SB Nation New York Editor's Pick
What Is Jose Reyes Worth?
(Bumped from FanPosts. --Eric)
---
Recently, I've been reading a lot of AAOP's and they are all excellent. I appreciate everyone's hard work and creative thoughts. One thing that seems to be dividing us as Mets fans is the question of re-signing Jose Reyes. Most of us are huge fans, but some of the numbers have us worried that the Mets might be walking into a trap contract like Vernon Wells' or Ryan Howard's.
I have gone back and forth on this in single conversations. I wrote a comment in one of the AAOP discussions along these lines, but people seem to have either missed my point or I didn't make a good enough one.
So, I decided to take a look at all the research out there and put together some thoughts on what Jose is worth.
*I'm going to avoid any merchandising or ticket-sale arguments and take a quantitative look based on wins and dollars. By no means does this mean that there aren't emotional or other reasons to either re-sign or to let him walk -- I just wanted to review and present other people's research as it relates to the question. You can make your own conclusions.
1. Value
Anyways, given that you're in agreement that wins are the correct way to measure player value, and that WAR measures this to a sufficient degree, then you should simply assign a dollar value to WAR and that is what a player is worth. For example, a replacement player (0 WAR) by definition adds no wins and therefore he must be worth $0 dollars. This is an oversimplification -- a model -- of value and not the real value of a given player. For example, an elite sign-stealing ability is not WAR-measurable, however, it does have value.
This said, I believe that most of a player's value is tied to his individual contributions either offensively or defensively, and that wins are the correct scale, or "currency." The rest of this fanpost will deal with Jose Reyes the individual player as if he were a commodity or a factory that generates wins, as measured by WAR.
If you are not inclined to gauge value in this manner, then I advise you to stop reading because you will probably be very bored.
2. Projections
Anyways, if we were to know Jose Reyes' 10-year future WAR production, then his value would be easy to determine. However, we can't, instead we have projections, otherwise known as "educated guesses."
2.1. The Aging Curve
Many of the projection curves you see for evaluating contracts are based on an aging curve. It's pretty clear that players peak in value in the mid-20's or so, and decline and are out of baseball in their mid to late 30's. The most convincing argument quantifying aging, I believe is Tom Tango's. The methodology is clear and consistent, and the results make sense, although selection bias will always be a problem in aging studies. You can see his results (which use wOBA) here. As Tom writes, "To convert wOBA for a hitter into wins: (wOBA - .338) / 1.15 * 700 / 10.5." This will give you wins above average for offense.
As you see in Figure (1), which I made from the last link, this curve represents the WAR differential in groups of identically aged players who played in back-to-back years (the delta method). This implies that most hitters peak around 25 or 26, with a slow decline until about 32, whereupon the decline starts to accelerate.
Figure 1: Aging Curve for Batters |
Using this data, we can roughly project Jose Reyes the average player.
| Age | Year | War | $M/WAR | Value | Aging Factor |
| 28 | 0 | 6.00 | $4.40 | $26.40 | -0.35 |
| 29 | 1 | 5.65 | $4.40 | $24.86 | -0.35 |
| 30 | 2 | 5.24 | $4.40 | $23.06 | -0.41 |
| 31 | 3 | 4.72 | $4.40 | $20.77 | -0.52 |
| 32 | 4 | 4.26 | $4.40 | $18.74 | -0.46 |
| 33 | 5 | 3.56 | $4.40 | $15.66 | -0.70 |
| 34 | 6 | 2.98 | $4.40 | $13.11 | -0.58 |
| 35 | 7 | 2.40 | $4.40 | $10.56 | -0.58 |
| 6 years: | $116.20 | ||||
| 7 years: | $126.76 | ||||
| Table 1: Jose Reyes Projection 1, no inflation | |||||
Suffice it to say, it looks like the average player roughly loses half a win through his early 30's. At this rate, Jose Reyes at a $116M/6 year contract is about what he should make based on a 6 WAR peak. Of course, we could argue that it's not quite right to use the same dollar per war figure. If we add in a 5 percent inflation rate, we get $135M/6. It is also possible that 6 WAR is not his true talent level, and that since 6 fWAR is really 5 true WAR, we should only pay $104M/6. I've posted a Jose Reyes value calculator here (apologies for the wait).
