The K-Rod Plan
No matter how you feel about closers in general, Francisco Rodriguez's $17.5 million option for 2012 is an onerous black cloud looming over the promise of dropping almost $60 million in contracts once this season is through. Rodriguez is certainly no Mariano Rivera, who is getting paid $15 million a season with $1.5 million deferred, and even if he were, the Mets don't strike most observers as a Yankees-like team that is a mere piece or two away from a championship in any given year. A $17.5 million closer is a fancy bauble at an extreme price on a team that needs to go lean and mean and spend money in a smart way.
This year, all Francisco Rodriguez has to do to trigger that option is finish 55 games. Last year was the first time since he'd become a full-time closer that he didn't finish 55 games. If the option didn't exist, he would finish 55 games this year, and the Major League Baseball Players' Association (MLBPA) will be watching the Mets because they know this. Like the organization came to Rodriguez's defense when the pitcher had his legal troubles and was suspended by the team last year, the MLBPA will be ready to pounce and declare that the team is tampering with Rodriguez' role in order to save money. Remember that the union was ready to file a grievance on Magglio Ordonez's behalf when the Tigers attempted to platoon the outfielder in order to keep his option from vesting.
This, then, is a simple two-step plan to keep Francisco Rodriguez's option from vesting without incurring the wrath of the MLBPA. The beauty of it is that this plan would actually get the most out of the Mets' best bullpen arm as well. Help the team win while helping the team save money? That should go over well, right?
Step 1. Continue to Call Francisco Rodriguez the Closer
Semantics matter. Continuing to refer to the embattled Rodriguez as the closer will help soothe the MLBPA's furrowed brow. Don't push your luck by installing Bobby Parnell and Taylor Buchholz as co-closers and demoting Rodriguez to set-up man because that will incur the wrath of the union as well as future free agents.
Adding up saves and blown saves, you'll find that Rodriguez has only once found himself in more than 55 save situations in one season, and that was his in his Major-League record-setting 2008 run with the Angels. In 2009, he saved 35 and blew seven. If it's a save situation, use Rodriguez most days - you might as well, and it won't endanger the plan to keep him from finishing 55.
Of course, all of this doesn't mean you can't screw with the definition of a closer.
Step 2. Screw With the Definition of a Closer
One tenet of sabremetrics is that your best pitcher should be used in the most important moments at the end of the game. We've seen enough games with the middle of the lineup coming up in the eighth inning to know that it's a little silly to save your closer for the 6-7-8 hitters in the ninth - it's not just some ivory tower proclamation.
In general, the team wasn't terrible in their handling of Rodriguez last year. FanGraphs has a statistic called Leverage Index that tracks how important a game situation is compared to the average situation. Rodriguez had a 1.54 gmLI, meaning that when he entered a game, he found himself in situations that were one-and-a-half times more important than the average game situation. That led the bullpen, at least.
However, other teams managed their closers more effectively. 21 qualified relievers averaged better gmLIs for the season, including two setup men. That's right, Mike Adams (1.55) and Daniel Bard (1.90) were effectively leveraged better than Closer Rodriguez.
What this means is that Rodriguez needs to be used in tight spots earlier in the game if necessary. Up by two with two on and the cleanup hitter on in the eighth inning? Perfect. Tie game with a runner on second and their best hitter at the plate in the bottom of the seventh? Bring him on for three or four outs. This will actually help the team get more value from their closer, while keeping him in the role and keeping him from finishing games.
It will also eliminate the need for Rodriguez to get in a game to 'get some work,' in a way. Rodriguez' first four appearances last season were at the end of games that were either blowouts or losses, but it was probably a good idea to get him out on the mound facing major leaguers at least once before his his first save chance (April 17), so there he was, getting the last three meaningless outs four times before his first save. Let's look at those four appearances to see how the 'new' closer role would work.
