NL East Elimination Applesauce - Mets wild card hopes next, Torre open to Mets, NY uninterested
by Joe Budd on Sep 20, 2010 7:25 AM EDT
in Applesauce
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Meet the Mets
This may have been Bobby Cox's final trip to New York, but it certainly felt like a lot of the previous ones. His Brave team eliminated the Mets from the NL East competition (a mere formality, but still) earning himself a bottle of Tom Seaver's wine and keeping his team alive in the division. So much for the Mets as spoilers.
The Mets have now given up 12 grand slams, the most since the 2000 Expos. They are still waiting for their first. Where is Rey Ordonez when you need him. Although, they could also talk to Robin Ventura.
Ken Davidoff thinks that there could be a market for Carlos Beltran during the offseason.
Two interesting player performances from the weekend. Dillon Gee continues to impress, allowing 3 runs over 7innings and taking pictures that make him look like Rick Reed. Also, in what one would hope is his last Met at bat, Luis Hernandez breaks his foot and hits a home run.
A source close to Joe Torre says the former Dodger skipper would be open to returning to the Mets. The Mets, apparently want someone with "more fire". Is there any way that Wally Backman is not the next Met manager?
Around MLB
The good news is that the Mets are not as bad as the Dodgers who are contractually required to hand the reigns over to hitting coach Don Mattingly.
The Phillies overcame a 6-3 9th inning deficit to beat Drew Storen and the Nationals, winning their seventh straight game. Oft-injured Chipper Jones wonders what could have been if his Brave team had stayed healthy.
The law student in me cringes when my studies cross over into the baseball world, but this is actually really interesting: a potential Johnny Cueto-Jason LaRue law suit after LaRue retired from Cueto's concussion-causing kick.
A.J. Burnett has a black eye and won't say anything about it. It has to be a bar fight, right?
Nyjer Morgan is trying to rehabilitate his image, giving the Philadelphia fan who was the target of his outfield toss the VIP treatment.
And, finally, the Reds' playoff push has apparently earned Dusty Baker a contract extension, one that he hasn't signed yet.
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I'd prefer to start the year with Beltran, though obviously not in CF.
Not a fan of buying high and selling low unless the good are irreparably damaged (i.e.,Ollie).
Torre only good for a circus atmosphere
it would lead to big hype, a lot of ink written over it and true bad blood between the Met and yankees….the only reason I like it is because I know some Yank fans who would blow their top…but Wallyball sounds liek the best step right now, he may be exactly what the Mets need…maybe what Wrightneeds, a little fire in him
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
If you like even more bunting and the love for grission
then Wallyball is your elixir.
by DannyMetsGeek on Sep 20, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
i'd love to see some bullpens light up the night
and Proctor looks good in pinstripes
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The Mets have to shop Beltran but don't have to trade him
I think you have to see if there is an interest in him. He is in the last year of his contract and there is no way he gets close to that type of money again from the Mets. I believe he leaves after next season, so the Mets should try and get something now with 1 year left
Pagan in CF, Bay in LF and then maybe Duda in RF. He has looked alot better at teh plate now that he got off that initial slump. Try and get rid of Beltran for a bunch of younger guys or if you can package Castillo with him for a 2B somehwere.( dreaming there)
that said I would be surprised to see the Mets find someone who wants him, so next season the only spot in the lineup that changes is 2B
1B-Davis
2b-???
3B- Wright
SS Reyes
OF- Pagan, Beltran, Bay
C- Thole
SP- Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, Mejia and then Johan a guess there is a question on if he is ready. If we sign Lee I am not sure who loses his SP if Johan is healthy. I can’t imagine sending Dickey packing. Gee looks good but wonder if he would be effective for a whole season. I believe he is a .500 pitcher with a 4.00 ERA for now, but could get better in a few years of big league pitching
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
The Mets would probably have to pick up at least half of Beltran's salary
to trade him, though. And the Mets are not big on paying a salary to guys that aren’t here (unless it’s Bobby Bonilla). I think a team like the Red Sox or White Sox would be into Beltran if the price was right, though. If Kenny Williams was interested in Manny and Rios at their low ebbs, he’d probably be into Beltran and hope for a rebound.
they have to pay all of his salary if they don't. Even if he
has a good year, he is gone after 2011. I guess they get 2 picks for him. But will they if he has another crap year? That I don’t know. I would explore it. They will probably unload him and lose 2 picks like they did with Wagner. Question is, can they get an everyday player of some value for him? Or a promising prospect?
nope no one gets picks for him
he can’t be offered arbitration per his contract. boras’s brilliance strikes again.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
also I'm like 80% sure
that Perez probably has some secret vesting option where he gets another 12 million if he pitches less than 30 innings.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
then they will try like hell to trade him
But I should not say that—I am trying to think like a Wontpon and hopefully I will be trying to think like an Alderson et al.
yeah but the fact that teams can't collect picks
probably makes it 10x harder to move him. teams usually trade for type A’s knowing they can collect draft picks to replenish what they gave up in terms of minor leaguers.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Its a good thing that teams can't trade picks
because the Mets would have traded every one of the next decade’s picks away for scrubs.
