The Mets Killers Team: Shortstop
by Matthew Callan on Jan 4, 2011 12:00 PM EST
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Some time last year, I was chatting online with some folks during another ridiculous, soul-crushing Mets loss. I'm not sure which one--take your pick, really--but if I remember correctly, the most damaging blow was delivered by a player who is known for hurting the Mets, and pretty much only the Mets. Such a player is often referred to as a Mets Killer.
As we licked our respective wounds, my friend surmised that if you took every active Mets Killer and put them on one team, that team would probably win, like, 60 games. My immediate response was to agree, but then I got to wondering. Would that really be the case?
This is what I would like to find out in a piece I'm working on for the impending Amazin Avenue Annual. But I would also like some help from you, the AA community. Deets on how you can pitch in after the jump.
I don't know when the term Mets Killer first came into use, but I feel like it's been around for quite a long time. Case in point: During the radio call of game two of the 2000 NLDS against the Giants, a particularly long at-bat in the bottom of the eighth of a 2-1 game prompted Bob Murphy to refer ominously to catcher Bobby Estalella as "something of a Mets Killer."
In this contest, the invocation of "Mets Killer" indicates two things to me: 1) it's a phrase with a long history (evidenced by the fact that Murphy, an original Mets broadcaster, would use it), and 2) that a Mets Killer is often (but not always) a thoroughly mediocre player against anyone but the Mets.
The primary example of a Mets Killer is Pat Burrell. Ask a Phillies fan what they think of Pat the Bat and you will probably get--at best--a mildly appreciative response. Burrell was at times considered something of a disappointment, a one-note player who could hit home runs when he felt like it but do little else. However, when Burrell hit home runs, there almost always seemed to be a Met on the mound.
While researching my In the Year 2000 posts, I rediscovered how far back this destruction went. That year, Burrell's rookie season, he had 4 homers and 11 RBIs in 10 games against the Mets. Two of his homers gave the Phillies a lead late in the game, and one was a grand slam against John Franco that blew a game wide open (responsible for 4 of 5 RBIs he had on the day). It was a harbinger of things to come; of his 285 career home runs, 42 have come against the Mets.
Long story short, my idea for this project is to apply a somewhat scientific method to a completely unscientific reaction. I'd like to pick out the primary Mets Killer at each position (active players only) and see what kind of team that would result in. I would like the picks to be completely emotional. Whether the splits show he does better against the Mets than other teams is completely beside the point. I want you to literally choose the first guy who comes to mind when you think of a particular position + Mets Killer. The only position I'm not going to poll is third base, because, c'mon.
First up is shortstop. I'm sure there will be many emotional reactions to this list, and I'm curious to see which choice will win out. This runs slightly counter to the outlined premise above, since several of these players are actually good against non-Mets teams.
Please select one player from the list below. If you think somebody else beside these folks deserves the nod, please comment accordingly; if there's enough of an outcry, I will opt for the write-in candidate.
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I can't ever recall Jetah ever really doing anything to warrant this, and Eckstien isn't soul-crushing as much as an annoying little buzz
Hanley has been a thorn, but not to a ridiculous extent. Maybe it’s Rollins being one of the ten biggest deuchebags in baseball (the other 9 being the rest of that day’s Philly lineup and Ollie), but every time he gets a hit it hurts inside.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 4, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions
Maybe time has healed that wound
In retrospect, the fact that the 2000 Mets actually got to the world series blows my mind. I’m really not that upset over the loss anymore, as we were definitely the inferior team.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 4, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
the Yankees won 87 games
the Mets won 94. The ‘99-’00 Mets combined for 191 regular season wins to the Yankees 185. Even factoring in the postseason, those Yankees only won 207 to the Mets 204, and that’s with 2 titles. The ‘98 Yankees were light years better than either the ’99 or 2000 Mets, but the 2000 Yankees were actually one of the worst World Series champions of the past few decades – I guess being part of that dynasty brings them up a notch, but on their own merits they really weren’t very good (and only slightly better than the 2006 Cardinals. I hate being a Mets fan).
2009 Did Not Happen
Just check out team WAR numbers for that season
The Mets were worth 39.5 WAR, meaning they were likely greatly superseding expectations by winning 94 games (87 would have been the expected total). They were a great team to watch, but realistically they weren’t one of the more deserving teams in baseball. The Yankees weren’t by any means great that season either, but their expected win total was still higher than the Mets (bad luck seems to have been affecting them some). There were also several other teams that were better than either of them.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 4, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
really?
