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Joaquin Arias, or Not Jeff Francoeur

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The Twitter machine was aglow last night as the news about Jeff Francoeur's trade came down the pipe. Here are the two tweets that probably demonstrate the poles best:

@billsweet Steaming pile of cat vomit for Francoeur? Also good. @enosarris Joaquin Arias for Francoeur? Sure, sounds good.

and

@totalmets Guess how many HRs our big new slugger Joaquin Arias has in his career? Try 0, nada, none. 19 RBIS over 4 seasons!!! Whooo. Dumbass trade! 

You can guess which side the average Amazin' Avenue reader comes down on. (Seriously? RBI? For a top/bottom of the order middle infielder? Um, okay.) Getting Francoeur off the team to see what we have in Lucas Duda - called up today - is good enough, but what did we get back in the trade? Let's take a look at the man that was once traded for Alex Rodriguez.

Star-divide

The first thing that jumps out from initial analysis is that Arias has been called a shortstop by some pundits. He's probably not a shortstop in the major leagues. Total Zone has him as a -12 shortstop over 150 games, and that's in Triple-A. Perhaps he can move over and play in a pinch, but the Rangers have only used him there for 32 innings in his big league career, which has spanned around 475 innings. No shortstop here.

But the Mets have a need at second base with Luis Castillo letting balls through the five hole and Ruben Tejada swinging a limp noodle, so he could still be useful at that position. And a -10 shortstop can actually still be a scratch defender at second base, so defense shouldn't keep him off the field. His -7.7 UZR/150 only comes in 390 innings and is usually more reliable after three seasons of data - I think he can better that number with regular work.

Arias is obviously a quick dude, which should serve him well on defense. In 789 minor league games, he has 138 steals at a 73% success rate. In the majors, his success rate has been 71%, and his Bill James Speed Score is 7.1 (5.0 is average) so his speed has translated. There's no question he's speedy.

He has no power. That part 'Total-Mets' got correct. His career minor league ISO is .097, and in the majors it's been .093. You know why this still doesn't stop him from being a useful part of the Mets? Luis Castillo has a career .061 ISO. Yes, that's right. Average is usually around .150, and Castillo has only once achieved half of that number.

But there is one thing that Castillo does that Arias may not. Castillo has a career 10.7% walk rate and .368 OBP, and even in his decline phase, he's managed to keep that OBP around .350. The million dollar question about Arias is if he will ever be able to do that. In a word: no. Arias has a 4.3% walk rate in the minor leagues, 4.1% in the major leagues. If 8.5% is the average, Arias is Jeff Francoeur.

A .275/.320/.380 line (aided by a speed-pushed BABIP) with decent defense is within reach for him in his prime years - just look at his 2008 Triple-A numbers. If he could manage that faithcasted line in the majors, he'd be close to an average second baseman in this league (second baseman hit .269/.334/.393 in the NL this year). That sort of designation may not be possible for Ruben Tejada, is beginning to look out of reach for Luis Castillo next year, and provides a decent hedge in case Reese Havens is not ready or continues to be injury-prone.

So there's something a little correct on both poles of the initial twitter diagnoses. Arias has no power, looks like a backup second baseman at best, and may just be a steaming pile of cat vomit with the upside of an average second baseman. But if taking him on - if only for organizational depth - means keeping Jerry Manuel from playing Jeff Francoeur every day, then this is a great trade.

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agreed

org depth move. getting rid of Frenchy, getting him out of the lineup, was the big win.

by Eno Sarris on Sep 1, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally

as long as you still have minor league options on cat vomit, it’s far more valuable than frenchman.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Sep 1, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

why not play him the rest of the season

castillo blew it on D, Tejada is currently over matched and with Reyes out right now we could use Tejada/Arias

Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all

by Rickfansince76 on Sep 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The biggest win in my mind

is that the Mets can’t possibly offer Jeff Francoeur arbitration this offseason.

by Eric Simon on Sep 1, 2010 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

the biggest loss

is all the great Wincoeur MS Paint.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Sep 1, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Justin Turner is playing again

and should be the de facto 2B for next year, assuming (1) that we don’t acquire one, and (2) that Reese Havens is not ready and/or is injured. If Arias plays over Turner, something’s wrong.

by dontstopbelieving on Sep 1, 2010 2:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Yup.

Figure on Havens in AA in 2011, in AAA in 2012, and in NY in 2013, IF he stays healthy.

This being the Mets, though, he’ll be fine with a month at each level.

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

There really aren't any organizations out there that play their good prospects for a full year at AAA.

For over a decade most of the Braves top guys bypassed it completely. Unless the position is blocked, most good prospects only hit AAA for a month or two as a tune up.

Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...

by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 1, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't be ridiculous.

