Did The 2006 Mets Have Swagger, Arrogance And Condescension Toward Opponents?
by James Kannengieser on Aug 6, 2010 4:19 PM EDT
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PrintHere is the pertinent excerpt from a piece by Andy Martino of the Daily News, "'Too nice' New York Mets would do well to pick up some swagger from arrogant, condescending Phillies":
This is what characterizes the Phillies of this era, and what separates them from the Mets:
Swagger. Arrogance. Condescension toward opponents.
Sigh. I'd agree with Andy -- if he replaced "swagger", "arrogance" and "condescension toward opponents" with "talent", "good players" and "Chase Utley". The idea here is that swagger breeds winning. I happen to believe it's the other way around. Assemble a playoff caliber roster, make the postseason for a couple years and BOOM!: swagger up the ying-yang.
This meme has been propagated over and over since September 2007 and addressing each instance has grown tiresome. But it did make me think -- when the Mets were awesome in 2006, what was the perception of the team? Did people (fans, media, whomever) say they had swagger, arrogance, etc.? I spent much of that season living outside New York so I don't know how the newspaper guys felt about that group's intangibles. Please share any memories related to this. Notable columns from that season would be a bonus.
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Well this is just me thinking off the top of my head
But I remember in “Shea Goodbye” David Wright saying they had a “certain swagger” that year. I’m guessing he’s not the only one who felt that way. I just thought they were actually good…
by wrightttxgirlllx3 on Aug 6, 2010 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
To a degree, yes
They had Lo Duca, who has all those intangibles that everyone loved. And Jose had an awesome year and wasn’t afraid to show it (amazing how, when you do well, exhuberance and enthusiasm are “swagger” but when you don’t, they’re immaturity"). Floyd was something of badass too, as was Wagner . And until he got hurt, they had Pedro.
That being said, they had most of those players in 2007, as well as Lastings Milledge, who could certainly swagger with the best of them, and it didn’t seem to make a difference. Funny that.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 4:31 PM EDT reply actions
Amazing how LoDuca's intangibles disappeared in 2007
As Willie began playing Castro more. At least Willie didn’t go with intangibles over production.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Yup
For all Willie’s faults, the lineup he put out there on the last day of 2007 was the best one he could put out there; it included Castro (the better hitting catcher) and Milledge) his best RF at the time.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Also in 2006 many had career years, When you look at Jose Valentin to get that production
out of 2b. That kind of offense at that position disappeared when Castillo took over.
they rose because of grission and mojo?
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
No
They drank a big fucking bottle of talent juice.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
i would love some talent juice right now
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Aug 6, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's a little citrusy
for my taste. I prefer the nutty, whole wheat goodness of grission.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
But we're agreed that it would be
an English dark ale. This is progress!
Something like Boon gueuze could also be grission. that will take three epithelial layers off your throat.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
it needs to be English, dark, and so gritty you feel like you just swollowed a wheat farm.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
When I think English, grission isn't what comes immediately to mind.
Weak chins and naughty-boy fetishes are what comes to mind.
(No offense intended toward actual Brits, of course.)
I think British people
feel like there is a high national grission quotient, mostly because we’re not really good at anything, so we have to get by on character and persistence
yea, the British are pussies
of course, I don’t know what that makes the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Indians, the Chinese, and pretty much every indigenous population around the world, the vast majority of whom were, at one point or another, subjected to British rule.
2009 Did Not Happen
yea
“every indigenous population” is a stretch, but I meant it more in the sense of every continent – they had a large chunk of Africa, North America, Asia, & Australia, and even some parts of South America.
And, of course, they’ve beaten every major European power the most recent time they’ve fought. I forgot to mention Russia in my first post, but the Crimean War means I get to include them, too. The Brits have this reputation in America as being dainty and not tough, but it’s a really undeserved reputation. The Brits kick ass (except ours, of course…1776! 1812! USA! USA! USA!)
2009 Did Not Happen
They were feared until about the 1830s or so...