April 5, 2010
The Mets win 7-1 but Rodriguez hasn't gotten into a game yet. Well, it was the first official game of the season, so no need to dust the closer off for this non-save situation. Enjoy the victory with Bobby Parnell on the mound.April 7, 2010
The Mets lose 6-7 to the Marlins in ten innings. Rodriguez pitches a two-hit ninth in a tie game. He strikes out the cleanup and fifth-spot hitters (Jorge Cantu and Dan Uggla) before giving up a couple hits that don't come around to score. The new approach may have had him come on in the eighth to face Hanley Ramirez, even if it meant taking him out after the Uggla at-bat, but since he didn't finish this game, it wouldn't have mattered. At least he wasn't saved for the save situation in a tie game - that happened at least once during the season, most notably when he didn't appear until the 19th inning against the Cardinals in the 20-inning marathon later in the month.April 11, 2010
The Mets lose 2-5 to the Nationals, and Rodriguez gets work in by facing Adam Kennedy, Willie Harris, Nyjer Morgan, Willy Taveras and Christian Guzman. The new approach would have had him come on in the eighth inning to face Adam Dunn, Josh Willingham, Ian Desmond and Wil Nieves. Those are better hitters and the game is still close enough to argue that the combination of getting work in and keeping the game close would be beneficial.April 15, 2010
The Mets win 5-0 against the Rockies. K-Rod faces Dexter Fowler, Jason Giambi, Troy Tulowitzki and Ian Stewart - the heart of the Rox order that day. Since it had been four days, it seems like an okay use of the closer... until you look up the Mets' schedule and see that they lost, 5-6, the day before in ten innings. In that game, the Mets went with Ryota Igarashi to face Troy Tulowitzki, Ryan Spilborghs and Ian Stewart in the ninth inning of a tie game. Does that really make any sense, even if Igarashi got through unscathed? Use Rodriguez there and he doesn't fnish this meaningless inning the next day, the team gets to save Igarashi for an important tenth inning in a tie game, and then maybe Chris Iannetta doesn't hit a game-winning shot in the bottom of the tenth off of Jennry Mejia. This two-game stretch might be a microcosm of some of the foolhardier decisions made by the last regime, actually.
So that's it - four 2010 appearances for K-Rod and no saves, wins or blown saves, but instead three games finished in a meaningless fashion. Under the new approach, he would finish none of those games and yet still get four games' worth of work - all while helping the team win and retaining his Closer title.
This isn't neuroscience, and it shouldn't be too difficult for the team to manage. Only Heath Bell, Brian Wilson, Billy Wagner, Francisco Cordero and Carlos Marmol finished more than 55 National League games last year, meaning that there were about ten teams in the NL that managed to fill their closer role all year without having a pitcher hit that number that looms so large over the Mets' 2011 season. Because there's a new regime in town, they have an advantage: the ability to frame the changes as part of an overhaul of how the team is run, all the way down to how the Closer is used.
Just call him a "Moneyball Closer," and maybe people will nod sagely and miss the point.
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good article, and let's hope they use him wisely
Fail Rod gives me the fits whenever he comes in….too cute in his attempts to “close” games.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
great points.
Also having a strong lefty at the back end of the pen would make it easy to justify not automatically going to ThugRod when matchups suggest using a LHer instead…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 13, 2011 10:17 AM EST reply actions
Absolutely this
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong
But “finishing games” isn’t synomyous with “save situations.” To be the last pitcher in a game, you can 1) lose a tie game in the 9th or beyond, 2) win a tie game in the 9th or beyond, 3) blow a save, or 4) earn a save.
If you look at his baseball-reference page, (aside from an injury shortened 2010) K-Rod has not finished less than 56 games since 2004.
we have a plan
and we like our plan
What Would Matt Szczur Do?
by Hoyadestroya85 on Jan 13, 2011 10:25 AM EST reply actions
As much as I love fancy baubles...
…this is one I think the Mets can live without in 2012. So we’ll just have to make due with semi-lustrous nicknacks, curios and tchotchkes. There are worse fates.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Jan 13, 2011 10:34 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Also, that is one fly shyster walking with Krod in the picture
Lawyers be fedora-in’
Front office take warnin’
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Jan 13, 2011 10:35 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good article Eno.
As much as I would love the Mets to save 14 million on not paying K-Rod, I have a question. Who would close if he’s gone?
by SFloridaMetsFan on Jan 13, 2011 10:41 AM EST reply actions
Do teams really need one guy designated as a “closer”? It really does look like this was created by agents to get more money for relief pitchers. Teams should be able to put their best guy in the most important situations.
Of course they do.
Can you have baseball without the DH? No, and you can’t have it without closers. Hmph.
Kicking knowledge in the face.
I mean
I think you could figure out a way, with a good bullpen, to not have a closer, but you’d get killed by fans and the media most likely, so it’s better to have a Closer.
Who would close? Whomever the Mets can get in FA, or whichever failed SP they can convert in their own organization.
in this case, it depends
on how we define it working or not….
