Mets Community Prospect List 2010: #13
Welcome to the 2nd Annual Amazin' Avenue Mets Community Prospect List. Every poll will include eight candidates for the next spot on the list, as well as a separate group of testers. Testers will be rotated into polls with each new installation, replacing each poll's winner and any name that's not getting votes. After a few rounds, if a candidate on the ballot receives a decidedly low vote total , they'll be replaced on the ballot by a tester. But for the first couple polls, I won't remove candidates with these low totals.
After the poll, Kyle Allen is the (apparent) choice for the #12 prospect in the Mets' system with 35% of the votes. Replacing him in the poll is Armando Rodriguez (not my choice, but I had multiple requests over the last few polls for his inclusion, so have at it). Yohan Almonte has been added to the testers. To recap:
- Wilmer Flores
- Kirk Nieuwenhuis
- Reese Havens
- Matt Harvey
- Jeurys Familia
- Lucas Duda
- Darrell Ceciliani
- Aderlin Rodriguez
- Cesar Puello
- Zach Lutz
- Dillon Gee
- Kyle Allen
- ???
The contenders:
Juan Urbina (17) R (G) SP 48.1 IP, 5.03 ERA, 54 H, 14 BB, 38 K, 5 HR
Sean Ratliff (23) AA OF .317/.371/.562, 311 PAs (242 at A+)
Cory Vaughn (21) A- OF .307/.396/.557, 313 PAs
Jefry Marte (19) A 3B .264/.333/.401, 366 PAs
Steven Matz (19) SP N/A
Robert Carson (21) SP A+ 86.1 IP, 4.17 ERA, 98 H, 33 BB, 69 K, 5 HR (48.2 IP in AA where he was pretty bad- 8.32 ERA)
Mark Cohoon (22) SP AA 71.0 IP, 4.18 ERA, 74 H, 15 BB, 56 K, 5 HR (90.1 IP in A with a 1.30 ERA)
Armando Rodriguez (22) SP A 146.0 IP, 3.08 ERA, 116 H, 46 BB, 152 K, 5 HR
Testers: Eric Campbell, Zach Dotson, Josh Satin, Jordany Valdespin, Matt den Dekker, Wilfredo Tovar, Armando Rodriguez, Javier Rodriguez, Josh Stinson, Brad Holt, Scott Moviel, Yohan Almonte, Eddie "Ruff Rider" Kunz
As always, voice opinions for the next ballot spot in the comments, and vote away!
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
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I'm continuing to vote for Cory Vaughn
Also, this list is starting to get sad
"I bet you'd lobby her, you horny 15 year old!" -Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan
I've been voting for him for a few polls now.
And yeah, Armando Rodriguez is where I officially became depressed.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Who IS he anyway?
Is he related to Nick Evans?
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
by Bobby Baseball on Sep 14, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, our system is not so shallow that you need to make up players!
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Jerry Manuel.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Sep 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Ratliff
Although the K ratio is high, he is still showing that in AA he can hit for power.
Next round, put up Wilfredo Tovar vs Armando Rodriguez. Please
Billy Chapel: "I can always tell when I'm in New York."
i mean, he's already IN testers
you mean lobby him for ballot spot…right
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
kyle allen? i must not have been paying close attention to the poll
he ranks behind vaughn, ratliff and cohoon (who i voted for) in my book.
i second the need for satin on this poll. i understand age is an important factor for him, as well as average at best D at 2B, but I would rather be seeing him playing 2B this september than Luis Hernandez. the way his bat played everywhere, i dont see how he hasnt earned more love
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
something seemed clearly amiss in that poll to me
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
and "average at best D" is extremely generous, from everything i've heard over the past year.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
it's ratliff for me
and has been for a few rounds. though the words ‘poor plate discipline’ seem to monopolize any conversation about ratliff, there was some legitimate and marked growth at the dish this season. aside from improving K & BB rates to career bests at double-A (no small feat), to say that he improved against lefties is an understatement (he batted .333 off them vs. 312 against righties).