Even in the Civil War this bubbled to the surface, as the Confederacy’s attempts to bring the British in, or at least to support blockade running, were a huge issue.
too much passion
not enough grit
still damn tasty tho.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
i'd say depends on the falvor
but purple grape MD and thunderbird are about as grissiony as it gets
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Grape it is.
i FEAR that bottle when it shows up at a party. Its so purple but so tempting. I MUST SWIG FROM IT.! then
I hate Philadelphia so much.
i would attend the crap out of that grission party
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Aug 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
who doesn't love a good nutty beverage
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
They definitely had a swagger
Confidence permeated all their games, and they had a lot of fun. They owned the league, and it was as if they were laughing about it (to other teams). Of course, that gave the opposition a reason to seek “revenge” by beating the Mets as they regressed and brought in Jeff Francoeur.
I didn’t find the group “too nice” at all; just a little bit arrogant. Still by winning 97 games and sweeping the first round of the playoffs, who could blame them?
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
yeah, this
confidence = swagger
confidence can only come from winning.
winning can only come from having talent on the ML roster.
the circle of life is complete.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
by fxcarden on Aug 6, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Characterizing the argument a bit more fairly,
It’s a feedback loop. You build momentum with swagger. It’s not either/or. if you have the right group, winning can beget winning. If you don’t, you tend not to build off your wins, you lose focus, etc. There’s no direct evidence of this, nor can there be (people like to cite the two or three instances in the last 50 years where a cahmpionship team appeared to “hate each other”, which is really beside the point.) But it’s really about the players and their approach. These Mets would have a hard time just “switching on” the swagger.
I'm not being a dick
But I have no idea what any of this means.
The 2010 Mets can’t “switch on” the swagger. Fine. Assuming that’s true — could the 2006 Mets do it? And if so, is that why they were successful?
by James Kannengieser on Aug 6, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And also
if the Mets showed “swagger” now, how would it be interpreted? If Wright hit a homer, ran around the basis glaring at the pitcher, then stood on home plate, Victorino-style, before grabbing his crotch, spitting at the catcher, and questioning the parental lineage of the third-base coach, what exactly would people think when we’re 8 or 9 games out of first?
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, that guy is a douche
How do people identified “swagger”? From quotes after the game or how intricate the team celebration is?
by EtSuKe on Aug 6, 2010 4:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
More seriously
It’s just about momentum/ chemistry/ intangibles, etc. It’s really all ways of saying the same thing: the 2010 Mets have lost their mojo. They’re flat, and don’t have the mental makeup to rise above the sum of their parts. I doubt he’s saying that all winning teams have swagger and all teams with swagger are winning teams. He’s not an idiot. I think.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
is it that they don't have the mental make up
or they just can’t? I mean is there any evidence of teams that had a rough slide actually “rising above the sum of their parts”, as in teams with .500 level type talent performing well above that after a rough slide back to .500?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I don't know what kind of evidence you want
Because a winning team always scores more runs than the teams they’re beating. With your premise that numbers are always the result of “talent”, presented with that data, your argument would assume its conclusion.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
not really
you could use pre season projections as a measure of talent. If a team expected to win like 5-15 less games than they end up winning it would be an example of such.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
like the 2005 white sox might be a perfect example
but I have no idea if they ever went through a massive slide
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
You mean durign the season?
I don’t think they did, but every team has some losing streaks.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but I mean a team
that ended the season wildly exceeding expectations, like the white sox, and one where they didn’t do it because of a bunch of young prospects hitting stride (like the rays/rockies/d-backs of recent years wouldn’t fit the bill), the sox were a perfect example of a team rising well above the sum of their parts.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Oh of course
those teams don’t fit the bill because . . . well, why again don’t the Rockies fit the bill?
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
well I said they don't fit the bill because their success was the result
of young players. it’s like if a bunch of 5 star prospects came up at one time, which is pretty much what happened with all those teams, you’d expect them to start off slow and then eventually catch on, which is what those teams did, where as with the white sox that was literally a team that played, like you said above, well above the sum of your parts. A bunch of guys who had been mediocre for years, and mediocre afterwards who weren’t young players expected to become elite players or eventually form an elite team. The Rockies n 07 had tulo and francis come up, and it was the first year Holliday really started to become an elite player. I mean if you included every team that’s success was the result of prospects, it would kind of heavily bias the question, unless you assume all prospects have swagger+attitude.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
the Angels
have consistently outperformed their projections. Mike Sciocsia for Dictator of Mets!