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 13, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
They are still doing it
Bard>Papelbon
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Just being more under the radar about it than last time. Papelbon racked up the saves this year but Bard’s gmLI was higher, if ever-so-slightly.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 13, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
They had a "closer by committee"
I’m not sure if that’s really the same thing as having a “bullpen ace”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I think they were the same thing
I’m pretty sure the idea was to use the best reliever at the most crucial points, so saves are distributed across a bunch of pitchers. In theory at least.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 14, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I do believe half of baseball
Manages to do without a DH for the vast majority of the season snark snark I mean no offense to you, just hate the DH
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jan 13, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
you good sir
may have just snarked a snarker.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 13, 2011 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Option #2 works for me
Which is why I wanted the Mets to sign Brian Fuentes. At his reported $5 million asking price, I don’t see that happening.
"The Mets are gonna be amazing!" - Casey Stengel
KRod's reaction to this concept
will be to change his entrance song to “See My Vest” by Montgomery Burns.
by Jay_What on Jan 13, 2011 10:58 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
K-Rod's suing the Mets?
…In 1948?
….with Bruno Tattaglia, esq?
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Jan 13, 2011 10:58 AM EST reply actions
he also looks like
a dirt eating Tauron from the show Caprica (RIP).
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
I laughed at this
yet felt uneasy about it. I’m a Taurus (or rather, I was until yesterday, anyway…). Plus I’m a Mick, & while Adama looks to be of Latin descent (both in name and physical appearance), those sweet-ass bagpipes that played whenever he and Apollo got all “Field of Dreams” sure SOUNDED Irish…
I guess what it boils down to is, why can’t all the colonies just get along? (and agree that the Cylons are scumbags…)
BTW: That show’s canceled, huh? Hadn’t heard. Guess now we’ll never know how that frumpy-yet-oddly-attractive chick in her dad’s robot somehow creates a race, leads a slave revolt & sparks a war all in the next year or two…
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Jan 14, 2011 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
Caprica got canned a few months ago
and they burned off the last 5 episodes all in one day about a week or so ago. they did a pretty decent job wrapping it up IMO, especially considering a) the BSG finale was less than satisfying and b) i heard they were still planning on making a 2nd season when they did the last season 1 eps. you get decent idea how cute little hipster robot chick and her monotheistic cult start the whole cylon thing. i recommended tracking it down.
personally i think they could have just made the whole show about faux-latino tuaron adama mobsters but i enjoyed the whole series, very underrated.
also syfy green lit a another prequel set after Caprica during the 1st cylon rebellion which supposed features a young bill adama owning robot asses called BSG: Blood & Chrome. not sure when theyre airing it though.
so, who’s up for some wedgies? i know i am.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
I will look for it, thanks for the info!
Although I have to disagree with your assessment of the BSG finale. I thought it was perfect.
A miniseries about Bill Adama owning toasters Top-Gun style? SWEET. Sounds like the best 2 minutes of “Razor” extended into a movie.
Come to think of it, they should just hire the guy that played him in the aforementioned flashback. I totally bought that dude as a young Husker.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I believe I’m about to have my head forceably flushed in a public toilet.
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Jan 14, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Good Lord!
I just can’t escape people bitching about the ending of BSG. Get over it people! It was a perfectly fine ending, I’m sorry if it didnt live up to the A++ of the rest of the series.
Hey, man, I'll take it a step further
I friggin’ loved it. Cant imagine a better way for it to have gone out, right down to Jimi’s “Watchtower.”
by Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed on Jan 15, 2011 5:13 AM EST up reply actions
I can picture the managerial interviews
Sandy: Will you let the option vest?
Wally: I will do whatever it takes to win the game, contracts be damned
Sandy: Thank you for your time
*
Sandy: Will you let the option vest?
Terry: Not if it will cost me my job
Sandy: It will, and you’re hired
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 11:03 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
The worst thing that could happen
would be for the Mets to be better than expected through the ASB. You just know the Mets will miss the playoffs and K-Rod will get his vest. So, maybe we’re better off keeping Ollie and Castillo and throwing Maine out there too and put K-Rod in save only situations.
the fact that there are high leverage
situations that call for the pen’s best option in the 8th inning which possibly leave the “save” or “game finish” to another arm in the 9th is the only thing that should matter… and let the PA throw their tantrum…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 13, 2011 11:15 AM EST reply actions
Though that is realistic and makes sense
it goes against prevailing baseball wisdom. Unfortunatley.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'd like to think the FO has already sat down or at least plans to
and is looking at every possible way to shave a GF here and there. IOW, pretty much as Eno describes. I wonder what Froddy’s GFs would be year by year if he was simply given no mop up work, but without Eno’s wise suggestion to put him in high leverage situations before the 9th inning (which, while an excellent idea, we just won’t be able to get away with since it’s contrary to the Mets previous use of him and contrary to standard industry practice). That alone should do it, no?
