Jeff Francoeur And Why I Like Certain Players
Frenchy is gone, but there will be no snark, no cheap jokes. That well has been tapped for the last 14 months or so, there's nothing else really to say. Bad player went on a 2.5 month hot streak in 2009, won the hearts of fans and the front office with his smile, hit like Jason Kendall in 2010 and even in departure the members of the New York media refuse to say a bad word about their best friend. Whatever. The saga leads into another discussion -- why do fans like certain players? More specifically, since I won't speak for others, why do I like certain players?
I'll spell it out in elementary fashion. The Mets winning makes me happy. How do the Mets win? By having good players (David Wright, Jose Reyes), as opposed to bad players (Francoeur, Oliver Perez). Good players --> winning --> happiness. In general, the better a player is, the more I like him. In graph form:
(click to embiggen)
Professional baseball players are not my drinking buddies. I don't know them personally. Cui gives a s**t if Frenchy tells a good knock-knock joke if he's batting .230? If a Met does well to help the team win, I will most likely be a fan. If said player stinks, I will probably not rally around him. It sounds cold but it's reality. I'm emotionally invested in the Mets, but not to the point where I think I'm on a first name basis with the players, or whatever. Angel Pagan isn't coming out to the bar to play Buck Hunter and dominate the jukebox with me this weekend. He'll be on teevee at the bar, hopefully hitting homers and making great catches, leading to much rejoicing.
There are exceptions. Off the field stuff matters (see Francisco Rodriguez on the above graph). I prefer homegrown players (Wright, Reyes, Dwight Gooden). Productive players irrationally hated by the fan base are also favorites (Carlos Beltran, Mike Cameron, Fernando Tatis). Bonus points to things like Carlos Delgado earning the Roberto Clemente Award in 2006 for sportsmanship and community involvement. Ditto Pagan standing by young Jenrry Mejia during interviews, helping the rookie out because English isn't his first language (That's the "good clubhouse guy" stuff that impresses -- not yukking it up about your fantasy football team). But in general, the best fit line on the graph is the norm.
Rational fans want their team to win. This is why I get riled up when I read or hear people say that a Frenchy type is their favorite Met. Even worse, some of these people simultaneously slam the good players on the team. One prominent Mets blogger (who will remain anonymous) consistently praises Alex Cora while calling for the team to cut ties with Reyes. Go away -- I don't want you in my fan base.
There's plenty more to be said here but that's enough for now. Suffices to say, if you praise Jeff Francoeur and Alex Cora for their grittiness, while bashing Jose Reyes, you lose the right to complain about the team not winning.
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A pretty stupid guy, by all accounts...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's a graph of him and three other outfielders who have played some center field the past few years with higher annual salaries tha Voltron


What is WAR?
I fear and hate what I don’t understand.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh,
I feel dumber just reading that.
My point was that those guys were not worth their contracts but because they’re Latino players he gave them the deals.
Am I a bad person if I say he should diaf?
Is the sun going to come up tomorrow?
The single dumbest Mets fan on Earth
I went back and forth with him a couple of times, and the dude just has a beyond irrational hatred of Beltran.
I stopped replying to him because his responses hurt my brain too much.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
This is a murderable offense IMHO
Franco was like 100. Frenchy is young & has saved runs with his defense. Rather him then poison like Beltran (emphasis mine), Castillo & Ollie
He's (apparently, I don't understand Twitter all that much)
arguing with Metsmerized about Beltran, and Metsmerized is being the sensible one. When Metsmerized is the sensible side in an argument…Wow…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
If I'm following the conversation correctly:
MM: we traded a player in Francoeur who wasnt coming back and got a 26YO 2B who is better than Tejada/Castillo right now.
MM: CONT: That’s not about getting a Latino player, it’s about common sense trades and winning baseball games.
GP: this guy has been injured most of his career & francouer is one of the better outfielders. And he’s a good clubhouse presence
MM: Julio Franco was good clubhouse presence too, but once the umpire says play ball, does that really matter?
GP: Franco was like 100. Frenchy is young & has saved runs with his defense. Rather him then poison like Beltran, Castillo & Ollie
MM: What matters most is what happens in between the white lines, lets face it, he’s been slumping badly, he batted .190 since ASB.
GP: the whole team has been horrible since ASB. That was when saint Beltran returned.
What a moron…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
And people wonder why I'm a misanthropist...
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
when Metsmerized is the sensible one
You know you need to stop talking
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Can we trade Greg Pomes to the Nats for Rob Dibble?
Another shit for lesser shit swap…
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 1, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Francoeur above or below the average line?