2009 Did Not Happen
He's just saying what you are
without denying that swagger could ever benefit a team. I would state it as:
“Cockiness can help, but what do the Mets have to be cocky about?”
my high school football team went 0-10
and we couldn’t possibly been more arrogant or have had more condescension toward our opponents.
i hate this nonsense. they’re god damn grown men paid to pay baseball. they’re also all from disparate cultures and backgrounds. can we please leave their friggin feelings and clubhouse mojo out the friggin analysis?
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Aug 6, 2010 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I'm very confused
I was told that the Mets’ swagger and condescension (namely Milledge and Reyes) was the reason the Marlins were motivated to beat them in the non-devastating Game 162 of 2007.
by Bieser's Balk on Aug 6, 2010 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for truthiness
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
by squid92 on Aug 6, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In my experience
Condescension towards opponents is the key to winning.
by EtSuKe on Aug 6, 2010 4:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I hate the MSM
The 2006 Mets were arrogant, because they won a lot of games, which led to confidence, and eventually led to arrogance.
You know what makes this so much more ridiculous??? After the end of 2007, people criticized the Mets for being TOO arrogant, for thinking they were too good.
It makes no sense.
Yet, as long as the media believes in this shit, fans who don’t know any better will believe in it as well.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Good play...
breeds confidence..confidence breeds swaggeror can be mistaken for swagger.
right now the Mets lack complete confidence. No one is confident that any lead is safe, or that they can come back and win if down late.
RP come in a try to be too precise with a big lead, make a lot of pitches, walk guys because they are trying for the strikeout and give up runs. The BAA and WHIPs are bad even if the ERAs aren’t. A lot of pitches
Hitters don’t change their approach in the 7th inning or beyond, mets hitters need to foul off some pitches (that is what Thole did well in his PH)
finally, the D seems to make bad timing errors. for instance in Pelfrey last start. That was a big error by Reyes in the 5th. Pelfrey has a 1-2-3 inning if he makes that play. instead he faces 4 more batter, 2 BB, 1 HBP, 1 2B and 2 runs score
Braves up 5-2
next inning the wheels came off 3 more errors.
this has happened a few times during July and now August. the D has to pick up the pitchers when they are struggling, no one is picking up the other
nothing is timely, nothing is horrible but the timing of things
If Martino is serious, I would like him to demonstrate the following:
1) That the Phillies have swagger and the Mets don’t. This must be specific, accurate, and factual
2) That swagger, arrogance, and condescension have an effect on winning baseball games and how large the effect is
3) That swagger, arrogance, and condescension do not simply come from winning
4) How/where a team gets swagger, arrogance, and condescension from
by EtSuKe on Aug 6, 2010 5:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Oh please
This is ridiculous. You don’t need a double-blind controlled study to prove that swagger=wins to posit that the Mets lack mental toughness and that it’s hurting the team. You can have Billy Beane, and I’ll take Pat Gillick. We’ll see who wins. Oh wait — we already did.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So basically you're saying
That there isn’t proof for this stuff, just that “I know it when I see it”. That’s fine, I just don’t have any interest in discussing the topic much further with someone who says that. Others do like discussing it. No big deal.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 6, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm saying
that people don’t make decisions based solely on controlled studies. this is why economists don’t (successfully) run businesses. They are consulted, yes, but there are a variety of inputs that are considered.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed on that count
Successful organizations need Pat Gillick types around.
In most cases, I believe opinion without evidence = worthless. Martino’s article cites a few anecdotes of Phillies toughness and passes it off as support for his hypothesis. I’m sure plenty of similar anecdotes about the recent Mets teams are out there too. He presents nothing compelling in his article to back up his lede. Hence I think it’s worthless.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 6, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell, just a few of the stories about Carter should be enough anecdotal evidence.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I think losing consistently and consistently appearing to not give a shit...
