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Around SBN: VIDEO: Veterans Share Favorite Sports Memories

The Big Do-over

During this surprisingly exciting World Series (shows what I know), I've heard it lamented more than once that the Mets gave up on Nelson Cruz and got nothing but Jorge Velandia in return. I normally support any kind of anti-Steve Phillips prejudice you can imagine, but this seems a bit unfair. Cruz had barely played above the instructional level when the Mets traded him away, was subsequently dismissed by two more teams (Oakland and Milwaukee), and took nine years to become an everyday major leaguer, an astronomical amount of time.

It's a familiar refrain, one that pops up any time a former Met farmhand does even remotely well. Earlier this year, people moaned when ex-prospect Philip Humber took a no-hitter into the seventh against the Yankees. "All we got back for him was lousy stinking Johan Santana!" Much like the grousing over Cruz, it ignored the fact that Humber has bounced among several organizations since his days in the Mets' system.

However, if people jump the gun on judgments like this, it's because the Mets have committed some terrible prospect trades in their day. With the exception of some bright periods (late 1960s, early 1980s), the team has traditionally been awful in its ability to hang onto its talent long enough to see it ripen. Mets history is littered with the names of players who were shipped off in short-sighted swaps and became superstars elsewhere.

So let's do our own Mets-themed issue of What If? Let's say you could wave a wand or press a button, and one--and only one--terrible prospect trade in Mets history could be undone. Which one would you pick?

Star-divide

This excludes the Tom Seaver trade; obviously, that's the worst trade in Mets history for a million different reasons, and allowing that to enter the contest makes this a no brainer. I'd also like to focus on players who had yet to become stars when the Mets unloaded them. I'm talking about players who the Mets gave up on before they could show their potential, and whose absence in subsequent years makes you pine for what could have been.

The first impulse is to say Nolan Ryan, but I'm not so sure. It's always been theorized that he only became a star when he went to the American League and benefited from its strike zone, and I'm inclined to agree with that. Another point to consider is that, as awesome as Ryan would become once he left the Mets, pitching was not their issue. Their 1-2-3 of Seaver, Jerry Koosman, and Jon Matlack was arguably among the best in the league at that time. Would the Mets have been better off with Ryan than Jim Fregosi? Of course, and it remains one of the more indefensible trades in the history of the team (if not the sport), but I wonder just how much a difference Ryan would have made for a team that was already loaded with pitching.

For trades that really hurt, I think you have to look at ones where the Mets shipped off the kind of player they lacked when they needed him the most. The offense-starved teams of the early 1970s sure could have used players like Amos Otis and Ken Singleton. Unfortunately, both were shipped out of town before they could contribute much at the major league level (though Singleton did bring back Rusty Staub).

Imagine what the Mets could have done with that aforementioned 1-2-3 if they had a halfway decent lineup. The NL East back then was not exactly a powerhouse division (hence why the 1973 Mets were able to win it). Perhaps several playoff berths could have been theirs. Maybe such sustained success could have kept Seaver in town after all? I know, M. Donald Grant would have found some other way to drive him out of town, but hell, it's my fantasy.

For a more recent example, what about Heath Bell? He spent most of his time with the Mets on the shuttle between Norfolk and Shea. He didn't show a whole lot in his appearances in the bigs to that point, but you got the impression that no one in the organization had much faith in him, either. He was traded to San Diego before the 2007 season for the immortal Jon Adkins and the irreplaceable Ben Johnson, and finally figured things out at Petco Park.

Would he have done so for the Mets? Would he ever have been given a chance with the Mets? Impossible to say. I do know that 2007 turned out the way it did, and that the team's atrocious pitching was the biggest reason why. Bell had a WAR of 3.5 that season, and he wasn't even San Diego's closer yet. The Mets missed out on the playoffs by one game. Do the math. It's hard for me to not think that the spiral of pain and LOLs the team has been caught in since then could have been avoided with another playoff berth, not matter how it ended, which to me makes Bell's trade one of the more painful ones in team history.

So, now that you have the parameters, if you could undo just one terrible prospect trade in Mets history, which one would it be and why? Make the call in the comments.

