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State of the Team post 2011

Now that the Mets have completed year one of the Sandy Alderson epoch the time has come to make some overall observations. Looking objectively there are both signs of hope and reasons for skepticism, at least for the near future.

     On one hand it should be obvious to all serious observers that the team’s culture changed for the better in 2011. There was more hustle and heart displayed by the 2011 Mets than in previous seasons. The Mets finished 2nd in the National League in OBP and 6th in the league in runs scored despite a plague of injuries to their main offensive players and finishing at the bottom of the league in SLG, the result of a moneyball emphasis on hitting discipline (a long overdue improvement) Alderson made an excellent trade in dumping K-Rod’s salary and a seemingly excellent trade in acquiring Zach Wheeler from the Giants for Carlos Beltran. It’s also clear that the Mets under Alderson are finally investing serious money in the draft, drafting guys with high ceilings as opposed to safer, short term picks. These changes bode well for the long term. 

     On the other hand the Mets did only win 77 games and the prospects for a big improvement in the next season or two can appear to be limited. Basically there are two scenarios that would go something like this:

 

  • Keeping the team in tact the way it is. Resign Reyes, hope Ike Davis can come back and continue to develop into a long term first baseman, hope that David Wright’s regression in recent seasons halts or reverses, hope that Santana can be close to the same pitcher he was before the shoulder surgery, hope Jason Bay can finally resemble the player he was before he came to the Mets, hope Angel Pagan’s and Mike Pelfrey’s 2011 seasons were statistical flukes, and envision the Jon Neise and Dillon Gee can develop in consistent starters while Harvey, Wheeler, Familia, and Mejia finish their minor league development. Stick with Lucus Duda in right field. Move the fences in to improve the general power of the team. Throw together another bullpen on the cheap and maybe tweak the catcher position.

 

     Whispers coming out of the Mets organization seem to point in this direction. It’s not hard to see why: not resigning Reyes would be a pr disaster. Wright only has one year left on his current contract (with a team only option) and therefore may not fetch a big return in a trade. Jason Bay is going anywhere and at the moment there appear to be no significant outfielder free agent market that offers a significant upgrade, particularly for a reasonable price. And with the payroll getting cut there isn’t money to sign a Prince Fielder or Albert Pujols. The Mets already have about $60 million locked up in David Wright, Johan Santana, Jason Bay, and R.A. Dickey. Add about $20 million if Reyes’ is signed. If the payroll is fixed to come in at $110 million it leaves $30 million or so for the rest of the roster. Major changes wouldn’t be coming and fans may have to accept another season with a .500 season ceiling (maybe slightly above if everything goes perfectly).

     Yet one wonders to what extent Sandy Alderson is willing go through another season with what would be still essentially Omar Minaya’s players.  Is there another possible scenario that would go something like this:

 

  • Despite showing every inclination that they want to resign Reyes, it is quite possible that given Reyes injury history, the Mets’ front office won’t go above a certain price or length that another team may be willing to grant. Reyes not resigning would free up $20 million to spend elsewhere, perhaps to sign a player like Nick Swisher (usually known as a Sandy Alderson type)  whose option the Yankees may not be inclined to pick up after another awful postseason and still have money to sign another player or two. Or perhaps the offensive starved San Francisco Giants would be willing to trade one of their pitchers, say Matt Cain, for David Wright (both players are due to earn $15 million next season so such a swap would make financial sense)

 

     All the above is pure speculation of course but while the details are vague the general theme is not. History shows us that off-seasons feature GMs willing to handout outrageous contracts (see Carl Crawford, Jason Werth, Alex Rodriguez, Alfonso Soriano, etc). If Reyes received such an offer it’s hard to believe he’ll give the Mets a hometown discount. And a trade involving Wright, while probably unlikely given his current value and contract, should no longer be thought of as unthinkable. Either would substantially change the look of the team. Yet that would seem to be Sandy Alderson’s purpose.




 

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Given that the team is stuck in a hazy middle ground

in that, on paper, with a few breaks the team could theoretically compete for a playoff spot in the dog days of Summer, but if we don’t get those couple of breaks, we’re not (see 2010, 2011), I don’t see Sandy doing anything particularly major to change/break up the team.

We’re too good to go into a truly rebuilding phase, but we’re not good enough to go toe-to-toe with the powerhouses of the National League in the standings.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 7, 2011 2:57 PM EDT reply actions  

you're right...

but I’m thinking, and this is just speculating, but they may still be improved using the $20 million they’ll have to give Reyes on a player like Swisher, if he’s free, and maybe another player or two and/or trading Wright for a pitcher if the Giants (or someone) would go for it. Having either Wright, say Swisher, and another player instead of Reyes (of course let’s factor his injuries) or having Reyes and say Cain (I think that one is actually doable given how bad the Giants need offense) instead of Wright. They proved they could score runs this year and they definately just need to stockpile better players. Pagan is certainly no long term answer, Duda is still hazy, catcher the same. Just thinking out loud. We’ll see how it goes

by moneyballny on Oct 7, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure Swishers option gets picked up

and if not, he’s going to be looking for a big contract, probably not going to be a cheap addition. I’d rather pay a premium for a SS than a corner outfielder.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 7, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

think so? I don't see Tron ending up in NY

maybe just wishful thinking though.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 7, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Know JR Morales who co-owns Sofritos restaurant in mid-town with Carlos Beltran through the

Restaurant Association we belong to.He says Carlos would kill to come back to NY and his agent will see if the Yankees have interest.Does not like SF and neither does his wife.

by Putnan Prince on Oct 8, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

to each their own, i was in SF today, and it was quite nice

Like i said, it may just be wishful thinking, but im not sure they’d get rid of swisher to get Tron

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 9, 2011 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not exactly

Swisher is getting around $10 million, and on the market, probably will make about the same. Beltran is got $18 million, and on the market probably will get $15 or so.