It hard to tell with half his face out of the picture. He would be very far below my line.
what is Buck Hunter?
and where is Mr. Koo? I open a link that says ‘i like certain players,’ there better be some Mr. Koo.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
so i suppose mr koo
is at the bar waiting for these ladies to get back with his drink?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 1, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Was never a Buck Hunter fan
But I think it’s now my favorite because it’s THE BEST GAME EVAR!
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
The third musketeer
In the trio including Brock Landers and Chest Rockwell.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 1, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I was trying to form words about how the general fanbase, and the mainstream media disappoint me, and disgust me,
but I could not formulate anything coherent, other than a general sense of disgust and anger.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions
This:
Suffices to say, if you praise Jeff Francoeur and Alex Cora for their grittiness, while bashing Jose Reyes, you lose the right to complain about the team not winning.
Beyond the Box Score / Capitol Avenue Club / shwitter: @CapitolAvenue
When I heard a caller to WFAN last night suggest we package Reyes and Niese to get "something good"
I nearly cried. And then one this morning wants to trade Wright because he strikes out too much with men on base.
Oh god thats horrendous. The first one more than the Wright thing.
I would actually have to hurt that man if he said near me.
Ryan Miller was the true MVP.
I really hate Jerry.
Sometimes other Mets fans
Really make me wish I was not a Mets fan.
by dcmetsfan on Sep 1, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Texas wouldn't accept that. They want to get back something of value in the trades they make with us.
Wait, actually…Wait a minute…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 1, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh. I'd ask for this Cora person too.
Ryan Miller was the true MVP.
I really hate Jerry.
by Jsz on Sep 1, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
BRAVO, JK!
Much rejoicing indeed…
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!? Right here: http://myentireteam.wordpress.com/
For my money, this guy should also be in the top right corner

Even with the bear.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
I wanted to include Olerud and Alfonzo
But didn’t want to clutter too much. All deserving.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 1, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I was at that game....
In the lowe mezz behind home, about 3 rows back from the first row. I thought that the mezz was gonna collapse.
we should include Benny Agbayani
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I never like players
merely because they are good and play for my favorite team.
Not every fan who responds in a positive way to Frenchy is oblivious to the fact that he isn’t a good starting outfielder and would prefer him off the team. Earlier in the season I argued (it’s the contrarian in me) that he would be decent as the righty half of a platoon, but even in that regard he has slipped.
I did not particularly like Frenchy as a Brave. Not merely because he was an enemy, and one with poor plate discipline at that. I assumed he was a dumb redneck, like I assumed that with Chipper. Not that I am necessarily anti-red neck. My folks are North Carolinians. I like Hank Williams and the Allman Brothers. But that was my unknowing opinion of him.
Once I heard him speak a few times as a Met, I was disabused of that notion.
You’re right, of course. These guys are not drinking buddies, and I have no way of really knowing them. But I think you do get a sense. Filtered through interviews, reporters, etc.
Now, we rag on reporters. They don’t know from sabermetrics, they hail grit, disparage superstars for random events out of their control. However, I think you can get a sense through them of what some of these players are like to deal with. Francouer they like. he probably was decent to them, understood they had a job to do. A guy like manny ramirez, even before you read he pushed a traveling secretary, etc., you could tell from how reporters describe him, not an easy guy to deal with. Ted Williams evidently the same way. A real jerk. Bonds too.
You might say so what, those guys are idiots, why should Bonds or anyone give them the time of day? he’s great, they are peons, and don’t recognize his greatness sufficiently.
We often judge people by how they treat others. I think that’s why people like Francouer. he seems decent. He seems like he cares and tries hard.
I know that trying hard doesn’t make you a good ballplayer. From what I can gather, I respect Francouer. I wish he wasn’t so clueless about taking walks. He has seemed oblivious to it in the past. And if he has tried to improve in that area, he has failed. But that doesn’t make me not like him.
Carlos Beltran, he does not seem like he is difficult to get along with, and seems respectful enough. And i think when healthy he is a very good player. He leaves me a little cold, what little I know of him. Reyes on the other hand does not. I know a lot of folks thinks he showboats, but that doesn’t bother me. i like the exuberance.
But Carlos Beltran not giving me the warm fuzzies when I think of him doesn’t mean I didn’t want him on the Mets when he was performing. I wish he’d swung at Wainwright’s curve in 2006, but I don’t really hold that against him. That shit happens.
Fans in general want to see a player try hard. They don’t care how good he is, or really how meaningless making a show of effort (which it often is, like Rose running to first-I hated that shit) is. Even if a guy is great, if he looks like he sometimes goes through the motions, even if overall he is benefitting the team, they will resent the lack of effort.
Beltran has at times seemed less thn passionate. He has been injured, and he is such a graceful player, that impression may come off as not caring. I don’t think that’s true with him. I think he cares. How the hell should know with dimestore psychologizing? But he seems to. He seems to care maybe too much. He seems a brooder, not a slap you on the back kind of guy.