Is evidence on our end. As for the Phillies, they have made changes, albeit they may have been merely cosmetic. They fired their hitting coach, pretty much the definition of cosmetic, but at least it’s something. An argument does not have to present evidence if such evidence is otherwise apparent. The Phillies and their fans are pissed. The Mets, and many fans not regulars here, seem to share no such anger (the “I want the mansion” guy notwithstanding).
I think non-regulars here are angrier than AA people
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I think what I was trying to say....
Is that sure, people are angry, but those same people were happy during the streak in June. They are angry not so much because of consistently bad baseball, but because of losses. I’ve been angry all through as a general matter. Thus the blowback on Wright etc. Abd Mets fans are fairly meek compared to Philly fans. I was with a bunch of friends from Philly who started a stirring rendition of “Fly Eagles Fly” leaving the Brooklyn Brew House last year. I mean, c’mon.
those who can't do, teach?
there’s some truth to that, but a lot of top economist/professors are quite good at doing both.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Also
I think most people might have had less of a rough time in the last two years if it had been economists running certain businesses instead of completely unqualified cowboys
by deadspy3 on Aug 6, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
cowboys? the wilpons aren't cool enough to be cowboys
jerrah jones is a cowboy.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I was mainly talking about banks
but agreed, the Wilpons would only be cowboys in the ‘City Slickers’ sense
Whoa.
it was the “quants” who arguably fucked everything up. (Or a large part of it.)
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well if that's the case, they didn't deserve their qualifications as
quants experts. Of course there were a myriad of factors in play, but my understanding of it is that it was more a failure of management, i.e. the chain of command turned a blind eye to the activities of traders, and that had the management undertaken economic due diligence the crisis would have been on a much smaller scale.
there was a quant championing every scenario possible
that guy with the book about black swans for instance. also read michael lewis’ book the big short.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Yes, the quants fucked everything up...
Because they confused mathematical certainty with social certainty, and confused their own certainty in the basic soundness of their assumptions with actual certainty. Sounds like something I may have heard of…
I don't really agree with that
unless you can guarantee that the economists are not also greedy f*cks. Unfortunately, I think hundreds of thousands of years of human history proves that people in positions of power abuse said power, no matter how smart they are
2009 Did Not Happen
You think just maybe
the 2006 team’s success vis-a-vis this team’s had something to do with
(1) Delgado at 1B instead of Davis taking his rookie lumps
(2) a productive Lo Duca at C instead of Barajas and his sub-.300 OBP
(3) a surprisingly excellent Valentin at 2B instead of various horrendous options
(4) a largely healthy Floyd (or even Green) in the OF instead of Frenchy
(5) a superstar version of Beltran in CF instead of a shell of his former self
(6) a tremendous bullpen including Wagner, Oliver, Bradford, Feliciano, Heilman, Mota (!) and Sanchez (until the injury) instead of guys like Nieve, Dessens, and Ollie
(7) a pitching rotation that included Pedro (for part of the year), Glavine, Maine, El Duque (for most of the year), and a decent Traschsel instead of our current crop
(8) a decent bench including Woodward, Castro, and Franco instead of Cora and co.
Nah, it must be the swagger.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 5:01 PM EDT reply actions
Occam's razor
The explanation with the fewest assumptions is usually the correct one.
The Mets problem is not a lack of chemistry, swagger, confidence, leadership, etc. Simple stated, the problem is the these Mets are just not very talented. And what is really scary is they were worse at the beginning of the year (Matthews, Jacobs). Whoever put this team together should be shot.
There are like 7 or 8 current Mets players that should not be on any major league team, let alone on one of the highest payroll teams in the league. I really get frustrated that anyone can actually watch a game and not see that.
by George_Sloan on Aug 6, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to get murdered here...
But, in 2006 and the first half of 2007, yeah, the Mets were considered cocky assholes. Jose Reyes was seen as rubbing success in the faces of the teams he played, for instance. I remember in 2006 (Or perhaps 2007?), when Pedro came to Philadelphia to pitch against the Phillies, he really got rocked in like, 3.1 innings (And I want to say went on the DL immediately after) I was at the game. There were Mets fans all over the stadium, saying some pretty derisive things about the Phillies and their fans, calling Citizen’s Bank Park “Shea South” and a nice place to go see the Mets play for cheap.