The problem with letting the PA throw their tantrum is that they’d probably win any grievance other than one based on just using Rod in 9th inning save situations. If the Mets stick to that, there’s a good chance he won’t get to 55, and that they won’t lose a grievance hearing. I don’t think the PA can claim the Mets are in any way obliged to use Rod in the 9th inning of a 7-2 game.
does Rodriguez's contract have any clause
which obligates the Mets to use him exclusively to close out games (ie: 9th inning) or that he must be used in save situations?
and who gives a flying fluck how the team used him previously? Clearly this regime isn’t going to be a slave to convention or the previous script.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 13, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
if there is sound logic behind
any shift in his innings from 9th to 8th, then objectors will have plenty of lakes to jump into.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 13, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
As for flying fucks, which I'm all in favor of, the point is to avoid the option vesting,
and for the Mets to avoid being ordered in binding arbitration to fork over 17.5 million dollars. Good faith contracts like this have everything to do with reasonable expectations and historical patterns of conduct. So, if the Mets don’t want to get stuck, they have to give a fairly close approximation of good faith, which means a fairly close approximation in 2011 of how they used Roddy in 2010 and 2009.
In other words, you ought to give a flying fuck about how well the Mets try to pull this off unless you genuinely don’t give a shit about how much money they have to spend in the 2011-2012 offseason.
What about changes in management?
Won’t they consider different philosophies in management with new administration?
R.A. Dickey "I do have thoughts on that. I don’t want to make them public."
THE WALTER REED 3 - Terrible Teammates, Worse Human Beings.
I doubt this new FO
is the slave to convention that you expect them to be, as they’ve been making their reputations on questioning every bit about conventional/traditional baseball wisdom of yore since they each entered the game.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 14, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
New regime + Precedent
The Minaya Mets would not use KRod in such a way, but DePodesta has precedent on his side because that’s exactly how the A’s used Chad Bradford. The PA might throw a fit, but they cannot dictate ti the Mets how they should play the game. As long as the Mets can make a reasonable argument that the teams best reliever should be used when the game is on the line and remind the player’s union that the new management team has a history of using relievers in such a way, then they’re outta luck.
Well, okay. You're wrong, but okay.
If you really think that the PA is going to shrug and say “crap, you win”, and that Roddy’s lawyers are going to say, “darn, there’s nothing we can do because Paul DePodesta once used Chad Bradford differently”, more power to you.
They can boo-hoo about it all they want,
but all the boo-hooing they do doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll get what they want and win, should some kind of grievance be filed. The fact that the organizational philosophy has a history of doing the above lends credence to the concept that they are not acting in ill will solely to prevent his contract from vesting; it’s not an “automatic win” button, but it’s ‘Exhibit A’ in support of the idea that the team is not acting in bad faith.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 14, 2011 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
Even though he's our best reliever
I think it would make sense for him to be out there in a SAVE situation. My issue is with all the times Jerry would throw him out there either to give him work, or protect a 4-6 run lead.
Since it’s based on a “ending games” clause, I’m guessing you could just use guys like Parnell or (enter low-priced guy that becomes trustworthy) to finish those non-save situations. Especially if Parnell is being groomed for a late-inning role, it would make sense to give him the limited pressure to close those out, anyway.
by MattT516 on Jan 13, 2011 11:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions
let it vest
The second Collins considers anything other than “Which decision helps me best win this game?” is the second i want him fired.
Sandy’s stated that he doesn’t expect to spend all the money coming off the books in 2012, which probably means nothing at this point right now, but all signs point to not needing that extra 14 million and being able to improve the team the same way with or without Frankie, who, by the way, almost definitely will be better than the seven other guys in the bullpen in 2012 otherwise. So you’d hurt the team for basically nothing. Factor in that it’s unlikely the Mets will go without a closer, and very well could go out and sign one with the money saved by not allowing the option to vest, and suddenly you haven’t really saved that much money and may end up with a lesser pitcher.