Of course all of that was silly, since it looks only at offensive numbers. I'm treating his defense and base-running as staying the same while his batting ability changes over time! Which is clearly not the case. So let's reject this model out of hand.
2.2. Great Players
Tom Tango (who it's clear I like a lot), in this post claims that great players age differently than the average player. He defines great players as "over the preceding 4 seasons had at least 1500 PA, with a WAR/700PA rate of 4+ wins" and "in the preceding season had at least 500 PA, with a WAR/700PA rate of 4+ wins." Jose Reyes qualifies as great coming off his age 28 season with 586 PA this year and 5.28 WAR/700PA over the last four.
Tango's data is customized to Jose Reyes and summarized in Table (2).
| Age | Year | War | $M/WAR | Value | Aging Factor |
| 28 | 0 | 6.00 | $4.40 | $26.40 | |
| 29 | 1 | 5.10 | $4.53 | $23.11 | -0.90 |
| 30 | 2 | 4.40 | $4.67 | $20.54 | -0.70 |
| 31 | 3 | 4.20 | $4.81 | $20.19 | -0.20 |
| 32 | 4 | 3.70 | $4.95 | $18.32 | -0.50 |
| 33 | 5 | 3.90 | $5.10 | $19.89 | 0.20 |
| 34 | 6 | 2.90 | $5.25 | $15.24 | -1.00 |
| 35 | 7 | 2.30 | $5.41 | $12.45 | -0.60 |
| 6 years: | $117.30 | ||||
| 7 years: | $129.74 | ||||
| Table 2: Jose Reyes as Great Player, inflation 3%, cost per win $4.4M in 2011 | |||||
I've added a 3% inflation rate, and Tom Tango's numbers for great players. This looks actually a lot similar, and again justifies a roughly $120M/6 year or $130M/7 year contract for Jose Reyes.
2.3 Speedsters
Tango recently as of last year added some results for good speedsters. I'm using his numbers somewhat loosely here, I've added an age 29 season at 5.1 WAR, as I can't seem to find the full results of that study, and assumed the same WAR differential as for great players in that age season. Otherwise, the numbers come from an analysis of Carl Crawford, who is also part of the "good speedster" group, who was a year older going into his next contract.
| Age | Year | War | $M/WAR | Value | Aging Factor |
| 28 | 0 | 6.00 | $4.40 | $26.40 | |
| 29 | 1 | 5.10 | $4.53 | $26.40 | -0.90 |
| 30 | 2 | 4.60 | $4.67 | $21.47 | -0.50 |
| 31 | 3 | 4.30 | $4.81 | $20.67 | -0.30 |
| 32 | 4 | 4.30 | $4.95 | $21.29 | 0.00 |
| 33 | 5 | 3.60 | $5.10 | $18.36 | -0.70 |
| 34 | 6 | 2.50 | $5.25 | $13.13 | -1.10 |
| 35 | 7 | 2.00 | $5.41 | $10.82 | -0.50 |
| 6 years: | $118.05 | ||||
| 7 years: | $128.88 | ||||
| Table 3: Jose Reyes as Speedster, inflation 3%, cost per win $4.4M in 2011 | |||||
These numbers look a little better relative to the great hitters as a group. I think a common misconception is that speed-reliant players age poorly. However, if you think about this, this doesn't make that much sense, since speed reliant players cannot use speed alone to create value, they have to get on base. Therefore, it makes sense that a good speedster in baseball is a good hitter primarily, who can run fast. Since hitting (the ability to make contact) doesn't appear to be a purely physical skill, it reasons that speedsters should remain useful players even after their speed diminishes. Compare this to (low average) power hitters remaining useful after the power diminishes -- once the low contact rate is no longer offset by total bases, the power hitter becomes marginal very quickly (right Jason Bay? Hi Adam Dunn!).