Since we do know so little about what players are truly like, I mostly put that aside myself. Beltran, ok, maybe something he said in an interview once stuck with me sub-consciously. Whatever. If he’s healthy, i want him on the Mets.
I’d take Manny too. From what I have read about him he seems like a jackass. I don’t care. I want him on the Mets.
K-Rod is a bridge too far. I want him off the Mets.
All of this is a roundabout way of saying why people like players or dislike them is complicated, and i don’t think everyone that likes what little they know of Frenchy as a person is blind to the fact he isn’t very good. Maybe he’s gritty on the field, shitty at home. I don’t know. But I am not gonna dislike him because he sucks.
Well said
But I am not gonna dislike him because he sucks.
I probably could’ve been clearer about this — I don’t dislike him as a human being, as a person (I’m basically neutral, although I didn’t care at all for his play-me-or-trade-me horseshit). I dislike him in the way he most affects my life — his baseball ability. I don’t like him as a player.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 1, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Play me or trade me
Yeah, i forgot about that. I hate that. I was just telling a younger colleague about this thread (he said “you should leave it be gramps”) and he reminded me of that, and that he’d heard Frenchy was actually a bit of a divisive clubhouse presence because of stuff like that and trying to be a leader type. Which, as has been pointed out here before, is hard to do when you are sucking it up.
yeah I don't dislike Frenchy as a human, I don't even know the guy
as a follower of the Mets I dislike TERRIBLE baseball players.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I don't know why you hate my boy Marlon Anderson
The 2005 and 2007 versions of him were awesome. I agree with Ted Berg that they might have won an extra game or two by giving his 2008 at-bats to someone else, but before that year, he was the best pinch hitter in the league.
And I wouldn’t really say that Cammy is hated. He’s just under appreciated.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Dude,
An extra game or 2 in 2008 means playoffs vs. NO playoffs…
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!? Right here: http://myentireteam.wordpress.com/
I said I agree with that.
In 2008 he was awful. But he was no detriment to the team before that year.
That team would have been interesting in the playoffs. I can imagine Ayala coming on to close out a game against the Rockies!
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
He's right on the best fit line
I like him basically commensurate with how good he was. His inside-the-park homer in 2005 (one of my fav games ever) gets him some bonus points, but the epic failure of 2008 wipes them away. His production was definitely above zero and I like him about the same.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 1, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the stats do his pinch hitting ability justice
But I understand.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
The inside the park homer game
was phenomenal. From Marlon blowing bubbles with his gum as he was rounding the bases, to Floyd’s game-winner after he had nearly won it a pitch or two before, I agree – one of my favorite games as well.
by dontstopbelieving on Sep 1, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Players I've liked:
I went to my first game at 8 years old in 1973. Limiting myslef to that point forward, here are the Mets I’ve liked…
Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Tug McGraw, Rusty Staub, Jerry Grote, Jon Matlack, John Milner, Joe Torre, Del Unser, Hank Webb, Dave Kingman, Steve Henderson, Lee Mazzilli, Craig Swan, Willie Montanez, Mike Jorgenson, Hubie Brooks, Mookie Wilson, Ellis Valentine, Wally Backman, Keith Hernandez, Darryl Strawberry, Jesse Orosco, Dwight Gooden, Sid Fernandez, Roger McDowell, Ron Darling, Gary Carter, Ray Knight, Howard Johnson, Lenny Dykstra, David Cone, Kevin McReynolds, Dave Magadan, Frank Viola, Bret Saberhagen, Daryl Boston, John Franco, Todd Hundley, Jeff Kent, Rico Brogna, Edgardo Alfonzo, Bobby Jones, Lance Johnson, Bernard Gilkey, John Olerud, Rick Reed, Al Leiter, Mike Piazza, Robin Ventura, Melvin Mora, Armando Benitez, Ty Wigginton, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Cliff Floyd, Mike Cameron, Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, Jose Valentin, Duaner Sanchez, Pedro Feliciano, Chad Bradford, Billy Wagner, Damion Easley, Johan Santana, Fernando Tatis, Angel Pagan & Ike Davis.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!? Right here: http://myentireteam.wordpress.com/
My favorite players are all from the 2000's
Edgardo Alfonzo, John Olerud, Robin Ventura, Richard Hidalgo (check out his 2004 UZR), David Wright, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, Endy Chavez, Oliver Perez (Game 7 and 2007 edition) Jose Valentin, Chad Bradford, Darren Oliver, Damion Easley, Fernando Tatis, Johan Santana, Angel Pagan, and my boy, Daniel Murphy.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Oh and Ryan Church
Hence the Preach19 username. I always called him “Preach.”