Screw the players association. Rodriguez’s contract does not use the word closer. it does not define his role. They can complain all they want, but the Mets are 100% within their rights to use him however they want. Just like with Cora, maybe these guys will realize that putting this options in is actually detrimental to them. They’re being tricked into thinking their contract is longer than it is, when in actuality the teams can work around them in many ways. If the Mets are out of it (they won’t be) in August, and Frankie has a hang-nail, expect him to hit the 60 day DL and/or be declared ‘unhealthy’.
How about a renegotiation as an alternative? He’s young, he’s a topshelf reliever. Buy his option year at a closer to reasonable 12million or something, but sign him for 2013 and 2014 as well.
Here’s another radical idea. Let your starters pitch. Don’t pull Dickey/Santana/Pelfrey in the 8th, particularly Dickey and Pelfrey who have proven to be workhorses and can handle it.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
The problem exists in
The fact that K-Rod would barely sniff half of $17.5m on the open market. That, and there are at least 6 good-to-top notch closers available next offseason. Looking at how much trouble Rafael Soriano is having this offseason being the only really good closer available, it’s almost certain that K-Rod could be replaced easily for at least half of that option.
Also, renegotiation would be a bad move. Given his off-field issues and the opportunity for savings next season with an equivalent closer in tow, we don’t need him for that money.
by MattT516 on Jan 13, 2011 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
issue
singular. Sure, but better the off-field issue you know (and he’s getting help for) than the one you don’t. I’d rather have K-Rod, who I know can do it, has done it here, and is relatively young, then gambling on being able to get ‘equivalency’ next season for less. I don’t think it’s “almost certain” for sure.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
So you don't think
that it’s “almost certain” that a closer can do exactly what K-Rod does for $9 million next year? I am almost willing to guarantee that one, maybe two closers next offseason, make that $9 million figure, and NONE of those guys will even sniff $17.5m, or within 5 million of that.
Next offseason, the following traditional closers are potentially available: Broxton, Bell, Valverde, Papelbon, Nathan, K-Rod, Capps, Lidge, Wood, Mike Gonzalez, and possibly Fuentes and Soriano once again. That is a very loaded closers market, to say the least. This, without the possibility of turning a middle reliever into a closer for maximum savings. Since all those guys are potentially available, it is highly likely that the Mets would be able to secure one of those guys in the $4-8 million range. Even with the $3.5m buyout, you’re still saving plenty of money and getting almost equivalent production.
Except
My plan actually gets more out of K-Rod than the way he was used last year. He’s more important against better batters in high leverage situations than mopping up the 7-8-9 hitters up three in the ninth even.
I agree, but
I do agree with the idea, I just don’t believe in a million years that a manager/Collins is going to basically redefine the notion of a closer.
I’d be all for using your best pitcher in the best situation, (and not always basically playing without him on the road), but how does Francisco feel about it? Granted, pitchers should suck it up and pitch when they’re told, but ego’s play in to it too. Will bringing him in the 8th and letting someone else get the last three outs at the bottom of the order piss him off to the point that he’s unhappy and less effective? (I’m sure we’re all less productive when we’re unhappy at our jobs) Can Terry realistically tell him “No” when he then demands to remain in for a second inning to close it out?
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
He may be well positioned to redefine it.
Sandy wanted more walks in the Oakland system, regardless of what conventional wisdom thought. He told managers to get more walks or they’d be fired, and he got more walks.
This team isn’t expected to do anything this year, so nobody loses a job if they don’t. It’s the perfect time.
12 million per = reasonable?
Are you shitting me?
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Theoretically ....
… an elite, lights out closer, on a team looking to make the post-season, 12M is reasonable. The real question is whether KRod is an elite closer.
A) We're not that team (and likely won't be next year either).
B) Krod’s not that elite, lights out closer; just a good one.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
this is the cost of marginal wins arguement
If you’re a 90 win team trying to get to 91 or 92, then you pay a premium for those couple wins wherever you can get them because you don’t really need to improve anything else, but a team that’s in the 80 win range can get more for the 12 million because they can spread it over multiple needs to upgrade a few positions.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 13, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
"12 million per = reasonable?"
Only to Oliver Perez and his agent. Even his momma thinks he is a way overpaid brat.