2.3 Nearest Neighbor
Finally, I wanted to do a nearest neighbor comparison. Jimmy Rollins is the closest comp, as given by Baseball Reference. I don't think Rollins was ever as good as Jose Reyes, but he's similar in handedness, position and speed. Furcal has more data, but that's a pretty bad comp given that Furcal is physically so much smaller than Jose. Jose is fairly unique at his size and speed. Anyways, Rollins is only through his age 32 season, but I've used the standard .5 win deduction for each year after his last.
| Age | Year | War | $M/WAR | Value | Aging Factor |
| 28 | 0 | 6.00 | $4.40 | $26.40 | |
| 29 | 1 | 5.60 | $4.53 | $25.38 | fWAR 2008-2011 |
| 30 | 2 | 3.00 | $4.67 | $14.00 | |
| 31 | 3 | 2.50 | $4.81 | $12.02 | |
| 32 | 4 | 3.80 | $4.95 | $18.82 | |
| 33 | 5 | 3.30 | $5.10 | $16.83 | -0.50 |
| 34 | 6 | 2.80 | $5.25 | $14.71 | -0.50 |
| 35 | 7 | 2.30 | $5.41 | $12.45 | -0.50 |
| 6 years: | $101.76 | ||||
| 7 years: | $114.21 | ||||
| Table 4: Jose Reyes as Jimmy Rollins, inflation 3%, cost per win $4.4M in 2011 | |||||
If Jose's career closely tracks Rollins', then $102M/6 would be the maximum you'd want to go.
3. Conclusions
Clearly there are justifiable reasons why people toss out the $100M+ over 6 estimates regarding Jose Reyes, and why Carl Crawford got a $142/7 contract from a "saber-metrically" inclined franchise. I don't think it's clear at all that Jose Reyes is worth X amount, but it is interesting to see what kind of contracts result at a given dollar per WAR figure, aging pattern and inflation rate. There are some other aging curves here at Baseball Analysts with which to use the Reyes Calculator, including curves for high-walk vs low-walk players, big vs small, high-strikeout vs low, good defenders vs bad-defenders and more. I wish you had the interest in letting me bore you enough to post more Reyes tables, but if you're interested you can do it yourself.
*Careful with those last aging curves, though -- they might not say what you think they say -- they show the relative increase and decline starting from 0 WAR, so that peak at 1.5WAR does not mean that on average players peak at 1.5WAR. It means that you get a total average increase of about 1.5 WAR between the age of 19 and 26 or so, and then it declines. For example, if you start at 4 WAR as a 20 year old, you'll be at 5.5 WAR on average as a 26 year old.
You'll notice from these last graphs, as Tango noticed, that it appears speedy, good defensive, low-walk guys are inclined to peak early, but age rather gracefully compared to, say the Adam Dunn's of the world.
Given all the above, I can understand a $100M-120M/6 contract range. Playing with the calculator and looking at aging curves makes me feel that $100M+ over 6 years is not awful or crazy -- it is not a Vernon Wells or Ryan Howard deal.
The main assumption is that Jose will not succumb to an injury at some point in his contract that will essentially end his career. If the risk of that is higher for Jose than other players in the studies above, then clearly, that should be modeled. The risk there is difficult to determine and I guess will have to be a topic for another time, however.
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
85 comments
|
23 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Excellent, excellent analysis
Potential injury seems to be the wild card.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 3, 2011 10:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
agreed
I think that if Jose could be relied upon to gradually decline over 6-7 years, the Mets would sign up for that in a heartbeat even with the current financial uncertainty. The clear risk is having either a catastrophic, career altering injury, or more of what we saw this year. This would make 20+ mil per season debilitating. I think this goes without saying, but I said it anyway.
Also, great work on the OP.
Am I doing this right?
by brooklynberger on Nov 4, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
he must be referring to him pussing out on the last day to win the batting title
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
I mean with regards to missing significant periods of time.
Not a big deal on a .500 team when he is in his prime. If the team is in the thick of it, I would hate to lose a $20+mm player for 3 weeks in September. Also, as he ages, he will not recover as quickly from said injuries.
Am I doing this right?
by brooklynberger on Nov 4, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This year, yes.
As his skills decline, see above, playing 125 games isnt going to yield a 6 WAR. Please dont get me wrong, I had a tough time sleeping last night imagining Jose on a different team, just wanted to throw out the obvious.
Am I doing this right?
by brooklynberger on Nov 4, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but what Gina was remarking on
was you saying “more of what we saw this year”. Part of what we saw this year was a 6 WAR season. So yes, in five years he won’t be able to put up 6 WAR while missing so many games, but it’s not out of the question he puts up similar numbers the next three even if he misses some time.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
speculation ≠ "the obvious"
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
How?