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Daniel Murphy.I don't know where to start??
by Putnan Prince on Sep 1, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Just lay it to rest. Please. It's at the point where it's not even that funny anymore...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 2, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
He swept up all our hears in '08.
well except maybe Putnam Prince’s…
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
Absolutely
I still see no reason why he can’t be a decent Mark DeRosa fill-in, in addition to being a second baseman with decent range. We don’t really know what he is yet to make all these judgments about his true talent level.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
You liked Kevin McReynolds?
Other than that, this list would sum up my likes, with a few additions.
No George (The Stork) Theodore???
Color me disappointed?
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
This is fantastic
I have been trying to convince a few of my Mets fan friends this exact point, but they just don’t get it. Great read! I think Dae Sung Koo deserves a spot at the top right as well.
see Kannonmcgruber?
normal people agree with me. it’s gonna take a nation of millions to hold us back.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
I'd like to point out that in that graph the blue line is not in a 45 degree angle.
From my scouting eye, it looks more closely to 30, in a 0-90 scale.
So, from a certain amount of production, James likes the player less than he in fact should.
In conclusion, Cannonlazr is a Mets haterz.

by Michkin on Sep 1, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Recommended
Ryan Miller was the true MVP.
I really hate Jerry.
by Jsz on Sep 1, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
For one day I put away the protractor and compass
And all hell breaks loose. Lesson learned — never watch baseball without an abacus.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 1, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
well, that's only if the axes are of a ratio of 1:1
/buzzkill
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
they appear to be.
Look at teh red right angle. It goes from the third tick on the x and the y. The axis appear 1:1. Math’d
Ryan Miller was the true MVP.
I really hate Jerry.
by Jsz on Sep 1, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
RAY ASS
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Sep 1, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
When I was younger
certain backups who had really good years or did something abnormal were my fan favorites.
Like from 2001, Shinjo, Joe McEwing, and Desi Relaford (he pitched!) were all favorites.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Gotta go with a personal favorites list of
Zeile, Piazza, Olerud, Fonzie, Cameron, Dubs, Reyes, Beltran, Dickey, Glavine (i’ll get my asbestos suit ready), Leiter, Endy, Shinjo, Wendell, Ordonez, Wagner, and for a brief time Eric Valent.
On the other hand, Alay Soler, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Rogers, Roberto Alomar, and Roger Cedeno can eat a bag of dicks in hell.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
somehow I forgot Keith
seems like a ridiculous oversight for me.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Sep 1, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Do they have to suck the whole bag?
Or each oneindividually?
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
hmm I guess my favorite mets would include:
Kevin Elster, David Cone, Keith Hernandez, Gary Carter, Doc K, Straw, Olreud, Ventura, Piazza, Blaine Beatty (he gave me my first and only Mets’ autograph, haha), Benny Agbayani, Fonzie, Mackey Sasser, Tim Teuful, Brian Bannister, Piazza, Mookie, (heck the entire 86 Mets), Angel Pagan, Bruce Chen, Jae Weong Seo, Pedro Feliciano, Bobby J. Jones, Pedro Martinez, Roberto Petagine, Charlie O’Brien and Lance Johnson.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Most fans wouldn't remember Petagine
Even Ralph Kiner called him Pelligrini. For the rest of you who don’t know him, he now plays under the name “Chris Carter.”
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
"Productive players irrationally hated by the fan base"
a/k/a “a Kevin McReynolds”
by MoreDireThanDuffyDyer on Sep 1, 2010 7:44 PM EDT reply actions
Eh....
I think he was hated with good reason. Anyone have a way to figure out how many og his HRs were solo shots in blowout games?
I loved this post
Thanks for writing it. I miss Mike Cameron. And I miss K-Rod. He seems to care. About WHAT I have no idea (yuk yuk yuk)
why was doug sisk hated?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
He was Armando Benitez
without the heater.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
When Doug Sisk was called in from the bullpen,the clubhouse attendants used to scramble to
move the Mets players cars further back in the parking lot behind the left field bullpen at SHEA to avoid broken windshields.George Foster said" Sisk is one of the reasons I come by limo".
by Putnan Prince on Sep 1, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This....
No one really knows the reason he was so hated, but he was. If you look at his numbers they are not awful, at least by today’s standards. But I remember being 8 years old and upon seeing Sisk come into a game went into a rage. I think it might have been that he was generally surrounded by better pitchers, so as the weak link he caught the flak.
Irrational "love" for certain players on AA
Where does Brian Stokes fit into this discussion?
Why is the word "dysfunctional" always on my mind?
its not irrational
he was a god among men
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Sep 2, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
So I guess now that Beltran is back and Frenchie is gone . . .
we’ll soar to the top.
Can’t wait!!

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