to say, the Ollie move ain’t going to improve the talent level, and ain’t going to warm the cockles in the locker room.
by tmu on Aug 2, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want to see them try
take a shot and make a move, try and become better at some point. that is what I want, if it doesn’t work OK but try. It is heart wrenching to have an ownership/GM with no heart to win, for a fan base that has too much heart
can ollie hit and Frenchy pitch?
just a radical thought.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
And this is what we have come to...
Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2010 New York Mets.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
