The Default Position of McCovey Chronicles on Barry Bonds - McCovey Chronicles
"The default position of McCovey Chronicles is that you wouldn't understand. You weren't there when Bonds was doing amazing things. You weren't there when the Giants played their first game of 1993 in San Francisco instead of Tampa, and they had the best player in baseball -- a local kid with a family history that was completely intertwined with San Francisco Giants history."
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Eric Simon
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On Omar Minaya
“The default position of Bieser’s Balk is that you wouldn’t understand. You weren’t there when Minaya was doing amazing things. You weren’t there when he gave Alex Cora a vesting option. Or Ollie Perez 3/36. Or Jason Bay 4/66. Or Luis Castillo 4/24. And you literally wouldn’t understand what he was saying, because he was incoherent.”
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 16, 2011 4:44 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Eh, that's a cop-out
Not that they’re being fully 100% serious- and not that we’re all fully 100% serious either.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Maybe It's because I'm naturally contrarian
But I love Barry Bonds. Whenever somebody counters “But Barry Bonds used steroids,” I almost immediately counter with the fact that Willie Mays and every other player of his era used greenies, which means that they probably would have used steroids if they were available.
The baseball moral majority’s against steroids is absolutely obscene. Corking bats, manipulating the ball, stealing signs, and even amphetamines are somehow old-timey and “cute” but for some reason if you take steroids you’re immediately treated as if you are Hitler x100. Fuck you Bob Costas.
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 5:53 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
What a BADASS you are!!!!
Actually, none of that shit was cute, and none of it was as damaging as completely altering the style and substance of the game, and completely distorting the progression to the big leagues for a decade of players, some of whom actually had to choose between a life in the minors and steroid use. I guarantee you there are players who simply never got a chance because they didn’t use. And that ain’t true of spitballs.
The anti-anti-steroid argument is, in my wee opinion, 30 times more annoying than any chest-puffery Bob Costas and his ilk can come up with, because it has this smarmy know-it-all adolescent contrarian quality to it — it’s mostly obfuscation and hiding behind difficult to prove negatives, and it annoys the piss out of more fans than just me, I’m sure.
by tmu on Dec 16, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Did it really completely alter the style and substance of the play?
When you consider the rampant use of amphetamines and tons of other drugs that baseball turns a blind eye too because there’s no public outrage surrounding them? Steroids were just a convinent scape goat. There’s still tons of other drug use among players to get ahead that no one is paying attention to so even if steroids hadn’t come a long those same players who didn’t get a chance probably still wouldn’t have gotten a chance if they also abstained from amphetamine use (or any substance use)
And there’s also the fact that in that case it would make more sense than, rather than outright banning all PED’s, allow them under supervision of a doctor, then those players could make the choice to use them.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
You know how easily the "doctor supervision" amendment would be circumvented?
About as easily as the ADD and ADHD ones are now.
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and if they don't care about the ADD and ADHD ones
then why do they care about HGH? If anything HGH is worlds safer than misuse of stimulants.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
why is HGH use a wrong?
what made it a wrong? what basis are we deciding wrongs?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
You said that there should be a "doctor supervision" clause.
When I brought up the point that such a clause would be rampantly abused, you brushed it aside by saying that they do it with ADD and ADHD medications.
Wrong #1: Abusing the “doctor supervision” clause wrt ADD and ADHD medications
Wrong #2 Abusing the “doctor supervision” clause wrt HGH.
You justified Wrong #2 with Wrong #1.
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Oh in that case then I don't consider wrong number 2 a wrong because
the abuse of HGH has no where near the ramifications of the abuse of a stimulant. I would say in terms of adverse effect there no way comparable.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Alterations in the structure of the heart and liver damage aren't adverse enough?
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That's with anabolic steroids not HGH
it’s also an extreme/very rare example of a side effect, if you look up extreme tylenol side effects you’ll find the same things. In that case every type of medication should be banned.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
You're right, that was Steroids.
But with regard to Tylenol, stomach damage usually only happens with abuse or dehydration to my knowledge.