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It has to be Nolan Ryan for me

I’m not looking at just what Ryan could have done for the Mets in the 70’s when they had that great staff, but in the 80’s as well. Even in his 40’s he was still an effective pitcher, for a bunch of Mets teams on the cusp he could have been the difference. You also have to wonder what might not have happened if he was still a Met. Would we still have felt the need to trade for Frank Viola? The 90’s could look an awful lot different if not for some of the moves in the late 80’s early 90’s. It sure would have been nice to have Ryan’s 80.8 WAR he put up in his time after he was traded.

by Stephen Schmidt on Oct 26, 2011 11:33 AM EDT reply actions  

ryan

ryan is the obvious one but I just have the feeling that if he stayed with the Mets, he would have never had the chance to develop into the pitcher he became. He was always behind Seaver, Koosman, Gentry, Matlack etc etc. Its a good chance that if he remained with the Mets, he would have been turned into a bullpen guy, probably a set up guy pitching ininngs 6,7,& 8.

by fhc1224 on Oct 26, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, but I can't stand when people lament the Ryan trade as the worst Mets move ever (Seaver notwithstanding)

Not you specifically, but just in general. It would’ve been nice for him to be around, but when he was with us, he regularly had blister injury troubles, was wild, was “blocked” by Seaver, Koosman, Gentry, Matlack, and all of the other phenomenal pitchers on the team in the late ‘60s and early ’70s, and had active duty National Guard service that called for him to leave for Texas or wherever every other week, or whatever it was. The Mets and Nolan Ryan, it just wasn’t in the stars. Jim Fregosi, at the time, was a six-time All-Star and perennial MVP candidate (at the bottom portion of the votes, mind you), and we needed a third baseman. It’s not like the team was so inept they traded Tom Seaver in his prime for a schmuck. No, wait…

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 26, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Mostly this…

…except for the last two sentences. Seaver wasn’t traded for a schmuck, he was traded for four (four!) players (not prospects) who had already had some success. I remember being in the car with my parents on our way to some summer vacation spot when we heard the news over the radio. My first response was, “How could they trade Seaver?”, but when I heard who they got back my second reaction was, “We just got better.” I thought we ripped the Reds off blind.

Remember, that was back in the pre-SABRE days, when it was harder to evaluate deals.

by Curtis3331 on Oct 28, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

prospect trade

while it sounds crazy now with his production the last 2 years, the trade of Jason Bay to San Diego in 2002 for Jason Middlebrook is the one I would take back. Bay never got the chance to show what he could do in the Mets system and was basically a throw in the trade as Bobby Jones was the main piece San Diego acquired. It would have been nice to have Bay in left field from 2004 on. Imagine him in the lineup with Beltran, Delgado, Floyd, LoDuca, Wright, & Reyes in 2006 & 2007. if we had him from the beginning of his career, he would either have been traded for quality prospects before hitting free agency or be signed to a much more reasonable contract then he has now.

by fhc1224 on Oct 26, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

beat me to it

I just used Fangraphs WAR figures instead of BR, but the points are identical.

Mark Cuban for owner! Save us from the Wilpons!

by Greenpoint Ian on Oct 26, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

With guys like Cruz and Jose Bautista they were so far away from being stars that there’s really no way to know if they would have developed into the players they are today if they had stayed with the Mets, since both made adjustments after they left the organization. Kazmir, however, was basically major league ready the day he was traded.

by joma16 on Oct 26, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is definitely the best recent one

Ryan historically probably takes the cake, but Kazmir is a great one. Bay isn’t bad either.

To be fair, every team has this – Look at the duds the Royals got for David Cone both times. Or Beltran from the Astros.

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by Cory Braiterman on Oct 26, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

It’s the only trade that actually cost the Mets a legitimate World Series shot and multiple other playoff appearances.

Maybe Ryan would have helped win that ‘73 Series, but I doubt it – the Mets pitching wasn’t the problem in that series, not nearly the way pitching was the problem in ’06, ’07, and ’08.

Time to update this: 2009 Did Not Happen. Neither did 2010. Or 2011. Sports suck.

by cjmulrain on Oct 26, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the Kazmir trade looked so smart at the time . . .

It’s easy to second guess now, but as we all recall, everyone thought it was a splendid idea to trade a high ceiling lefty so a fourth place team could make a playoff push based on an injured wild pitcher that had never been more than passable. Jeez, you Monday morning quarterbacks drive me crazy.

by goquakers on Oct 26, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

I just checked Zambrano’s stats. How did anyone think he was ever a major league pitcher? All I need is my spreadsheet!

Astro Travellin'

by BlackOps on Oct 26, 2011 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel sick just thinking about it

__________________________________________________________________
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by ScottfromPeekskill on Oct 27, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kazmir, no question

Yes, he’s cooked now at a young age (a la Steve Avery), but look at what he did from 2005-2008. WARs of 3.8, 3.9, 5.3, and 2.0 coinciding with 4 good-but-not-good-enough Mets teams. I’m not sure he would have been enough to get us to the postseason in 2005, or would have made the lineup solve Jeff Weaver and Jeff Suppan in the 2006 NLCS, but he would have been our best or 2nd-best starter both seasons. 2007 is the real killer. A 5.3 WAR when John Maine was our best pitcher with a 2.7 WAR. There is no doubt in my mind we make the playoffs in 2007 with Kazmir. Probably in 2008 too, even if he was starting to fade by then.