That said, for an extra couple of million, a team could theoretically pick up Beltran over Swisher. Swisher is underrated over the course of his career, and Beltran is overrated sometimes, but that’s a pretty big overall upgrade for a few million dollars.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 10, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beltran overrated and Swisher underrated?

I don’t know…I think it might be the opposite. Swisher’s at best a 4 fWAR player, a nice commodity but will probably be overpaid based on name recognition. Meanwhile, Beltran’s had 7 seasons of 5+ fWAR, including two over 6 fWAR and two over 7 fWAR. Also, Beltran (4.7 fWAR) was worth more than Swisher (3.8 fWAR) in 2011 despite losing his positional advantage of playing CF. Beltran’s easily the better hitter as he hits for more power, gets on base more (and hits for a higher avg) and strikes out less, yet the two are probably going to be a lot closer salarywise than you think (I could see them getting around 2-3 million apart just because of the age difference and Beltran’s knees, making Beltran an enormous bargain compared to Swisher).

Projecting forward, the injury concerns with Beltran are certainly warranted but it’s not like Swisher is that young and he’s had his own injury issues he’s dealt with. Again, Swisher’s a nice player but I think Beltran is routinely more underrated, while Swisher is a bit overrated by comparison.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.

by Steve Schreiber on Oct 10, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beltran, when I think of him, I think of

that crazy last year in KC/Houston and those playoffs, and his two monster years with us in 2006 and 2008. He averaged 5.3 WAR during those ten years. Since then (and, obviously, he’s been recovering from injury, and hasn’t had as much time to perform), he’s averaged 2.8 WAR. Going forward, he still has those injury concerns, yeah, and is a right fielder now (and hasn’t been Beltranian in his fielding since 2009, in CF or RF). I say he’s overrated in that, when I think Beltran, I’ll always think the 1999-2009 Beltran, not the 2009-present Beltran; the 5.3 WAR player, not the 2.8 WAR player.

Swisher, he’s averaged 3.2 over his career, and basically between 3.0 and 4.0 excluding 2008. I don’t think he’s necessarily the better player even compared to Beltran right now, but I never realize how good he’s actually been. Being on the Yankees, surrounded by everyone else, he’s been overshadowed and masked for so long. As a comparison, look at Alexei Ramirez. He’s been a little bit better than Swisher has (3.2 WAR over the last four years with higher peaks, as opposed to Swisher and his 3.1 WAR over that same period of time), but since the White Sox basically have him, and no one else, Ramirez looks better. Swisher has been more or less the same thing over that period of time (of course, age and positional differences and everything), but I know I don’t think of him as a borderline All-Star, elite player.

That’s what I meant by that.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 10, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would the Giants trade for Wright though?

They have Sandoval at 3B and Belt at 1B.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 8, 2011 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wright did halt his regression

look at the after injury stats

Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all

by Rickfansince76 on Oct 7, 2011 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Not really

.240/.328/.442 in April (27 games)
.190/.358/.310 in May (12 games)
OUT IN JUNE
.455/.457/.659 in July (10 games)
.247/.345/.423 in August (26 games)
.216/.310/.363 in September (27 games)

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 7, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yankee Stadium gave him his .374 OBP?

Or his 122 wRC+?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 8, 2011 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

If we can dump Bay? Sure.

Not to play over Duda though.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 8, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're not dumping Bay.

I doubt even the Angels would make that trade

I believe in Dillon Gee!
Logic Your Sense Makes None.

by JoeBighead on Oct 8, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, his power numbers are inflated

but he still gets on base.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 9, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

You missed my point

Swisher hit 35 homers with the A’s in 2006 and 20+ in 2005 and 2007, and their park is pitcher-friendly. He definitely had above average power before he joined the Yankees and sometimes park adjustments can be taken too far. Stadiums don’t hit home runs, players do. You will hit a cheap one occasionally at places like YS but the issue is often overstated.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 9, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

It was hard to gather what you meant.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 9, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great piece.

Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "

by SuperSantana on Oct 7, 2011 7:54 PM EDT reply actions  

What do you mean by this statement:

“the result of a moneyball emphasis on hitting discipline”

by SovereignRonnie on Oct 7, 2011 9:17 PM EDT reply actions  

I think he means an OBP-driven approach to offense

although that doesn’t really have anything to do with moneyball per se, except in the historic sense.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 7, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thoughts...