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Tylenol pretty much nukes the liver
that stuff is terrible.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
yeah this is why I rarely use tylenol
I’m pretty sure if you even slightly od you’re looking at major liver problems. I think the average dosage contains about 600 mgs of acetaminophen and 900+ can cause liver damage (depending on your size and other consumption). And not just like I’ll go see a doctor and be fine damage. Damage like you better figure it out fast and find a relative with a matching blood type.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
most of the extreme side effects of Steroids only come with extreme misuse
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
If you're asking whether or not steroids changing the style and substance of play
you clearly paid absolutely no attention to baseball prior to the introduction of steroids, OR you’re one of those people who loves to throw up little Posnanski-esque factors like “dilution of pitching” to explain why three people hit more than 65 home runs in a season who happened to have trademark pockmarked faces, bacne, and head growth. The fact is that STEROIDS HELP YOUR BAT SPEED. This is because they make you stronger. This is because of the “recovery time.” People seem to think that means you don’t feel as tired the day after lifting — something benign like that. No — muscle growth results when microtears in muscle fibers stimulate further muscle growth. Steroids — extremely powerful metabolic modulators — speed up that process, allowing much, much more rapid growth.
Your likening of amphetamines to steroids evinces a willful ignorance of how these different drugs work to improve performance, and likely exaggerates greatly the pervasiveness of amphetamine use, to the extent that in defense of steroid sucking goons, you’re happily sullying players from various other eras for cheating.
Your suggestion for “doctor supervision” as a cureall exaggerates the medical community’s understanding of the effects of altering the body’s hormonal profile in the short and long term.
by tmu on Dec 19, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, no
Amphetamines were more prevalent and used during the 1960s-1980s, than steroids were in the 1990s and early 2000s. Estimates pinpoint about 50-60% of the league regularly used greenies, based on testimony from the Pittsburgh Drug trials, Tony Gwynn, and Mike Schmidt. Steroids, no two people can agree on a percentage, Ken Caminitti said at least half, David Wells said 25% to 40%, and Jose Canseco claimed 80%. We can throw out Canseco because, if you look at the numbers, the stats don’t suggest that 80% of all baseball players used steroids with some regularity from the late ‘80s to early ’00s. So, the other range of 25%-50% seems more likely, and that’s less than the general estimation of Greenie use.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 19, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
And, in decrying what Gina was saying, you did the same thing
Greenies were performance enhancers. They were against the spirit of the rules of the game, if not against the rules of the game, by the word. You’re lessening the impact of other people’s cheating to harp on a secondary group of people who cheated.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 19, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
"Estimates"
Also, popping two Sudafed versus taking steroids to drastically increase muscle mass. There is a difference between steroids, on the one hand, and strong coffee, on the other. And oh, incidentally, the amphetamine use continued through the “steroid era.”
and this basically sums up the fact you clearly have no idea what you're
talking about when it comes to the medical impacts of amphetamines, or any hormonal influencing drug.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Um
I do, and we’re NOT talking about crystal meth, here. Really. “Hormonal influencing”?? They affect neurotransmitters — not the endocrine system. If they do, it’s a secondary effect. The steroids, on the other hand, were hardly the shit you squirt up your nose. Steroids are quite a cudgel. Studies have failed to demonstrate much of a performance enhancing effect to amphetamines.
I mean, this is so obviously a cultural thing among SABR-people. You take the entire “looking behind the numbers” approach and blow it up into a mandate to oppose any and all “conventional wisdom” in baseball.
Captain Sensitive to the bridge!
It’s not ALL sabermetricians, or whatever. But there’s definitely a segment that takes a contrarian impulse a bit too far. Steroids quite obviously helped players, and were quite obviously against the rules and/or illegal for a long period. And yeah, there’s a social norm that treats them differently from other supplements, exercise regimes, etc. Part of it is the illegality. Part of it is the risk. Part of it is the rules in place in a given sport. Part of it is the notion of fairness and unjust reward. Part of it is the side effects. People are taken to task for violating those norms, for reasons that go beyond “well, it’s up to Barry Bonds whether or not to risk his health.” There’s a compact — sometimes written down and sometimes not — that defines the boundaries of fair competition. He broke it and knew damn well he was breaking it, and didn’t care.
Eh, not really Captain Sensitive
but whatever I guess. But why aren’t the people who may have used amphetamines & other drugs demonized as much as Bonds & others of this age are? I’m sure those drugs had as much of an impact on the player’s performance & pose as much(if not a greater) medical risk as steroids.
Live ironic and whatnot.