If that trade doesn’t happen, the Mets probably make the playoffs 3 times in that span, and who knows? Maybe a world championship too.

Mark Cuban for owner! Save us from the Wilpons!

by Greenpoint Ian on Oct 26, 2011 11:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Kazmir, by far

As was mentioned, if Kazmir was around in 2006-2008, we win the division at the very least each one of those years.

The Bannister trade irked me, too.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 26, 2011 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

one that's really overlooked

mora for mike bordick. mora wasn’t quite a prospect but he still only had under 300 career pa’s in the bigs at the time of trade.

mora would go on to post roughly 16 WAR (fangraphs) in his first contract for the orioles, about 27.5 over the life of his baltimore career, which included two reasonable extensions. all that versus well under 1 WAR from bordick as a Met.

in terms of quantifiable value, that one blows the kazmir deal out of the water. however, once you start to incorporate the idea of perceived value, namely kazmir’s as a blue chip prospect, that’s when it gets tougher…

by Rob Castellano on Oct 26, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

good points, but...

I think overall quantifiable value has to be taken under consideration in context of the teams of that time. Mora’s best seasons were 2002-2005, and the Mets sucked in each of those seasons except 2005, by which time they had David Wright. I don’t think Mora would have made the 2004 Mets contenders, as good as he was.

Kazmir, on the other hand, might have actually what would have been needed to put the Mets over the top at least once from 2006 to 2008.

Mark Cuban for owner! Save us from the Wilpons!

by Greenpoint Ian on Oct 26, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

bah, beat me while I was typing my similar response

Time to update this: 2009 Did Not Happen. Neither did 2010. Or 2011. Sports suck.

by cjmulrain on Oct 26, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

also, timing

Mora would have been the best player on some pretty bad teams, but by ‘06 he was basically a below-average batter, and he would have lost even more value b/c he would have been playing 2nd base (or somewhere else) instead of SS, or ::gulp:: would have blocked Reyes ever making the team causing what would easily have been the trade everyone here would be talking about instead of the ones we’re currently talking about.

Time to update this: 2009 Did Not Happen. Neither did 2010. Or 2011. Sports suck.

by cjmulrain on Oct 26, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

and I say this as a big Melvin Mora fan

just don’t think it’s in the same category as the Kazmir trade.

Time to update this: 2009 Did Not Happen. Neither did 2010. Or 2011. Sports suck.

by cjmulrain on Oct 26, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah this one drove me nuts too.

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by meigs1414 on Oct 26, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lenny Dykstra and Roger McDowell...

For Juan Samuel….That’s at the top of my list.

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by MookieTheCat on Oct 26, 2011 12:44 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Completely agree on the Dykstra trade

I knew it was bad when it was happening and it was sadly proved to be true.

by jacksonvillesuns on Oct 26, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

SAMUEL

That brings up some bad memories. Terrible, awful trade.

by MDMETSFAN on Oct 27, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are they prospects if they become Major League regulars?

I think that’s why I discounted Ryan here. The term “prospect” connotes “up-and-comer” and not necessarily “player biding time on roster until he breaks out in significant way.” That bumped out Mike Scott for me, too.

Kazmir seems like the obvious answer, though. It’s not that he would’ve been the greatest pitcher in Mets history if he stayed. It’s that Duquette traded him for a bag of balls when his value at that point was worth so much more.

Jagr? Seriously?

by Matthew Artus on Oct 26, 2011 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

BAERGA

Has everyone forgotten Kent & Vizciano for Baerga?

by MDMETSFAN on Oct 26, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Kent would have never gotten a chance to play in a couple years time

Plus he was just a dick. The fact that we gave up Cone for him is the maddening part.

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by piazza62 on Oct 26, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

There is no guarantee that Ryan develops like he eventually did if he stays here (by his own admission).

Kazmir, on the other hand, not only gets us to the playoffs in 2007/2008, he’d also be an upgrade on Steve Trachsel in the NLCS and that (maybe) gets the team to the World Series in 2006.

There’s a reason Primer had an immolation thread when the trade went down.

Oh pissing blimey there's jam coming out of the walls!

by TWilliAM on Oct 26, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

If you think Cruz trade was some major blunder

You should never support any trade of any prospect, ever. Find the shittiest player on our GCL team, and he could theoretically become a major league regular in nine years.

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that Nelson Cruz is not a superstar, or even a great player. Hitting 6 HR in ALCS doesn’t mean you’re the new baseball deity. To cherry-pick a stat you know what was Cruz’s OBP against right-handed pitchers this year? .284. Heckuva a job on that intentional walk, Tony!

by Philip Larkin on Oct 26, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Still imagine having Cruz in LF over Bay right now

A good defender who hits for power and average and has a good arm and some speed. Instead, we have Bay.