of course the K’s make his impressive .317 average unsustainable, especially in the big leagues, but this is a kid who if he’d had 10-15 more games at bingo would have ranked second in the entire Eastern League in OPS & SLG behind only career minor leaguer tagg bozied while also ranking in the top 10 in OBP. though he probably won’t hang there in the bigs, the idea alone of a center fielder putting up a .400+ wOBA in double-A (something kirk niuewenhuis did not do) should be garnering more votes.
i think there’s a very real chance that in 1-2 years ratliff is the young outfielder people will be talking about out at citi, not niuewenhuis. and though he doesn’t possess the same superstar-caliber ceiling, ratliff has a very similar athletic, big power, big K, lefty-hitting skill set as reds OF jay bruce with bruce’s now customary .250-.260ish, 20 hr season with strong corner OF defense legitimately within reach. more realistically, i see ratliff as the mets version of another high round, pac-10 outfielder, detroit’s brennan boesch, in terms of skill set as well as sleeper status.
by Rob Castellano on Sep 15, 2010 12:21 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
this
Truth is, walk rates aren’t a very strong predictor for minor leaguers. I’d like to see Ratliff’s improve, but everything else is there, he’s a very good prospect. His strikeout rate also isn’t too bad for his amount of power.
According to one guy who has run correlations here, these are the correlations he found for various stats predicting major league success for minor leaguers in A+ and AA:
Hitter Statistical Correlation Coefficients
Age – ( 0.29)
RC/27 – 0.29
OPS – 0.28
2*OBA + SLG – 0.27
wOBA – 0.27
SLG – 0.26
AVG – 0.25
OBP – 0.23
H/PA – 0.23
H/BIP – 0.17
wPOW – 0.21
LWP – 0.21
ISO – 0.21
XBH/AB – 0.21
HR/AB – 0.19
K/PA – (0.15)
2B/AB – 0.14
First Base Rate(FBR) – 0.12
Speed (Diamond Futures)– 0.10
Spd(James) – 0.10
1B/AB – 0.09
BB/PA – 0.08
3B/AB – 0.05
Unlike estimating run production for major leaguers, it turns out here that batting average is better than OBP, that SLG is also better than OBP, and that OPS works better than wOBA. And walk rates in themselves are one of the weakest correlations.
Not that they don’t matter; I’d prefer to have the walk and strikeout rates better. But the fact is Ratliff was 7th in the EL in OPS, two spots behind Lutz, and there was nothing flukey about it. In fact 4 of the 6 guys ahead of him were older than he is. That’s still more important than his average walk rate.
On the Mets broadcast last night, they were discussing Ratliff, and Kevin Burkhardt said that one scout thought he was similar to Russ Branyan. But Branyan walked more, but also struck out a lot more and only hit about .235. Ratliff will strike out some, but not that much, will probably hit around .260 with a league average OBP around .325. Yes, Brennan Boesch this year is a good comp (Boesch actually walked less in the minors, and was older at each level).
by acerimusdux on Sep 15, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
great stuff
Rob and Acer. I have likewise been voting ratliff fior a few polls now.
A caveat
The above may make some of the secondary ratios seem less important than they are. All it really means is walk rates ALONE aren’t a strong predictor. Used in conjunction with age and production, they are very valuable.
Consider what causes these correlations. In A+ or AA, there will be very few young players, under 21. Suppose there is a small number of top prospects that age, who get advanced quickly, put up poor numbers initially (slug around .350 for example) then later go on to break out as top guys. How does this affect correlations? Well, there’s a small number of these players, but they will be large percentage of players under 21, so age will have a strong correlation. And they make a small portion of players who slug .350, so it probably doesn’t hurt correlations for slugging too much. There are enough older players with high slugging who succeed to offset them. They have a little more effect on walk rates. Many (most) of those teenagers who go on to succeed have poor walk rates. There are also many more older non-prospects with good walk rates, then there are non-prospects with good slugging.