A lot of that attitude has vanished, and while I have yet to go up to Citi to see a game, I was at the Nationals’ park this spring for Opening Day, and the amount of Phillies fans were… Staggering. And frankly? They were petty rude. The stadium erupted in boos for each player the Nationals announced on their opening day. I’m sure sometime soon, the shoe will be on the other foot for Philadelphia, which is why I think I am enjoying it while it lasts, particularly because I was there before the success, and I’ll be there after. The rest are really just Eagles fans who don’t know dick about baseball, just want to hitch their wagons to a “winner”. :P
Oh and...
Another incident that springs to mind: In late August of ’07, the Phillies made that pretty unbelievable sweep of the Mets in Philadelphia. At the end of the game, the stadium was just out of control. I honestly think it was the most exciting series played by this group of Phillies, even bigger than the World Series[es]. It was just electric, and each game was so close.
When that final game ended, after Utley brought Iguchi home on that single to win the game, the players were on the field, celebrating like crazy, it was nuts. Lo Duca was quoted as saying “They’re dancing on the field today, but we’ll be the ones celebrating come October”, while Willie Randolph made that horrible quote that came back to bite him in the ass about the champagne being all the sweeter.
So yeah, there was swagger and arrogance. It just comes with winning.
by JamesFromPhilly on Aug 6, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i imagine the attitude has vanished because of 2007, 2008 and 2009
the real question should be if attitude made such a difference why didn’t it matter in 07/08 when by most reports they still had swagger?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
One curveball
By all accounts that game 6 devastated them.
They also didn’t get the seriosu challenge in ’06 that they had in ’07.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but by all accounts
they weren’t devastated in the beginning of 07, they had all the swagger and arrogance to begin the season they had ending 06.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Well, it wasn't the curveball then
But it was the result of letting a few fluky defeats to the Philth snowball.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd buy it was a fluke if...
They didn’t go back to the World Series in 2009.
by JamesFromPhilly on Aug 6, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
oh come on
that fucking blown call at 2nd base literally changed the course of history. If that run scores, the Mets could have won the game, which a) would have completely changed the momentum of that series and maybe season, and b) even if everything else happened the same the rest of the year, they would have finished tied and played a game 163. Yea, the Phillies were much hotter than the Mets, but in one game anything can happen (and don’t make it out like the Phillies “owned” the Mets – every single one of those games was close enough that it was a complete fluke the Phillies won all of them).
2009 Did Not Happen
Flukes.
We haz them. If we hadn’t sucked for a month before, it never would have been an issue. One call can only make a difference if a bunch of games earlier turned out differently. Otherwise it’s “well crap I’m glad we have a 2 game lead or otherwise that wouldn’t have mattered.” I’m not disagreeing with you, just saying that flukes in one game are rarely flukes if viewed in light of a seaon’s worth of games.
yea, I get all that
it doesn’t change the fact that a blown call at second base was literally the difference between the Phillies winning the division during the regular season or needing a 1-game playoff to do so.
2009 Did Not Happen
wait you mean it started after 07?
or mid 07? Cause I can understand if you mean after 07/08 it’s snowballed. But I don’t see how you can argue both that swagger and arrogance made the difference in 06 if it was that easy to decimate it in 07?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I never said that swagger and arrogance made the difference in 2006
Did I? I’m saying that the team was mentally crushed by ‘07, which set the stage for the aftershock of ’08. Honestly, who didn’t see that coming? Everyone blames the bullpen, but in the games they lost at the end of ‘08 they averaged around 2 runs. I realize that’s not rare for losses, but it doesn’t seem like you can blame a bullpen for imploding when, in fact, the offense wasn’t scoring in a number of games.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
which one was it
Inconsistent narratives don’t help your case.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Couldn't agree more with this post
This is exactly what I have experienced since I have been living down here. Before 2008, Mets fans ruled this town. After that collapse in 2007 Philies fans have had the firepower that has embiggened them all.
The Phills
also had “the gang” on their side fueld by riot juice in search of an underground secret passage plus they fought the fanatic.