Honestly are we sure
That Beltran would be a type A, anymore? It works on last 3 seasons right? So you would get an excellent half a season in 2009, crap 2010, and whatever next year brings.
It's not that
It was written in Carlos’s contract that a team can’t offer him arbitration.
Is the sun going to come up tomorrow?
Yup. And even if we find a taker by picking up half his salary
the team isn’t going to get any real prospects for him. Joel Sherman wrote he expects the Mets to cut salary again in 2011. That means if the Mets dump Beltran they aren’t going to replace him with a FA, and if they don’t unload him expect someone else to be traded who’s going to be making some money. Pagan is a logical, albeit unfortunate choice, and given it’s his third arb year and that he’ll get a nice return, it won’t surprise me at all to see the Mets trade one of their two best players.
Here is how I feel about Beltran
we are going nowhere next year. I am certain of that. If we were to trade Beltran, we would have Pagan to play the position but he would give nowhere near the good Belttran’s numbers. Most CFs do not come near his productivity if he is all right. That would leave us unable to replace the productivity he brought as a 3 or 4 hitter. The mets are not going to pay next year to replace those numbers; I do not think there is much chance of that. so if there are no picks, by all means try to trade. If nothing good comes up over the off season, hope he is productive and unload him in July for something.
I agree Beltran if healthy gives us better production than anyone else
really Duda being the replacement in the OF or whoever they probably do not give us Beltran numbers. I just think it is the best for the Mets future after 2011.
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Sep 20, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i like this line of thinking
but i feel met management, old: (is “mad” at Beltran) or new (new GM with vision that doesn’t include him) is the confounding variable here.
Paying his way out of town even if we flounder again next year is unappealing to me. Optimistic view: With his health trends probably not going to get better, the Mets are just lucky his contract is expiring.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Beltran isn't going to put up Beltran numbers in 2011.
It seems clear that his peak is over. The only question, really, is does he have a few 3-4 win seasons left in him.
Too much fire.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 20, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah. would be TOO good a candidate
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Sep 20, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Is there any way that Wally Backman is not the next Met manager?
Huh?
Does anyone really believe that if the Mets bring in a Jon Hart or Sandy Alderson or someone of that level, that guy is not going to determine the next manager??
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Sep 20, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
We can only guess
My guess is that if Jeff Wilpon wants Wally, and he wants to hire one of the above GMs, that prospective GM would consent at the time of hiring to make Wally manager under the provision that the new GM can remove Wally at any time if deemed necessary.
nonsense.
None of the GMs in this conversation would take the job w/o being able to have a big say in who replaces JM in the dugout. And that goes for any non-1st time GM, imo. That’s not the way to get off the ground in any organization and none of Hart, Daniels, Byrnes, Alderson, Ryan, et al will allow Jeffy W to pick his manager. That’s a completely unrealistic scenario.
Now, a 1st time GM will not have the same power to exert that kind of leverage… but I really think the Wilpons would prefer to have a heavier hitter now even if it’s going to cost more… I think even JW realizes that even if he wants Wally (and we don’t know that to be true) that the next GM is a way more important hire and if whoever that’s going to be doesn’t want WB, then so be it.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Sep 20, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you read what I wrote?
I said that if the Wilpons want Wally and one of the above GMs, they would need that prospective GM’s consent before being hired. That means that the GM would have a say.
What I'm describing is this type of scenario
The Wilpons say, “We prefer to have Wally as manager, but if you don’t agree with that, we’ll just let you choose someone else.”
OK
but that seems to me to be different from what you said above, “[the] prospective GM would consent at the time of hiring to make Wally manager”, even if the GM might have the authority to fire Wally down the road. The implication seemed to be that the prospective GM would have to consent to start with Wally as manager as a condition for being hired as GM. Correct me if I misunderstood though.
Yes
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 20, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
except wins and championships
but maybe he doesn’t want those. Meaningful games in July seem appropriate enough
Money can't buy you grission...