Spank him olliemomma, spank him!
by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 14, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Disagree with:
The second Collins considers anything other than "Which decision helps me best win this game?" is the second i want him fired.
You have to think long term. If Collins can win a game at the expense of two games later in the year, obviously thats a bad move. It is that train of though – whatever it takes to win today! – that leads to managers throwing 22 year old pitchers out there for 140 pitches.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
long term
Paint me the scenario where not using your best reliever is going to raise the odds of winning two games down the road?
And I have yet to be convinced that his option in 2012 will keep Alderson from making the moves he’ll need to make to improve the team, nor have I been convinced that K-Rod will not be perhaps the best option in 2012 of what we can get our hands on.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
Easy
If using him forces you to miss-allocate 17.5m the following year that could be used to add more wins than you receive by using the pitcher, you have cost more long term wins that you produced in the short term.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
next year
is then, this year is now.
It’s hardly a given that you can turn the 17.5 (really 14, as we’re basically saying buy the two draft picks with the 3.5 million) into more wins than you get with him pitching, particularly not if you realize the Mets have plenty of other money to use to do so, and you’re going to “need” a closer anyway. If you’re not going to spend the money anyway, due to flexibility or there just flat out not being ways to cost-effectively spend it, why not keep one of the best relief options around?
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
I would classify it as a given
This is where we may have to agree to disagree. KRod was worth 1.4 wins above replacement last year (fangraphs). In 2009, he was worth 0.3 WAR.
By contrast, everyone mocked the Nationals when they gave Werth that same money (126m/7yr = 18m per, so 500k more), yet he had a 5 WAR last year, and had been over 4 two years prior.
Look at the other big ticket FAs – Dunn, Konerko, Huff, Lee, Crawford – no one is getting as little as 1-2 war for a 17.5m player. It is obscene.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
This
There is no possible way Krod is worth the $14M or whatever he would make if it vests. In fact, over the last 10 years, no reliever has.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
This x2
Unless they can turn him into a #1 or #2 starter, that vest does not, and has never, made any sense.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Jan 13, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
This was an Omar signing
Are you surprised it makes no sense?
by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 14, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
My much simplier plan
Trade him in July to a team that doesn’t need a (traditional) closer, and can legitimately use him as a set up man.
Like, the Yankees. The Mets can pay all of his remaining salary/buyout for all I care. The Yankees would be dumb to say no — they get a free/cheap setup man and a Type A free agent. The Mets get out from under the 2012 contract and maybe get an elcheapo prospect in return.
It’s a win-win for everyone not named K-Rod.
Unless Froddy's agent is an idiot, trading Froddy won't change a thing.
If the Mets traded him to the Yankees who put him in a setup role, he should be able to file a grievance identical to the one he’d be able to file if the Mets kept him and simply put him in a setup role.
Of course, it’s not unusual for agents and lawyers to fuck up contracts, so there might be an out.
fans
and of course the fans that don’t want to see the Mets get worse during the season.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
Casual fans
Are not clamoring to see KRod on the mound.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
yes
Casual fans don’t clamor for anything. If the Mets are winning, people come to the ballpark. if the Mets are losing, no one comes to the ballpark. No one cares who’s on the team.
Trading him makes the Mets worse, at least in your scenario, and that means less fans come in September.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
No, my point was that
Casual fans are more turned off by the fact that KRod beat up the baby mama’s dad than they are by the one extra win he is expected to provide.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
To put the vest in perspective
Fangraphs values KRod’s 2010 at $5.5m. Here are his “Dollars” by year (all based on WAR & the Free Agent Scale):
Season Team Dollars
2002 Angels 0.6
2003 Angels 2.3
2004 Angels 12.3
2005 Angels 6.2
2006 Angels 9.4
2007 Angels 9.1
2008 Angels 8
2009 Mets 1.3
2010 Mets 5.5
My hatred of Omar has no bounds.
"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs
by Dandy Salderson on Jan 13, 2011 1:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It really is
just a horrible, horrible contract option for the team. I’d love to know what compelled Minaya to offer a contract structured in this way. Actually I’d probably rather not know. I’ll just assign it to general poor judgment.
I think BJ Ryan had signed a 5/50 deal with the Blue Jays.
The market was peaking, and there was talk that Rodriguez might even pull down 5/75, so to Omar the contract was a very tolerable 4/55. Rod’s agent read the market well, and Omar didn’t, and Omar structured contracts this way because it makes them look like better deals than they really are. He was also grossly overreacting to what he perceived as the bullpen meltdown of the previous year. Remember the 5 for 1 deal for JJ Putz, which would have paid Putz 8.5m in the second year of his deal—as the set up man?