It’s impossible to predict injury.
Regular regression because of declining physical ability the comes with age, that’s projectable more or less. Projecting injuries (which includes what they are, how long they keep the player out, and how he adapts after he comes back) seems pretty impossible. If a guy has a history, you have the added ability of being able to make an educated guess, but even then, it doesn’t mean much.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 4, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Unbelievable.
Thank you for all of your hard work in putting this together, it was easy to read and very informative.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
similar idea
I had a similar idea, only you actually did a ton of work and made the point much better. Well done. I only hope Mr. Alderson is looking at the same data.
Excellent analysis.
You’re awesome
Rey-sign Rey-ass
Logic Your Sense Makes None.
Your numbers for Jose's worth are spot on.Now if you add in his merchandising capability and what his signing
would mean to show the fans that the FO is serious about putting a quality package together to sell tickets and compete.Signing Reyes-C’MON MAN
Very good post
Thanks for doing this.
It does show that the numbers that have been tossed around, i.e. 5-6 years between 90 and 120 million $ don´t seem unreasonable at all.
Reyes will get 100+ million $ guaranteed from someone for sure – even with the injury risks and with the Yankees and Red Sox probably not in play at all.
I do hope and believe that the Mets will at least offer something like 5-years, 100 million $ guaranteed (5x 19 million and 5 million $ buyout or two club / vesting options at 21 million $ each instead to make it 7-years, 137 million, plus possibly give Reyes a CC Sabathia type opt-out after 3 years if he doesn´t like the direction of the Mets).
Of course, some other team like Detroit, Washington, San Francisco, LA Angels, etc. may swoop in with an offer of 6-years, 126 million guaranteed or so – which doesn´t seem all that unreasonable and figures to tempt Reyes into leaving.
Which´ll be a shame – just as it was losing Darryl Strawberry after the 1990 season or trading Tom Seaver and David Cone. Yet, it won´t be the end of the world either. Just the official end to the Beltran / Reyes Mets. And probably lower 2012 expectations to the point of a last place finish.
Great work.
Very well written and easy to understand. Happy to have it.
Darrelle Revis once won a game of Connect Four in three moves.
Very concise
and simple enough to read – even for the ‘mathematically challenged’ crowd, such as myself.
Found this site years ago as a starting point to educate myself on sabermetrics. Thing is, after trying to decipher explanations from a few other sites, always found myself back here as the explanations are simple enough to wrap my brain around.
Here’s hoping the Mets highest offer is competitive enough to at least have Jose seriously consider resigning here.
by MetsFan4Decades on Nov 4, 2011 11:54 AM EDT reply actions
Basically what I got from the aging curves is that Reyes is going to sign a huge contract somewhere else
win multiple batting titles and generally be awesome and ultimately his time with the mets will become a footnote and I will drown in my cries.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
by Gina on Nov 4, 2011 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post
Well written, concise and clear on your method and conclusion. Kudos.
The marketing and PR positives, beyond Jose WAR value, might mitigate the injury risk that you note is missing from the modeling. Thus a 6-year 100M contract would probably be a win-win situation for team and player. I hope.
.
“A Mets official has told Joel Sherman of the New York Post that he thinks the team has “no shot” to re-sign Jose Reyes.
“My instinct is no shot,” the official said. “I think if [GM] Sandy [Alderson] asked for it, ownership would follow his recommendations. But where the money is going to go it is not going to be the best way to spend the money, not on one player and not one player with this hamstring thing.” Another Mets official told Sherman that he thinks Reyes “will be blown away by someone else.” It’s probably a fair assumption, and with the Mets looking to trim payroll by $30 million, the reality is that Reyes would likely have to take a discount to stick around."
"Intelligence is not a genetic predisposition. Think stupid!!"
by Wright of passage on Nov 4, 2011 12:03 PM EDT reply actions
There's a big difference though
concerning taking a discount – between a 60 MIL offer and a 100+ mil offer.