He makes a grissionless team to cover his own grission shortcomings.
by MookieTheCat on Sep 20, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
my foot in his ass?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
the answer is the Tueffle Shuffle!!!!!
drives the ladies wild….or puke depending on his managerial status
I hate Philadelphia so much.
by the caveman on Sep 20, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
No
but I believe there’s no way we actually bring in Hart or Alderson or someone of that level.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
because the wilpons would have to give up too much power and control
and stop interfering…and there doesn’t seem to be any indication they intend on that.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
When you say "they" you must mean Jeff
By all accounts, Fred has checked out.
by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
however, fred has been seen trying to meddle
with the dodgers affairs
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
he probably forgot which team he actually owns
I can see him watching the mets trying to figure out when they started letting black players in and why Jeff changed the colors.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
when i visited the $iti rotunda
i momentarily forgot myself—for an instant as i posed for pictures under a giant blue number, i was so happy to be a fan of a team with a great tradition…
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually think the opposite
I think deep down Jeff wants to be slapped around like a baby… no, really, I think he wants to have a head baseball guy in charge so that he doesn’t have to be as involved as he’s been. Let’s face it, Omar could not be left in charge here all by himself and I think that situation has caused JW to get more involved than they ever envisioned he would.
Every owner wants to have final say on most things that involve spending money, so to that extent Jeff will be in the loop going fwd, but I don’t see him meddling on the player side if they are able to bring in a GM who has some gravitas…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Sep 20, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
most reports say that Jeff has been interfering
since the Wilpons took full control, well before Omar, under Duquette for example, and part of the reason Omar was brought in was because of his agreeable non hard stance attitude.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
but it seems clear that Jeff stepped up
his involvement over the past 2 yrs when it became clearer that Omar was just making a mess of things…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Sep 20, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It didn't become clear Omar was just making a mess of things
until the 09 off-season. and by most reports he was heavily involved during the Duquette era too.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
and Duquette was a relative neophyte
as a GM anyway… point is, as I said I don’t think JW will get too much involved if they hire a guy who’s been a GM before… none of these guys will stand for it…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Sep 20, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
but why do you think they would hire that person
when 1. they’ve hired two gms nothing like that so far and 2. when most reports say Jeff has no interest in truly ceding power. Did you see the sherman article posted in the fanshots?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
It was clear he was making a mess of things when he gave Julio Franco
that ridiculous two-year deal. Punting marginal wins going into what looked like it could be a close race was blatant incompetence.
cerrone seems to disagree
and says jeff only started taking the reigns when the wheels on the Omar wagon started to fall off
by Mike Clemente on Sep 20, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
And Cerrone has to placate certain people
Of course he’s not going to call Jeff a meddling owner.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
I remember reading
that Jeff and Peterson were the ones who pushed the Kazmir trade at the time. Duquette proved to be nothing more than a fall guy
I have read the same thing
When they fired Phillips, Jeffy assumed a big role in some player decisions. When everything when to crap, they got Omar. According to what I have read, Omar took control on the condition that he have full control. My guess is that this went well until the first collapse.
As an observer, I think Jeffy started encroaching on Omar’s autonomy with the whole Randolph situation, and then gained full steam right after the Adam Rubin press conference.
by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there are a lot of ways
Mets aren’t always on the same page as the fans
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Sep 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course they won't. Not if Jeffy is set on Backman.
Then Backman as manager will be a condition of a candidate accepting the GM job offer.
To put it another way, does anyone REALLY believe that Wilpon won’t interfere with what is often a general manager’s prerogative, and does anyone really believe that more than a small handful of candidates for Mets GM would turn down the job because one of the conditions of employment is that Wally Backman gets a two-year deal?
I like in that article about the flying bat they make clear...
That not only was that bat maple……It was Canadian maple. The vast high-latitude conspiracy continues!
First Jason Bay
now this?!?! Will these diabolical Canucks stop at nothing?
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
Not until Hockey is given just as much time on SportsCenter as the inferior NFL and NBA.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.
The Colvin thing looked like it hurt
I’m glad the mets won’t go for Torre, even if their reasoning is silly, although I fear the wally backman era is nigh. Who knows though, maybe Backman is the kind of guy who can lead a ragtag bunch of misfits to a championship like you see in the movies. Of course Beltran is movable but we’ve made it into such a buyers market we won’t even get face value for him. I’d just as soon keep him as a corner OF unless an overwhelming offer comes along.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Sep 20, 2010 12:47 PM EDT reply actions
At least Uggla
would want to be here. That would be one player in MLB at least.
i know uggla can straight up hit
but i’ve spent enough time holding back vomit at the horrible “fielders” we’ve put at 2b, I’d much prefer a guy who’s decent on both sides of the ball.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Sep 20, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
plus he's 30
and a guy who was a horrible fielder in his 20s is just going to get worse, along with his bat. He’d probably only be valuable in years we weren’t going to contend anyway.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
i dont want joe.
we tried it once. it failed. I’m convinced he didnt do anything with the yankees except sit there and take credit. I believe it was all David Wells master plan!