Mets, Jets, Islanders, Knicks.
GO RANGERS! Get Endy a ring!

by piazza62 on Oct 26, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Difference is much smaller than you think

Cruz was 1.6 WAR player in 2011 and Bay was 0.7. This is slightly unfair to Cruz because he had a much better year in 2010, but then again, Bay too used to be very good not so long ago.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 26, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point is that

We traded him immediately for a completely useless player, and two other franchises allowed him to toil in the farms for years on end.

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by piazza62 on Oct 26, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cruz was also hurt twice this year.

Using his WAR for this season is misleading.

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Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 26, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Classic trades?

Wilpon and Doubleday for just Wilpon. Worst move in Mets history.

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by future on Oct 26, 2011 1:36 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

even though I loved Heap

Mike Scott for Danny Heap anyone?

Am I doing this right?

by brooklynberger on Oct 26, 2011 2:22 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Surprised no one mentioned the Amos Otis for Joe Foy trade

One of the worst trades you could possibly make and Otis was coming off a gret year in the minors.

by graves9 on Oct 26, 2011 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

It wasn't just AO for Foy

It was Otis plus Bob Johnson. And Johnson’s couple of good seasons for the Royals makes it seem bad enough. The fact that Otis was so damn good for KC makes it seem awful.

Mets, Jets, Islanders, Knicks.
GO RANGERS! Get Endy a ring!

by piazza62 on Oct 26, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand you on Nolan Ryan

but for me, it’s Nolan Ryan hands down. I hated that trade when they made it. Almost as much as I hated the Seaver one.

We really don’t know how he would have fared had he stayed in the NL. And maybe his addition to the staff would have netted one more WS championship and put us over the As in ’73.

by MetsFan4Decades on Oct 26, 2011 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

I wonder if they wind up trading F!

if we’re going to be talking about giving up on him too early down the road as he wins a batting title or some such thing on another team.

by MetsFan4Decades on Oct 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I still think its to early to ditch him

It seems like he’s been around forever, yet he’s still only 23 and playing at the AAA level.

Mets, Jets, Islanders, Knicks.
GO RANGERS! Get Endy a ring!

by piazza62 on Oct 26, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could end up being wrong

but I think he’s another Alex Escobar. I don’t see him ever biting them on the ass after the Mets trade him. He at this stage is as injury prone as it gets and has regressed as a hitter and his defense is pretty damn bad.

by graves9 on Oct 26, 2011 4:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think he gets dealt this offseason.

The way I see it, he’s still young enough to entice a GM as a reclamation project AND he’s got one more option year before running out of options in 2013. If the front office is going to deal him, this is the one to do it. Next year he’ll be 24, out of options with little big league experience and a lot of lost time. He’d have to really bust out in 2012 to have higher value than he does now.

I just don’t really see him fitting with this team. His speed is virtually gone, so he can’t really play the outfield, he’s got little to no plate discipline and he can’t stay on the field. He’s got potential as a hitter but I could see Sandy trying wash his hands, clear the 40 man spot and move on. It’s sad that it’s come down to that but I think we’re at about that point.

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by Steve Schreiber on Oct 26, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather cut Bay and give him a real chance in the majors

F!‘s trade value is so far down at this point that I don’t really see the point in dealing him — if he’s going to be someone’s reclamation project, he might as well be ours.

by anonymous on Oct 26, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to dump Bay no matter what, but

Fernando really hasn’t earned a chance to play in the majors at this stage. He was stupidly rushed up in ‘09-10 and wasn’t helped by that. He needs to stay healthy and hit to get a chance to play up here and he really did neither in 2011.

by graves9 on Oct 26, 2011 4:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Much as I love Rusty...

…it has to be Ken Singleton, Tim Foli and Mike Jorgensen for Rusty Staub.

Close second is Amos Otis and Bob Johnson for Joe Foy.

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by CharlieH on Oct 26, 2011 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Kazmir

It doesn’t matter how his career ended up, it was such a short sighted move.

by Shinjo Is God on Oct 27, 2011 1:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed.

__________________________________________________________________
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by ScottfromPeekskill on Oct 27, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

This.

It’s all about the perceived value of Kazmir in 2004. He was being dangled for superstars the offseason before and then got traded for…Victor Zambrano?!?!

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by Steve Schreiber on Oct 27, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Having Kazmir in 2007 and 2008 would have put us over the edge

But would it have really made a difference in 2006? Starting pitching really wasn’t the cause of the downfall in that series except for perhaps games 3 and 5. But Trachsel would most likely have gotten that start anyway, as would Glavine. Who knows, maybe Kazmir throws a shutout in game 2 or 7, but he might not have ultimately have made a difference.

The trade still sucked, don’t get me wrong, but it might not have made the difference for 2006.

On a side note, the only game I saw in 2006 was Zambrano’s final start.

by dcmetsfan on Oct 27, 2011 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

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