I can’t help but think the number of years will be the sticking point for the Mets.
by MetsFan4Decades on Nov 4, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It may be because I wasn't around for most of the season but it's really just now hitting me
that there’s probably greater than a 50% chance Reyes will not be a met in 2012. And it’s just making me physically emotionally sick. And I hope all the fans that called him lazy and criticized him are happy when he’s dancing around a world series trophy for another team.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
by Gina on Nov 4, 2011 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And also I don't understand, if we knew the money was this much of a mess, and there's no reason they shouldn't have why we didn't trade him in season
just to save face so we can say we tried when he walks?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
The value of the compensatory picks might
have played a part in viewing the alternatives to a trade as being more palatable. Then again what are the odds we get any introspective information divulged from anyone who actually offered anything to us to establish whether a commensurate trade was being offered in the first place?
"Intelligence is not a genetic predisposition. Think stupid!!"
by Wright of passage on Nov 4, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a good point.
Maybe there were offers made, but when balanced against compensation, and the possibility of re-signing Jose, the FO decided not to act. This FO, unlike previous, hasn’t leaked info like a sieve.
by SoCal Metfan on Nov 4, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
the compensation is kind of meh for a player like Jose
compensation plays a factor when trading guys like Beltran or older guys who aren’t in their primes. Draft picks for someone you were going to lose anyway and draft picks for a superstar you don’t want to lose but likely will due to financial constraints are different things.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Could not agree more.
The latter is like some consolation prize. ‘Look we lost, but oh, we got something back’.
by MetsFan4Decades on Nov 4, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, they're not primary motivators
but they’re also not nothing. They need to be weighed as part of the value against a trade package that is offered.
Noone is saying that comp picks would make up for losing Jose, just that it is a factor, and that also, most importantly, losing Reyes isn’t a foregone conclusion.
Draft picks are always crapshoots
At least, if established Minor/Major Leaguers are involved in a trade proposal, you know what you’re getting.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 4, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I don't think it's that much an assured thing that he walks.
The Mets, for all their financial woes, aren’t the only team that isn’t making cash hand over fist. Numerous teams have already basically said they’re not in the bidding, and many people have pointed out that the actual number of teams that might sign Jose is actually pretty small. Granted it only takes one team to be crazy and open up the pocketbook, but the Mets aren’t broke, and Sandy isn’t dumb.
Maybe some other team signs him, but I don’t think anyone knows for sure, and I am fine with the FO’s plan of attack on this. I mean, sure I"d have rather they signed him to a team-friendly extension prior to the season, but that would require mutual desire to avoid the FA market, and we really don’t know that existed.
by SoCal Metfan on Nov 4, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Joel Sherman thinks otherwise
"Intelligence is not a genetic predisposition. Think stupid!!"
by Wright of passage on Nov 4, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is his perogative
I can imagine Milwaukee being a possible suitor, but they’re not quite awash with cash either.
The Braves are run on a pretty tight budget themselves, and they’re looking at a lot of arb raises for Hanson, Jurjens, Medlen, Prado and O’Faherty. And arb raises for Heyward and I think Kimbrel, Beachy and Minor the following year.
The Fish? I mean, I suppose, but the Marlins beat writer said he thinks it’s doubtful. They’ve never been players on the FA market before, seems an odd time to start now, when they’re as down in the win-cycle as they’ve ever been.
The Phils already have the albatross Howard contract, I imagine they’ll go to the lower end on the FA market.
Which is not to say it’s impossible for any of those teams to be bidders, it does only take one, but there are lots to reasons to believe that it’s not a foregone conclusion that someone elses offer will blow the Mets out of the water.
Mets Official
I’d like to know who these Mets Officials are that told Sherman there’s ‘no shot’ Reyes comes back to the Mets. Sherman has been painting this gloom and doom picture for a while now, which I’d imagine will all be context for his biggest piece of Mets bashing ever should Reyes go to another team. He’s setting up a piece for later that he is drooling to write.
it will be as much Mets bashing as it is Sherman gloating if he does go elsewhere
I bet he quotes himself from several different articles (like this one) in such a hypothetical piece
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Not political
but I’m going back and forth with my father regarding the funding of Occupy Wall Street, which he is convinced is being fully payrolled by the usual “Progressive-Socialist-Communist-Radical” sources (according to a Fox News report that cites anonymous individuals, without citations), and in all of my research debating with him, I’ve come across a few different blogs, websites, and articles that I’ve found actually doing that- making up a claim without backing it up factually, and then later quoting that claim as a fact.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 4, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That's extremely common with political blogs.