I hate Philadelphia so much.
I am really hoping that Towers decides to take the Mets gig
When do you think the Mets will officially make their formal offers?
Pitchers and catcher report in feb
so I’m guessing sometime around March.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
by Gina on Sep 20, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
beltran for jacoby?
anyone else here that?
OT, but is anyone on Firefox having trouble accessing MLBTradeRumors??
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Braves series just liek season
look we were pretty much out of the playoffs, but the Mets coul dhave come up big and swept the series and put themsleves at 6.5 behind the Giants. instead they get swept
and each game was close, even tied more than half way through, only to come up short, couldn’t come up with the late rally.
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
We've been out of the playoff picture since July
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
does peter king realize that Beltran was hurt for a lot of the season?
h. How do the Mets get away with charging New York Met prices for Binghamton Met baseball? And whoever kidnapped Carlos Beltran, please put him on the 7 train and send him back to Citi Field
I hate Philadelphia so much.
and operation iraqi freedom
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Sep 20, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Peter King is a hack
He is terrible, and basically writes without checking any background on anything.
So what you're saying is....he's a typical mainstream journalist?
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Gee and Rick Reed
I think the Dillon Gee comparisons with Rick Reed are interesting and may be correct.
What is interesting is that Gee is whereing #35 which was Reed’s number with the Mets.
Coincidence?
Rick Reed is, I think,
still anathema in MLB ranks for scabbing
I lobby Cosmo Kramer for pitching coach
Anyone who would throw at Mickey Mantle and start a bench clearing brawl in a fantasy camp must be oozing grission.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
Eh...
I hear he does not have good things to say about Keith Hernandez…
by MookieTheCat on Sep 20, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
LaRue should sue Cueto.
He might have an excellent chance of winning with a jury, depending on what the film showed..
As for the argument that headhunting is an essential part of pro ball and that whatever tort immunity applies there applies to college ball, is specious. They’re not at all the same game. The writer might just as well have justified hitting a little league player in the head on the grounds that it’s an essential part of the pro game.
I’ve also never understood why a lot more players don’t “accidentally” lose hold of the bat in the direction of pitchers who are actively throwing at them. And if a hitter does that and gives a headhunter a concussion, that shouldn’t be actionable if it’s true that a pitcher throwing at a hitter, no matter how intentionally, has tort immunity.
Agree that he might have a case...
In the 10th District Weenie Court of The Great State of Girlymania. The article was a yeoman’s effort, but it was a law student’s effort having been through one torts class in which he seemed like he learned something but it was far too theoretical. I think you correctly noticed the vast distinction between headhunting and headkicking. However, there is an additional level of assumption of risk (kind of a correlate of self-defense) that applies in a fight, particularly when there are lots of people involved and one guy is cornered, as I believe was the case here. The issue of foreseeability applies here, but not exactly as the author describes. If you corner a guy, he might just kick you in the head. That’s foreseeable. While there might be a tort here, I doubt it. Brawls are brawls. If you don’t want to get hurt, stay away.
As for the bat question, there is a significant legal difference between assault with a ball and assault with a bat, due to the nature of the instrument in question. A bat to the head is generally considered to include a risk of death or serious injury, while a ball is not (at least not in the age of batting helmets). There are all kinds of shades of gray here and I don’t mean throwing a bat like Clemens did, but if you throw a bat at someone’s head, hard, there is a serious argument for an aggravated assault (in most states, felony criminal assault involving a potentially deadly weapon) charge, as well as the tort liability that flows from that. Most states consider assault/battery absent a deadly weapon in the misdemeanor category. Though their tort equivalents don’t reflect the differences in criminal culpability, the differences are reflected in approaches to assumption of risk and similar doctrines.
by MookieTheCat on Sep 20, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Marichal ever charged with assault?
I can’t imagine Johnny Roseboro (or anyone back then) filing suit.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
Anyone who did would have been met with a chorus of...
“Hey, what’s the big idea!?!”
I prefer to see everyone from the mid-70s and before as Kaz Dolowicz from the original Taking of the Pelham 1-2-3 (not that crap version where the 1960s All-Star actors were replaced with John f***ing Travolta)….
by MookieTheCat on Sep 21, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
it's pretty amazing how
Nyger Mogran got suspended more than Cueto….I mean, come on, Cueto kicked a guy in the head!
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Sep 21, 2010 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions
geh I must have dyslexia or somthing
Nyjer Morgan… I really ought to brush up my spelling.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
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