And some skank selling her body for World Series tickets. so basically screw that town.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
You're just mad...
Charlie isn’t a New Yorker. He’s such a lovable loser.
Anyhow, I’m off for the day. Hopefully tonight’s a good game, best of luck (Well, not that much. I.e. don’t make 4 errors :P) to the Mets.
by JamesFromPhilly on Aug 6, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i have a stance on Philadelphia
The only two good things to ever come from that city are “its always sunny in Philadelphia” and rocky.
otherwise its a waste of space east of New Jersey that supplies me rage and laughter at the same time. Currently in a rage cycle due to Phillies. Laughter forecasted ahead due to the Eagles/Flyers.
fuck fed the troll.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Always Sunny is friggin great
prety much the greatest thing ever. that love in no way translates to philly sports teams tho.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Since this is getting snarky...
its a waste of space east of New Jersey that supplies me rage and laughter at the same time.
Your New York public education system at work, folks.
by JamesFromPhilly on Aug 6, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
all that friggin ocean
is a waste of space.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
don't forget the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence
though it must always be noted that the author/architect of those were both from Virginia, so, fuck Philadelphia.
2009 Did Not Happen
Politely chatting with someone who happens to root for another team
is not “feeding the troll.”
The word
“swagger” is evil.
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
Perhaps the new AA mantra could be
“It’s the talent, stupid” or something along those lines.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 5:34 PM EDT reply actions
whats wrong with
“but you will blow be first” i mean you have to at least give mel credit, its a pithy turn of phrase if nothing else.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
oh boy
Permission to join the “what a stupid premise” parade?
Look, if Tom Glavine doesn’t drop a nutlog in Game 162 and they hold off the Phillies, suddenly the Mets become “resilient survivors” instead of “choke artists” and the whole storyline is dead.
Maybe the Phillies are “arrogant” but if they are, it’s because of teh wynning; they don’t win because they’re arrogant.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
yes
Not to speak out of turn but I think “The Nutlog” might be good shorthand for Game 162 of the Mets 2007 season.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
i second
can i tell a tale of that day. Cause i need closure and i feel this is the best place, among friends.
So ..Tom “nutlog” Glavine takes the hill. I’m thinking we got this. I meet my brother(nonmet fan at the time) and bring my (at the time) new gf to the bar to watch the met game and prepare for the upcoming NY Giants game. So there i am gf,bro, evan the bartender(mets fan) all crowded around a 13 in’ screen preparing for the mets/marlins tilt all the while the rest of the bar is preparing for football.
I start the drinking early cause its the mets who’ve been playing like shit the past month and i’m at a bar and there is football to be had. The drinking quickly escalated as Tom proceeds to shit all over the mound/season/my dreams/ and the mets.
I dont know how much i drank that afternoon. But the football was irrelevant after that. I’d never been so pissed after one game. It still pisses me off and will for some time i believe.
I hate you Tom…i hate you so fucking much.
NUTLOG GAME….piece of atl shit.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Nutlog Tom
is what they called him.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
sad that the football was irrelevant
b/c that was one of the 3 most enjoyable Giants games of my life. My dad had an “epic” double header planned – tickets to the Mets game & the Giants game. The Mets game was so heart-wrenchingly awful that we seriously considered not going to the Giants game, b/c we couldn’t take watching a crappy 1-2 team (who were a goal line stand away from 0-3 the week before) lose to the Philadelphia Eagles. We sucked it up and went, and they sacked McNabb 13 f*cking times. It was the most cathartic experience ever – watching the Giants beat the shit out of McNabb for an hour made me enjoy sports again after the most brutal two week stretch of my life. I remember thinking to myself that night “man, wouldn’t it be awesome if the Giants win the Super Bowl this year – that would actually make up for the Mets choke.” Of course, we all know how that story ends….
But, 3 years later, the awesomeness of that season is fading, and I’m still left with Mets-suck. F-me.
2009 Did Not Happen
This is one of the best posts I've read in a long time...