Particularly since the CBA took on the shape it has today team’s are leaving even top prospects in the minors a little longer in order to postpone their arb and FA years. Random comments about one team don’t cut it.

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

? eh I'm pretty sure he's right

the majority of major prospects spend maybe 100 PA’s at AAA before getting called up, a lot of them jump straight from AA, that’s why the avg age in AAA is usually like 27-29 and it’s full of organizational guys. It’s more for fringy guys or guys who struggle heavily after their first call up. Or pitchers like Niese with so-so fastballs who have to learn how to mix up their stuff to be effective.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 1, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope:

Wrt to the post refering to the Braves,

First of all, the original point wasn’t about top prospects, it was about how teams tend to move their prospects along.

Second of all, you’re mistaking my general point about the broad spectrum of minor leaguers and how thirty teams bring them along for the example of a handful of special prospects brought up by one of the best teams in the majors at scouting and drafting.

But, even if I grant you all that, you’re still wrong. Even a club that pushes their best prospects like the Braves do don’t have the majority of their best ones in AAA just for a “tune up”. The Braves also often give their guys extra time in the lower minors, giving them a solid base. Their scouting is obviously better than most teams, and they much prefer guys who can play over guys with tools, meaning their best prospects make it to the majors faster.

You’re mistaking the fact that the Braves have had a few prospects who were worth skipping AAA for the idea that most teams have therefore had most of their own prospects skip AAA. That doesn’t make any logical sense.

You can point to Jeff Francouer skipping AAA (I wouldn’t, but you might) as a feather in the Braves cap, but keep in mind that he nonetheless got 1500 PAs in the minors. You look at a monster like Jason Heyward, but even Hayward got over 1000 PAs in the minors.

As for the other guys the Braves perceived as their top prospects,

Martin Prado had a year and a half in AAA
Chipper Jones, Hall of Famer, had a full year in AAA
Adam LaRoche had the majority of a season, 312 PAs, in AAA, hardly a tuneup. That was the culmination of over 1800 PAs in the minors.
Scott Thorman had over 500 PAs in AAA before the Braves thought he was ready for a starting role.
Marcus Giles had 100 games in AAA following a full year in AA, a full year in A+, and a full year in A ball.
Javy Lopez had 400 PAs in AAA, over 2000 PAs in the minors overall.

So, even cherry picking the organization, which wasn’t the original point, and cherry picking top prospects, which wasn’t the original point, just about everyone short of Jason Heyward get a lot more than 100 PAs in AAA before getting called up.

No offense, you’re just way, way off on this.

by Jack Str on Sep 2, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Most of the guys you named

came up like 10 years ago…is that not another type of cherry picking?

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 2, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it isn't, since the majority of them came up during the last decade.

IF we’re talking about top prospects within an organization—which was NOT the original point—how many do you think there are? I suppose by definition there’s one top prospect a year, though I wouldn’t annoint a guy an organization’s “top” prospect if he’s a genuine mediocrity simply because by accident he’s the “best” guy around. Besides, that wasn’t Schmitty’s point, so I’m not going to take him out of context.

The plain fact is, even within the organization he selected, and even taking my point about Havens, an often injured player, completely out of context, that the Braves have their top prospects spend a lot more time in AAA than he claimed they did. I mean, that’s simply obvious.

Go to BBRef, look at the Braves best minor leaguers, and look at their time in AA. I threw in their two best shots amonbg position players at the HOF during the Cox-Scheuerholz years to cinch the case. Chipper was a huge prospect, everyone expected him to be nearly as good as he turned out to be, and the Braves, with the same organizational philosophy then as now, kept him in AAA for an entire year.

by Jack Str on Sep 2, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but Chipper was 20 years ago

You look at the last decade but ignored actual recent examples

Heyward obviously
McAnn- skipped AA
Escobar- 195 AAA PA’s
Kelly Johnson- 192 AAA PA’s
Jordan Schafer also only had 38 AAA PA’s before his first call up

we’re talking about top prospects as in guys who don’t project to be purely major league platoon bench players, not all Heyward guys. Also Prado was really only down there for so long because he was blocked by Johnson. If you go through most teams, prospects who actually project to be everyday players, aren’t blocked, and don’t come up and suck for half a season, which is why Schafer was sent back down, don’t stay in AAA for more than maybe half a season.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 2, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

the braves do the same thing with pitchers too

Hanson- I think 66 AAA innings
MInor- 33 AAA innings

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 2, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Havens might start at AA in 2011...

but if he is performing well and (huge if) healthy, look to see him get a mid-season promotion to AAA. If the Mets still have a three-stooges rotation at 2B, I could see Havens getting to the majors sometime next season. I think that he is Rule V draft eligible next year, so if that is the case, he could be on the 40 man roster coming out of spring training.

by Russ on Sep 2, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see him up sometime in 2012.