Regardless of how ridiculous the claim is.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 4, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I find it both pathetic and comical that he cites claims from random blogs and youtube videos
as if they were Popular Mechanics (the most trustworthy periodical out there, in my opinion).
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 5, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
"I’d like to know who these Mets Officials are…"
I’m thinking they’re among the fifteen guys whose firing was announced this week.
so he is the authority?
that guy is speculating just as much as any of us, or any of these guys – here – who all say the team they follow won’t be interested in Jose.
I honestly think the Mets want Jose and Jose wants the Mets, but both know that some team might come out of left field with Carl Crawford money, and the Mets will not match it. But, unless there is some team that wants to make a statement signing (think Beltran + Pedro for Mets in 05, Nationals trying to copy that with Werth last year), and is willing to overpay for Reyes, that won’t happen. It just feels like the difference in money between the Mets offer and a competitor would have to be significant for him to be willing to leave everything.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Because he's not going anywhere!
I just can’t see him leaving unless someone offers him Crawford money. The Mets will offer him a very competitive deal in the end. I’m not even concerned right now that he won’t be back because it just makes no sense for the Mets to allow him to walk.
it makes no sense for the mets to allow him to walk
which is why it makes perfect metsense
think about it.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
We're in the Alderson Era now
There just may be hope
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Alderson already said he may not use all of the money
so he has flexibility during the season. I don’t have a good feeling about Reyes being back next year, but we’ll see.
$30MM is what's purportedly the targeted savings
that the club is looking to trim the payroll by according to Olney:
“Buster Olney of ESPN.com reports that “there is sentiment within the Mets’ organization that the timing isn’t right to build around Jose Reyes.”
Olney mentions Reyes’ leg injuries and the fact that the Mets are probably at least a couple years away from contending as reasons why a long-term deal might not make sense. Also a factor is that the Mets are looking to trim payroll by $30 million, so it’s not the optimal time for them to make any long-term commitments. Reyes is likely looking for a Carl Crawford-type deal (seven years, $142 million) this winter."
"Intelligence is not a genetic predisposition. Think stupid!!"
by Wright of passage on Nov 6, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
We went from non contender in 2004 to the best team in baseball in two years
Things change very quickly. And Buster Olney is a tool, no one is giving Reyes 7 years, 142 million.
Yeah, the team is saving +/- $30 million dollars by dropping the payroll down
from +/- $140 million, where it is now, to +/- $110 million, what it’s supposed to be in 2012. That +/- $110 million figure has within it the flexibility to sign Reyes, plus a little more, as Evan alluded to.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 6, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
PAY THE MAN!!!
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
A well written and informative piece
But, if the conclusions based on your charts is that a 100-120/6 contract would make sense for Jose, why have the rumors from the FO been that they are looking at 70/4 with a fifth year vest as an offer to Jose? Don’t forget that this FO has a reputation for being very analytic in its moves.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Nov 4, 2011 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
Curious, where did you read that 70/4 number?
I haven’t seen that anywhere. (not that I’ve exhaustively looked)
by SoCal Metfan on Nov 4, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It was mentioned by Joel Sherman in the article
linked above by WOP
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Nov 4, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you talking about the 4 years at 15-17 annually?
I read that as Sherman’s interpretationof what the “right price” would be, not a number floated by the FO. shrug
Cool
I read it as something Sherman had heard.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Nov 4, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
IMO, I don't believe Sherman hears much of anything
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Just the voices in his head.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Nov 4, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that the rumors might be intentional misinformation
It is widely believed that Jose will re-sign if the Mets match the best offer. If this is true, then it makes sense for the Mets to stay out of the bidding. Floating an artificially low number helps to accomplish this. Now the Mets just need to wait for one team to come up with the best bid, and then match it.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
by Russ on Nov 4, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sounds good.