Because if you replace references to you to me, and remove the thing about the tickets, I could have written it.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 9, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
black ops
I’m still not entirely convinced that Glavine wasn’t a deep cover agent for the Braves who was deployed to do precisely what he did at the end of 2007 for the Mets.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
my buddy's family is good friends with him
they refuse to give me his address in fear of strongly worded letters delivered personally with a side of slap
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Faith and Fear in Flushing
has called him the Manchurian Brave.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 6, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
that's awesome
What does Wilson Valdez intend to do to the Phillies? Oh, is he just going to keep sucking? Okay then.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
I'll trade you Luis Castillo for him
Straight up
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
om nom nom nom
Eat some salary first.
I’m actually very surprised that neither Castillo nor Juan Pierre ever joined the Phillies after the way the 2003 Marlins ran roughshod over the Phillies down the stretch.
http://www.thegoodphight.com
double agent glavine
has been my theory for years. its pretty much a fact now.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
I honestly wish, after he handed the ball to Willie
that he just ripped off his jersey and had a Braves shirt underneath. That really would have made that thing a whole lot easier to stomach, in a weird way. Plus, I mean, that would have just been bad ass, even though it happened to my favorite team. I’d love to see it happen to a team I don’t like. Maybe that’s LeBron’s real plan in Miami…
2009 Did Not Happen
by cjmulrain on Aug 6, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts
there would have been more nuts for the nutlog.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait. Are we talkin bout Soulja Boy Swagga or Swagger by Old Spice?
Consequences will never be the same.
Ah, I see.
Maybe the Mets should just use old spice. Especially Oliver, he is the most stinky.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 6, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
what caveman said
also a day off, a new hitting coach. He’s a mess right now, and it’s not just bad luck his approach seems totally off.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
do any of us actually know that?
you have to be pretty friggin clueless with that bank account.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
No, actually
I think he does reasonably well for himself. If only Phillies’ pitchers were twenty-something women. I mean, besides Cole Hamels.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
"reasonably well"
probably being a massive understatement
i don't really think you have to say much when you make as much money as him
and look like him. He could talk like elmer fudd and I don’t think it would matter
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I will just add the observation
that the 2010 Mets have the fewest come-from-behind wins in baseball.
As in, you were ever behind. As in, 1-0 after the first inning. Ouch.
They also haven't won a road series against an NL opponent
i think thats the most painful stat
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 6, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
if by painful
you mean hilarious
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
by Gina on Aug 6, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah stats like that are why I use the word tragilarious
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 6, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just a stupid statement by the MSM
of course a team that wins a lot and has a great team was confident. Its not like if the Royals started talking trash they’d go undefeated from now on. Correlation =/= causation Andy
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
In fairness
I doubt he’s suggesting that the Royals could start talking trash and go undefeated. He’s saying that if a talented Met team believed in their talent, they might play a little better. Eh. Maybe.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah the problem is we won't know
until we see a talented mets team.
Though I actually think their could be some truth to this as far as Wright’s struggles. it seems like he’s totally changed his approach to try and be what the media wants him to be. Less walks and more free swinging, I guess maybe to hit more homers and/or make more contact in rbi situations.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
yeah we're missing a vital component there
the talented team part. We’ve got some talented players, but not a talented team
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 6, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
His article seems to suggest
that he thinks we have talent, is all.
by tmu on Aug 6, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
well then he's wrong on multiple counts
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Aug 6, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
actually, you're wrong
I think correlation DOES = causation, only it goes the other way. The winning LEADS to the swagger/confidence. He’s just ass-backwards.
Basically, he’s saying that the oil leak is what caused the explosion of Deepwater Horizon.
2009 Did Not Happen
every met win buys
the charlatan another 8 games.
while i agree with most of the posts here
lets remember that not every good team has swagger. certain teams have an attitude that mixes with talent which creates a fearesome product on the field. the phillies of the past few years have that attitude. the 86 mets had that attitude. obviously those teams aren’t just talented, but they go about their business in a certain way that’s almost become legendary. you can be a very good team and not instill that kind of fear in your opponents.
that said, obviously there are plenty of differences between the mets and phillies that has nothing to do with how they carry themselves.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
100% Correct.
Talent matters. A good balance matters. Acting like professionals who care about your jobs matters.
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