IMO jeter always seems to come up with hits against the Mets, lots of times when they hurt most.
in sticking with the theme here i’m not looking this up but the guy must bat .380 against us. the only thing that kept me sane back in the heyday of the subway series rivalry was the fact that piazza always seemed to return the favor.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 4, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Jeter long-term wise; his highest career OPS (min. 100 PA) vs any team is the Mets, and it beats out any of those other guys. But more closer to the present day, I’d probably go with Rollins.
I followed the rules and voted Rollins based on emotion
But followed up and his splits vs. NYM weren’t THAT great, except for 2007 when he went beast mode.
Image credit for Jerrysaurus goes to astromets
Following the rules is false hustle
so I voted for Hanley Ramirez.
"The Mets are gonna be amazing!" - Casey Stengel
Hanley Ramirez
is a punk on the Doucherino level.
He can kiss my ass a thousand ways and I’ll hate him until he mummifies.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!? Right here: http://myentireteam.wordpress.com/
by CharlieH on Jan 4, 2011 1:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree, but I voted for Rollins
The criteria said someone who is only meh against other teams than the Mets. Hanley is a beast against a lot of people, not just us. Rollins on the other hand, besides being a douche, had great success against the Mets but has only been eh against other competition, particularly recently
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jan 4, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I voted Rollins
but that last comment gets you a rec from me.
by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 4, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
Hanley is awesome
In the Chan Ho Park game I often lament, when he was announced, and was walking up to the plate from the on-deck circle, me and my sister saw him make like a “Oh, man, come on. What did I do?” gesture when he got booed pretty heavily (back in ‘07). Since then, he’s been cool in my book- except for when he does things to make us lose.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 5, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
Mike Bordick
For the 2000 WS alone. Oh, wait, it has to be opposing players?
by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 4, 2011 1:40 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
i did consider Furcal
i debated including him rather than Eckstein, but ultimately went with Mr. Grission himself
by Matthew Callan on Jan 4, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
rec just for the photo heh
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Rollins
because he’s not that great of a player but always seems to do something to us in every series and since because I want to follow the rules, I can’t look up the numbers to see if Jeter had any larger of a negative impact in less opportunity.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Really, Rollins?
Except for 2007, I feel like the Mets have actually owned him in recent years, stemming from the time he was late to a game. There are lots of Phillies who scare me a hell of a lot more than Rollins.
This should be Jeter, easily.
2009 Did Not Happen
How many opportunities has he even had to hurt us?
Can be that many in comparison to Rollins.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I think that's what makes it worse
we barely see Jeter, and yet I feel like everytime we do, he kills us. We see Rollins all the time, and except for a few occassions, mostly bunched into one month (albeit one particularly awful month), I don’t really remember Rollins doing much of anything against us.
2009 Did Not Happen
i voted Hanley
he seems to feast on the Mets staff/pen no matter the time of the season. Oh..but does he enjoy sticking it to us especially at the end of the season. shakes fist
i can only asume center field is Shane Dicktorino.
i can only asume 3rd is Larry “Chipper, i named my kid Shea which is a dick move” Jones
I hate Philadelphia so much.
For the record
Jeter: 1.015 career OPS vs Mets
Ramirez: .817 career OPS vs Mets
Rollins: .768 career OPS vs Mets
Eckstein: .738 career OPS vs Mets
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
FACTS BAD!
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
intangibles
GOOOD!
"The '69 Mets will live on forever. But do you think anybody cares about Ron Swoboda's wife and kids? Not me! And I assume not Ron Swoboda" --Homer Simpson
Well, Ruben Tejada Puppy will take on the dog in the picture.
"The '69 Mets will live on forever. But do you think anybody cares about Ron Swoboda's wife and kids? Not me! And I assume not Ron Swoboda" --Homer Simpson
That's Ruben Tejada puppy!
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 5, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
tie: Rollins and Ramirez
Eckstien is irrelevant
Jeter… meh. We play the Marlins and Phillies much more.
John Franco HOF 2011
Eckstein is irrelevant?
May I point you to www.grission.com
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
Grissiony
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 5, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
He got the lone hit
off Trachsel that day in Anaheim.
For what it's worth
I wrote a column three years back where I devised a number to determine who the real Met-killers were. I decided the best way to do this was by looking at the difference between a player’s OPS against the Mets and their career averages, then adding a weight for sample size (feeling that it’s much more difficult to kill a team in particular the more at-bats you see). It doesn’t take into account hitting in big spots (there was no elegant way of factoring that in at the time), but it did determine who really outperformed expectations when facing the Mets.