Russ has a plan and his plan…I like his plan.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Nov 4, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
*disiniformation
I meant that this might be disinformation.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
No, my conclusion is that it's not crazy
and that someone will give it to him. There are 4 non mutually exclusive scenarios for having a radically differing evaluation which I think are reasonable (in order of what I think is possible)
1) Their projections are completely different, perhaps based on comparables, or on middle infielders or dominican players, etc or their model is different (possibly focusing more on risk/variance). For example, Jose’s average WAR next year may be 5.1, but the 90th percentile might only be at 2.00. They may simply be more risk averse or they may see the market as overvalued and value wins far less than that 4.4M figure.
2) They’ve modeled the injury risks and hazard and having access to better data on Jose’s health, have found it to be very significant (as much as $30M and 2 years different).
3) They agree with one or more of the above projections but are signalling the market that Jose is “defective,” hoping to scare off other players, and reduce his overall cost.
4) Non-baseball reasons for lower valuation (he only plays well when money is on the line, he’s a secret alcoholic, he likes Justin Bieber’s music, etc.)
I trust this FO and they’ll do the right thing. But if Jose signs for less than 90 over 5 someplace else, then I think I’ll be pretty ticked at least for a couple months.
by robotoverlord on Nov 4, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Fangraphs article suggesting Reyes to Cards to "replace" Pujols
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/an-alternative-to-pujols-in-st-louis/#more-66637
I hate even reading about this in print
This is the main reason I want the Cards to re-sign Pu
Don’t want them with cash and a burning desire to spend it.
This is terrific
Excellent job. I’d hate to have to be the one making these decisions, though…
Mets, Devils, Jets, Knicks
Follow me on Twitter: @ZachandKovy917
Dickey be Praised!
Factoring in injury
Great analysis and triangulation of value. Of course injury risk is the key to factor in. I wonder whether anyone has done an analysis on previous injury and its likely effect on long term contract value. And if they have, there would probably be different conclusions for different types of past injuries (tommy john, rotator cuff, ACLs, hamstrings, concussions).
From my perspective, every player will have catastrophic injury risk – and maybe some past injuries can be predictive of that – but that risk may be more flukey than anything else. The real value reducing factor is previous injuries that have a high likelihood of recurring (limiting future performance) – and hamstrings for speed value guys would seem to carry this risk.
After playing in 97% of games from 2005-2008, Jose missed about 40% of games from 2009-2011 (with 2009 accounting for most of that outage). If you factor in a 10% or 20% loss of time use into the contract, the corresponding values may be a fair bit lower. Hopefully this will help to tamp down the market and the bidding war (although you only need one “crazy” to make a huge bid). Jose certainly has more intangible value to us than any other team – and as long as it’s close to the $18mm/yr range, let’s hope this deal gets done…
Wow.
This is good, very good.
Thorough, explanative, and very well thought it. Bravo.
AAARRRRRRRSSSSSHHHHHHHHAAAAAAVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNN!
Dream goal!
How'd you make the nice graphs?
My FanPosts, always fail in that regard, the graphs.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 4, 2011 7:55 PM EDT reply actions
The graph I made using Google spreadsheets, they're awesome
you can just cut and paste from excel, and create a chart, and publish it as an image. Fairly straightforward, but the charts are hard to customize.
The tables I cut from excel, I have a handy excel macro that makes html tables for me that I downloaded from somewhere.
by robotoverlord on Nov 4, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Google Spreadsheets, hmm
I’ll look into it, thanks.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 5, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
His worth is most represented by the disparity between him and his potential replacement (to the Mets).
Albert is not worth it, because although Ike isn’t in the same stratosphere, there are players with a similar skill set.
This is where Reyes is different, his set and impact when healthy is unique in all of Baseball IMO
This is why I think Reyes will be a Met next year
You don’t know what the market for him will be until it is set. The most recent examples I can think of that are similar players to Jose are Barry Larkin and Carl Crawford. Larkin played with one team his whole career, and Crawford tanked in the first year of a lucrative contract.
Mets, Jets, Islanders, Knicks.
GO RANGERS! Get Endy a ring!
great article
great work. heartly rec’d.
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengel
i cant spell a nosebleed
The Official Seinfeld Gif-Man of GGN!!!!!!!!
i'm a moderator for GGN. I will accept tribute.

by 