Good times.
actually, the Frankie deal is 51/4
not 55/4. While it’s popular to talk about a $17.5 4th year option, the option really is “only” $14. Of course, no closer is worth that kind of money (especially in the WAR concept), but the truth is that 51/4 is not an outrageous deal for an elite closer. At that time, there were about 5 closers with comparable contracts. However, Minaya’s and Wilpon’s obscene preference for backloaded contracts makes the deal look much worse than it was.
Hang on--the option is 17.5, the buyout is 3.5, no? So if the option vests the Mets
are on the hook for 55 million total over four years. That seems to be how it’s portrayed in most sources. Do you have a link correcting that?
that is simply not true.
The reported 3/37 deal already includes the 3.5 buyout as it is guaranteed no matter what. There’s “just” 14 million extra. The contract only looks terrible because of the insane backloading.
Nah...BJ Ryan signed before 2006
when the Mets signed Wagner, which was another bad contract for a closer but at least they got a few strong seasons from him. It was Fuentes who was available when BB-Rod was out there.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 14, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yup--I wasn't saying that Ryan was signed immediately prior to Roddy's deal,
though I can see why you’d read my post that way. I should have been clearer and was thinking of it as the kind of deal for a guy with all of a couple of good seasons under his belt getting a startlingly large deal to close. Just looking for context from Minaya’s perspective, which I’m not defending. I think the overreaction to the bullpen problems of 2008 was unfortunate, and is obviously still causing problems to date.
Everything with K-Rod taken into account,
we sure dodged the bullet there with Fuentes.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 15, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
and to think Omar could have Heath Bell for nothing
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
i don't see the mets being able to pull this off
rodriguez always wants to come in because he wants his “work”. if collins says no to him, rodriguez makes a stink. if rodriguez makes a stink, the union will come after the mets. there’s no way the option doesn’t vest without risking the wrath of the union (though i’m not sure what the financial consequences of that would be)
i’m hoping for an injury or the sacrifice of another senior citizen, unfortunately.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
It should be pretty easy to keep the option from vesting
Only once in K-Rod’s career has he reached 55 saves+wins+losses (which seems like a decent proxy for “legitimate games finished for a closer”). Here are his totals over the years:
52
52
47
67
44
31
Meaning, as long as we don’t frequently use him in the 9th inning of losses and blowouts, there’s a pretty good chance he doesn’t make it to 55. We likely won’t have engage in any sabr-happy “relief ace” shenanigans to keep him from vesting.
If he needs to “get work in” in a non-save situation, there is absolutely no reason it has to be in the 9th inning, and I don’t see how the union would have any basis for a grievance if he pitches a few 7th or 8th innings of blowouts.
agree, a lot of his finishes have been pointless misuses of him in the name of getting work in
it’ll be tight, but i think we can manage to keep him under that vesting limit if we use him properly.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 13, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
This
There is no need to bring him in during a blowout because he hasn’t pitched in a week.
If he wants to pitch that badly, let him start
Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.
by Aidan Gibson on Jan 13, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
and should not
clever management of the krod vest be one of if not the main focus of our crack management team this season. these guys are smart enough to make every effort not to piss away more money on krod. i have to believe that they’re not just going to see the MLBPA coming and fold up their tents.
where is it written that the MLBPA always gets its way anyhow?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 13, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
There is precedent
If you remember from ‘Moneyball’, this is EXACTLY how Chad Bradford was utilized by Billy Beane (and DePodesta) and the A’s. The orders from management was to use their best reliever at any inning that the game was on the line – not just the 9th inning.
If the Mets use this strategy, they have to make sure that they have a nice paper trail from game 1 where by Collins is explicitly told by management how all relievers should be used in game situations. If they do it right, the player’s union can’t say jack, because DePodesta probably has a stack of paper an inch thick proving how best to use a relief pitcher in game situations.
by brooklynlou on Jan 13, 2011 7:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Right now I just feel happy
That what you wrote above—which is incredibly reasonable and well thought out—is even an option that we can seriously expect our FO to think of, much less deliberate, and most importantly, use.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Jan 13, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Having a front office that thinks is so awesome.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 14, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps for this reason they don't even care much about the vest
Perhaps DePodesta has already sent everyone an in-depth, 4-page memo about the proper use of relievers with regard to leverage, and looking at the numbers, it’s easy for everyone to see that he won’t come close to the games finished requirement if they use him the way they intend, as standard practice, to use relievers.
i want him to finish the season with 55 saves
If we play well enough to get him 55 saves then we make the playoffs.