Fact is, when he’s healthy, he should be a relatively fast riser. If he went on that path, he wouldn’t be in MLB until he was 26.

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Sep 2, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's important is to look at the actual time he's spent in the minors--Playing

baseball and not just watching it from the bench. A smart organization brings its injury prone minor leaguers along slowly, since they’re simply more likely to be injured in the longer, results-oriented major league season.

There’s no way Havens should have anything other than close to a full year at AA AND at AAA, though I guarantee that if he can play he’ll be rushed, and we’ll watch him “develop” the way we watched EFF! " develop".

by Jack Str on Sep 2, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

This trade is essentially

on par with the greatest Dykstra quote ever. When Dykstra was with the phillies and was informed that Von Hayes had just been traded he replied, “Great trade. Who’d we get?”

So if Arias <> Francoeur and Arias <> Castillo then Arias = Mets MVP.

"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning

by blains2000 on Sep 1, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Um, I saw the photo caption….and was quite puzzled.
ATLANTA – AUGUST 31: Jeff Francoeur #12 of the New York Mets bats in the third inning against the Atlanta Braves in the fifth inning at Turner Field on August 31 2010 in Atlanta Georgia. (Photo by Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images)
In both the 3rd and 5th?
By the way I’m a Braves fan who likes to lurk on other team’s blogs.

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Sep 1, 2010 3:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

ah, that makes sense. Thank you, stranger on the internet!

"Tony Gwynn made sacrifices. Cal Ripken made sacrifices. I'm not sure Derek Jeter made sacrifices given the ungodly deep pockets the Yankees have." - Chipper Jones

by MBL1 on Sep 1, 2010 3:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You're a Braves fan?

Tell us where you live so we can come over for chips and beer :)

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't believe people are complaining about what we got for Francoeur

I was absolutely floored when I found out we got an actual human being for him.

Yeah, Arias isn’t great, but he’s cheap, and at very worst could be a decent backup IF. I mean, he can’t be any worse than Tejada or Cora.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Sep 1, 2010 3:31 PM EDT reply actions  

I think when you're best argument is you're not worse than Tejada or Cora

you probably shouldn’t even be on a bench. I’m not complaining about what we got for him, but if Arias isn’t DFA’d/nontendered, or sitting on the bench in Buffalo maybe, I’d consider us losers.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 1, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still find it funny we release Cora

Arias gets DFAed for Cora, and we trade Frenchy for Arias. Its some weird cycle of crap.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Sep 1, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah--and how long will it take the geniuses in the Mets FO

to figure out what the Rangers had figured out?

When you pick up a guy who got bumped for Alex Cora, you have to ask yourself, WTF did I just do?

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats an easy question

they never will. It’ll just naturally run its course

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Sep 2, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Somehow we went from 2 craps to just one,

and this one doesn’t have a vest

Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...

by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 1, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I consider the fact that we got rid of Francoeur and get to see Duda for a month a full fledged win

Plus, you’re assuming that the Mets wouldn’t just sign someone worse than Arias for the bench in the offseason. Arias is at least young, and we don’t have someone obviously better than him coming up for a while. Plus, I doubt he prevents us from going after someone like Hudson in the offseason.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Sep 1, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

arias > Cano

and he’s just a bench player for us. We must be stacked with talent.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Sep 1, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anybody know how much cash we sent to Texas?

regardless, its a good trade for us for all the reasons stated.

by Endys Game on Sep 1, 2010 4:54 PM EDT reply actions  

meh

like Eric said, at least we know we won’t give him arb.

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Sep 2, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but it doesn't mean we won't try to resign him in the off-season

never underestimate the mets

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon

by Gina on Sep 2, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

sigh

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Sep 2, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope Duda realizes he's got about 12 ABs to show what he's got.

The Mets absolutely believe in small sample sizes. The fact that they were completely uninterested in bringing up the IL’s best hitter in order to continue giving at bats to Francouer suggests to me that Duda won’t get much time to prove he can hit.

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 8:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I looked at his 2008 numbers...

but then I looked at the 2009 numbers. They are terrible.

by EtSuKe on Sep 1, 2010 8:08 PM EDT reply actions  

For Arias?

Look at his BABIP, too. Someone wrote it was “speed-fueled” but I think it was more “luck-fueled.”

Plus, the Rangers essentially dumped Arias for Alex Cora. That makes me nervous. I’m guessing we’ll understand as soon as we see Arias field on a regular basis.

by Jack Str on Sep 1, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

This trade is basically equivalent to DFAing Frenchy

Assuming the Mets aren’t stupid enough to play Arias if he is as terrible as suggested.

by Brittannia on Sep 1, 2010 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

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