This doesn’t mean that walk rate isn’t a critical separator if you confine it to older players in upper levels who are showing adequate power. But whether the rate is age/experience appropriate is critical.
Some of these things would look different if looking at lower levels. With more younger players, you might find that xbh rate becomes more useful (more doubles later turn into HR), and that BB rate becomes less useful, etc.
i definitely like ratliff
i put him above vaughn because they both had great seasons but Ratliff was at AA all season and vaughn was in short season. but i was just really impressed with cohoon’s season. i mean, he dominated savannah for the first half of the year then got bumped to AA and (predictably) struggled at first but adjusted and was very good again at the end.
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
The more I think about it, the more I buy this
That he could be the guy who winds up a mainstay as opposed to Nieuwenhuis. His batted ball profile certainly fits better and he appears to have more current power and probably more power upside. I’m not really sold either of them, improvement for left handed batters in the Mets system in Double-A doesn’t strike me as particularly remarkable considering the way the run environments function. Though St. Lucie was actually one of the more hitter friendly parks in the FSL, NYSEG has a rep as being very friendly to left handed power hitters, and the FSL and EL are similarly challenging overall environments for batters for different reasons (look at Ratliff’s Home/road splits from the FSL, they’re extreme). Yes, the plate discipline rate improvements are nice, but it could just as easily be related to the fact that balls he was pulling were leaving the yard at a greater rate, so he was getting fewer pitches to hit early in counts, thus getting into better deep counts, and drawing more walks and striking out less. Still, from the perspective of straight offensive profile, there are some things going on for Ratliff that are very encouraging and perhaps even moreso in terms of what he could do in the upper levels—specifically his ability to get the ball in the air and his HR/BIA, both better than Kirk’s are. Kirk’s all around game makes him more appealing, but I wouldn’t be totally shocked it Ratliff winds up with the better hit tool down the road.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Sep 16, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
One walk at Bingo in 61 PAs versus lefties got him all of a .350 OBP in spite of a .457 BABIP against them.
That’s difficult to draw any sound, positive conclusions from.
Ratliff has taken 8 walks in his 267 PAs against lefties as a pro. This year he has a .353 OBP overall despite a completely unsustainable.374 BABIP. His ability to get on base may well be a real problem. It’s not that he doesn’t walk a whole lot, it’s that against lefties he doesn’t walk at all. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a productive major leaguer, but it probably puts a real limit on his upside.
I am looking into the future....
And waiting for the day that Nate VIneyard will be the only prospect left, in round 3,987 of the Community Prospect List.
nate who?
oh yes…a blown draft pick.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Sep 15, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Nate Vineyard: case #1,250,100
why you should never blow a high pick on a relief prospect…. is this guy even in organized baseball anymore?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
? How exactly was Vineyard a relief prospect
he was a high school pitcher who could already hit 90 had advanced secondary pitches and was likely to add velocity with a mechanics tweak. Then he got injured and apparently frustrated with the rehab and fell out of love with baseball.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
What an asshole.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 15, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Non-grissiony bastard.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
You've said this before...
“Fell out of love with baseball.” I’m not sure that accurately captures what happened: the guy refused to answer the team’s calls. Not so much as a breakup text. For a long time no on knew where he was. It was a total Ray Finkel situation.
by MookieTheCat on Sep 15, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he developed some anxiety issues.
Crazy things happen.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way
I just hated how he and Kunz were picked as high picks. neither pick made much sense to me when they happened. Vineyard, if he didn’t get hurt, looked like lefty specialist in training. but, what the heck do I know? just another disappointed Mets fan, ’is all.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Somehow I missed the last poll. How the hell did Kyle Allen get picked?
btw… VAUGHN
by Criss Angel Couldn't Make Frenchy Vanish on Sep 16, 2010 2:05 AM EDT reply actions
No one really knows...
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
As for testers, I'd add Tovar
Truly great defensive shortstop. His bat is not exceptional, but he has been improving. This is one player whose development should not be rushed so that he has a chance at not being terrible with the bat in the big leagues.

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