Playoffs > $17.5m
by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 14, 2011 12:08 AM EST reply actions
Not when that 17.5 million keeps us from making the playoffs the next season.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 14, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
$17.5 = Yu Darvish
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 14, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Yu Darvish
as a closer!
"..."
by Thaddeus Ballpheasant on Jan 14, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
That was the secret for the Team Japan victory at the WBC.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis
The Unwritten Rules of AA
We make the playoffs and the stands at Citifield are creaking from being filled all season long
How much more money will the Mets make if K-Rod makes 55 saves and we are in the hunt all season verses K-Rod sitting in the bullpen all season long and we end up 4th?
$17.5m might be around 10% of the income from a strong season and a playoff run so I reiterate
Playoffs > $17.5m
by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 14, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
Leaving aside our obvious disagreement regarding the Mets' playoff chances,
you’re estimating the money from a playoff run wrong. It’s not whether $17.5 million is 10% of the Mets’ income from 2011, it’s how much extra they’d make from a playoff run. If being in contention somehow brings in an extra $175 million or more (pretty much impossible), then you might have an argument. But there’s still a few things wrong with that:
1) The Mets probably aren’t going to be in contention next year. The Phillies added Cliff Lee; the Braves, Dan Uggla and Scott Linebrink. The Mets’ patchwork rotation isn’t good enough to win the 90+ games it will take to win the division.
2) Rodriguez’ option vesting means that’s money that can’t be spent on other players who can help the team more. No closer is worth $17.5 million. If it doesn’t vest, he could easily be re-signed for less than half of that.
3) Ticket sales were down significantly last season (almost 8,000 per game), and that effect will likely carry over into the early months of the season. Even if the team gets off to a great start, it’s easy to see attendance being slow to recover.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 14, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
OT holy cow
the trailblazers are kind of metsian—i think they are holding mandatory knee surgeries for the entire team.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 14, 2011 12:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Ancient history
Who was the team that offered the $16 mill vest?
R.A. Dickey "I do have thoughts on that. I don’t want to make them public."
THE WALTER REED 3 - Terrible Teammates, Worse Human Beings.
Not to worry.....
something tells me this will take care of itself without an issue. It does not take much to get below 55 which is not exactly an easily attainable number.
Maybe we’ll have a huge lead in September and can sit Frankie down to get ready for the playoffs.
He has hit it every year but one
R.A. Dickey "I do have thoughts on that. I don’t want to make them public."
THE WALTER REED 3 - Terrible Teammates, Worse Human Beings.
Simple solution seems to be
Don’t let him finish games that are a non-save situation. There’s no way he’s getting more than 40 to 45 saves for this team.
simple solution: get K-Rod in trouble again! haha
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
This.
say he is somewhere in the 40’s in terms of games finished come August. Just bring in his father in-law….
Bye bye vest!
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 14, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Give his father-in-law and his ex season tickets right next to the Met dugout and let
Latino nature take it’s course.
by Putnan Prince on Jan 14, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
It will probably happen
Minaya zero accountability is probably a hard habit to kick
R.A. Dickey "I do have thoughts on that. I don’t want to make them public."
THE WALTER REED 3 - Terrible Teammates, Worse Human Beings.
Let's try this again....
Bad contract or not, head case or not, Frankie signed that contract Omar offered in good faith.
Any ‘perceived’ deviation to keep that clause from vesting, I believe will have more far reaching consequences than just the PA and a grievance.
How are the Mets supposed to attract good talent if the perception going forward is going to be ‘those contracts the Mets give out aren’t worth the paper their signed on’?
by MetsFan4Decades on Jan 14, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Different administration
R.A. Dickey "I do have thoughts on that. I don’t want to make them public."
THE WALTER REED 3 - Terrible Teammates, Worse Human Beings.
Pay Frankie the 17 mil OR
offer his Father-in-Law 100 grand to call him a pussy somewhere around the 50 games finished mark. Instant Round 2 complete with suspension and a savings of 16.9 mil.
Viola.
He talked about his mom before
This time he goes after grannie.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Jan 16, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions

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