As it turns out, the top two active players included in the sample were shortstops. One you mentioned, Jeter, who, when including the postseason has been absolutely incredible against the Mets. But the number one guy isn’t often thought of as a Met killer: Alex Gonzalez. Gonzalez didn’t spring to my mind when I started the study, but as soon as I saw his name, I remembered how aggravating facing him really was.
Question about your formula
How does the weight re: guys in and out of division work? I mean there are some guys in the same division…Willie Harris….you are notable only because they are in the same division and suck….Willie Harris…when playing anyone but the Mets…[Name one of 12 players on the Marlins in the past few years]. I would think that things like familiarity with the opposing team would counter some matters related to SSS. Then again, guys who play a lot would seem to self-select as a team-killers because if you play someone six times a year there’s limited opportunity to be one (thinking in light of the WPA idea below).
Also, could you use WPA or something as a proxy for “big” situations, more because the title “Met killer” seems to incorporate a little bit of subjective ZOMGWTFINEEDABEERNAO-ness (which WPA is pretty good as measuring, as a purely descriptive measure of how much you have tended to turn around games, or maybe just fan pain). I mean, even if someone consistently hit well against a team, but always did it in blowouts, I wouldn’t think of him as a team-killer. Also because SSS both impedes a great assessment and I’ll probably be in the minority on this but I thought I’d throw it out there.
And don’t take these questions the wrong way, I find the formula both interesting and hilarious (in a good way). Oh, I know I’m wrong about the Willie Harris splits, but I don’t care. I hate that guy.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Jan 4, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
The weight
Don’t recall what exactly I used but it was pretty much just a weight to give me numbers that looked interesting. There’s really no right or wrong to it when you’re dealing with a fairly subjective matter. I just wanted a systemic way of looking at this that seemed as fair as possible using the methods that were available at the time (remember, this was 2007; there were fewer tools available then, and I had to pull the stat lines out one at a time for hundreds of players—tedious).
There are several problems with using WPA for something like this. First, WPA is a raw number. The player doesn’t really have an average against other teams with which you can compare his WPA against the Mets. Now, you could average it out over plate appearances and do the same with his career number. My instinct is to say that if you did that, you’d wind up with a lot of guys who you’d never think of as Met-Killers (though I don’t know — I just have a sense you’d get some wonky numbers). It would be worth trying, however, if not for the final problem: pulling the Mets-specific data for each player. Mine was a historical study, and that would be a very annoying task at best (impossible at worst, because the WPA databases don’t go back to 1962, as far as I know).
good memory, the main problem with that is the Mets pitchers always threw strikes to Alex Gonzalez
instead of throwing outside, in the dirt…etc. We made Alex Gonzalez look like Babe Ruth.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Willie Harris....
So he’s usually in the outfield, he could be put in at short and would still kill the Mets.
I actually just looked at Harris' stats for the past two years
Weirdly, he actually does worse in some respects against the Mets. I couldn’t figure it out. My eyes, they are failing me apparently.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Jan 4, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Mayber it's jsut that he waits....
until the critical time, and then snaches defeat from the jaws of victory for us.
Harris has to be in LF
Wasn’t that where he made that fucking catch?
by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 4, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Which fucking catch? There's so many...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 5, 2011 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
As soon as I saw this post
Willie Harris was the first guy I thought of. I mean, he really, really sucks at baseball, but he’s KILLED us in some key moments. Every time we lose to the Nationals, it seems like Willie f*cking Harris is front and center.
2009 Did Not Happen
How is Jorge Cantu not on this survey?
No, I didn’t do the research (don’t care enough) but that guy feasted on Mets pitching. Also Mark Reynolds of late has been tearing us up at home.
Cantu = 1B
at least for the purpose of this project, because we all know who the 3B is gonna be…
by Matthew Callan on Jan 4, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Rollins: let me give you my reasons.
Unlike anyone since Larry, it seems like Jimmy Rollins has made it his mission to try to destroy and demean the Mets. Ever since the first stanza of the “team to beat” nonsense he’s just been a dick to us in every way, on and off the field. I loathe him with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. His face makes me want to vomit and fire a weapon in equal amounts.
I too loathe him
but he isn’t that good against us! He’s a dickbag who takes credit for his teammates success, but that doesn’t make him a Met killer in my eyes.
2009 Did Not Happen
ALL TIME
Pat the Bat certainly rates high as a Met-Killer, but all-time it has to be Andy Van Slyke (both with the Pirates & Cardinals). Mike Scott is up there on the list also.
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