On Reyes: 5 years, $100MM is the absolute most I’d go on him. If it really came down to it, I’d give him more money over an extra year.

I highly doubt that the Giants would make Matt Cain available, and if they did, I’d have to think twice about making the deal, as he is a free agent after 2012, and we need long term pitching help.

Swisher would be a poor signing, in my opinion, I think we essentially have a younger, cheaper, and comparable option in Lucas Duda.

by Ambient on Oct 7, 2011 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, sounds about right to me.

If I had to take a guess right now, I’d say the Mets will offer Reyes something reasonable, but he’ll ultimately take a bigger offer somewhere else. I hope he sticks around, but the team would be better off in the long term by letting him walk rather than massively overpaying.

I agree that the Giants aren’t looking to trade Cain, and if they were, I don’t think they’d be looking for a corner infield with Huff, Belt, and Sandoval already in the mix.

Swisher does play better defense than Duda, but yeah, it wouldn’t be an upgrade worth paying that much for (and Duda may end up hitting enough to erase that difference, anyway.

by EricAColucci on Oct 7, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't look at Lucas Duda as a cheaper Nick Swisher

You’re really selling the kid short, he has some huge power and if he works on his defense in the Spring (just so that it’s passable at least), he could seriously become a star.

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 7, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Swisher seems like a cool guy to hang out with

But it gets old when he strike outs with the game on the line and smiles and laughs on the way to the dugout. I want no part of him on the Mets. If Duda can improve on defense we have a cost control corner OF’er for years to come

by TheKid08 on Oct 8, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, I think merely calling him a "cost control" outfielder

is very far short of his potential, but we will see. Even if it doesn’t pan out, I’d sure as shit want him around over anybody that’s known for doing nothing…but doing it in pinstripes.

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 8, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are selling Swisher short

He’s just under 4 WAR per full season type of player. If Duda can have consistent 4 WAR seasons over the next six years, we should all be very happy.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 9, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

All I'm saying is

there is no point in pursuing Nick Swishers when we already have Major League players with higher upside.

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 9, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's no point in pursuing Nick Swisher

Because Yankees will probably pick up his option and because we could spend our limited resources more prudently even if he hit the FA market. I disagree about Duda having a higher ceiling than Swisher, 5+ WAR players with defensive ability as limited as Duda’s are extremely rare.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 9, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Swisher was never a 5 WAR player - his best season was 4.1 in 2010

So saying Duda has to be worth 5 WAR to be better than Swisher is a little misleading. He really just has to be worth around 3.5 or better

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 9, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plus, I wouldn't be so quick to say Duda's defensive abilities are limited yet

He’s really a first basemen playing in the most unusual right field in the league. Give it time, his defense will improve and will complement his tremendous power nicely.

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 9, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

We are talking about ceilings

If Swisher’s ceiling is 4.1 WAR (he could still do better), and you think Duda’s ceiling is higher than his, Duda needs to score better than 4ish WAR in his best season.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 9, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Swisher is 30

I doubt he’s going to put up a career best year now. His ceiling is basically 4 WAR. So again, Duda just has to be around 3.5 to be comparable to Swisher if we assume that Swisher won’t ever decline (which he will eventually).

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 9, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again

I’m not talking about who will be more productive next year or over the next 5 years or whatever. I’m talking about the fact that Swisher has been a near 4 WAR player throughout his prime and that we should all be happy if Duda can be a near 4 WAR player in his prime.

by Philip Larkin on Oct 9, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yanks are not exactly thrilled with the disappearing act he again pulled in the playoffs.Don't see why they

would sign him over Beltran. If Beltran could put up some #’s there he could be looking at HOF down the road.

by Putnan Prince on Oct 10, 2011 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Beltran put up numbers everywhere

if he needs to play with the Yankees to make the hall, the hall doesn’t deserve him.

Kicking knowledge in the face.

by BlackOps on Oct 10, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anything to do with the post season or world series rings

Is vastly overstated and should not be taken too seriously into account in HoF voting.

by Ambient on Oct 10, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

In an ideal world, but we know we're not living in one

In a world with 24 hour MLB Network, and fantasy baseball and the internet, I don’t think that’s too applicable anymore, but I think it had an impact once upon a time not too long ago. Look st Bert Blyleven: If he had played for the Yankees, or Red Sox, or Dodgers, or some “nationally recognized” team, you think there would’ve been so much heming and hawing about inducting him into the Hall of Fame if he had the exact same numbers?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 10, 2011 7:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It makes as much sense as people considering

Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte’s Hall of Fame chances, when guys like Ted Simmons and Kevin Brown disappeared from the ballot almost instantly.

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 10, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry yankee fans...

But Posada and Pettitte were great players, but neither player belongs in the hall.

by Ambient on Oct 10, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't understand how anyone could discuss Jorge Posada and the HoF in the same sentence

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "

– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf

by Terry_is_God on Oct 13, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The NY Post compared his offense to Mike Piazza

in order to HELP his chances…um what?

2012 National League Wild Card Champion New York Mets

by piazza62 on Oct 13, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

All I can really say is

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=893&playerid2=841&playerid3=&position=C&page=8&type=full

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 13, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

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