Well
I doubt they had the same effect on performance, although perhaps the “focus” helped them . . . focus. In terms of the adverse effects, it depends on dose and duration and such, but I seriously, seriously doubt they were anywhere near as dangerous as steroids. In any event, both are now banned.
Why weren't greenies "demonized"?
Because there was no ESPN or other 24-hour sports channels and because back then media was more trusting and agreeable.
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Re: Estimates
Estimates are all we have regarding steroids, too. What makes the estimates of players and a fact-finding body more or less reliable and/or useful than the estimates of players and a fact-finding body? At the end of the day, looking at the numbers- which are all estimates- amphetamine use is/was more pervasive in baseball than steroids are/were.
Re: Eras
And? Pud Galvin and Babe Ruth supposedly had testosterone from animals injected into themselves in primitive versions of steroids. Does that extend the recognized ‘Steroid Era’ to the late 1800s and early 1900s?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 19, 2011 5:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No it doesn't what? Which are you addressing?
One set of estimates derived from the same exact sources isn’t as trustworthy as another set derived from the same sources, or that the ‘Steroid Era’ didn’t begin in the late 1800s?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 19, 2011 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
While I'm not really spoiling to have this fight again,
the whole point of the “dilution of pitching” argument is that it’s anything but a “little” factor in the competitive environment of the game. You’re pretty much handwaving away the rational, evidence-based arguments against the STERIODS RUINED TEH BASEBALL position here.
So the anti-steroids argument is not
rational just because we don’t have reams of data on who took how many when? No, I think it’s pretty actionable. This is one of those “in the absence of evidence to the contrary, you mayjump out of the way of that charging bull” moments, which is a cool song by Don Caballero. Sometimes the commonsense, popular opinion (which you deride with an impishly misspelled “teh”) is . . . well, rational.
Irrational claims about steroids' effects on baseball are irrational
Just to be clear, the “anti-steroids argument” we’re talking about here isn’t saying “people shouldn’t do steroids” — it’s saying players who we circumstantially suspect of having done steroids, or who did steroids when they were hardly against the official rules, should be shunned from baseball awards, etc. Rational arguments that steroids are very bad for people and shouldn’t be condoned are a different thing, and only the moralistic seem to confuse the two (not saying that you’re doing this, just to be clear, just that it’s common). Figuring out what caused ’90s baseball to be so power-happy is a totally different task from trying to work out how to disincentivize players from doing dangerous shit to their bodies in the future.
Like Gina’s also suggesting below, the competitive environment of baseball is a complicated multi-variable situation where it’s very hard, often impossible, to separate out single causal factors for things like why people hit more homers in a given decade. Only the steroid moralists claim to know the answer to that one for sure — the rest of us think there’s a lot of different stuff going on, from steroids to weightlifting regimes to pitching dilution to changes in the construction of the ball, and it’s pretty hard to disentangle one factor as the only thing to point to.
Oh, I wouldn't point to it as "the only thing."
But I think it’s safe to say it was a major factor in the power explosion of the ‘90s/early ’00s. I think we can safely say (1) players took steroids. (2) steroids make players stronger. (3) players who took steroids hit lots of home runs. Does that mean having a bunch of minor leaguers throwing significant innings with differently manufactured baseballs in tiny parks (a couple of them at higher elevation than ever before) to guys who took a 21st century approach to fitness but did NOT use steroids and were swinging for the fences like never before (breathe) didn’t have an effect? No, I think those all played into it. But Brady Anderson, people. And there’s lots of evidence that Bonds took PEDs, and that his numbers took off once he started . . . even though he was probably an easy hall-of-famer without them.
I think the illegality of steroids is part of the “moral” issue, over and above “everyone was corking bats.” Pretty sure they were illegal in the hands of the Cansecos of the world before baseball banned them. Illegal doesn’t equal immoral, but I’m not sure we need to take baseball to task for not superimposing it’s own punishments on top of the legal ramifications. (Of course, it was doing just that with recreational drugs.)
Where the moralizing gets a little odd, to me, is that Mark McGwire basically admitted using steroids DURING 1998 — the infamous “andro”, which was only “legal” based on a loophole. But most people chose to look the other way, possibly because they didn’t quite get the science, or thought it “wasn’t quite a steroid.” But to then turn around and pillory the guy as a “cheater” when we knew what he was doing strikes me as daft. (For the record, at the time, I did not like the direction baseball was taking, and sort of assumed the guys making a run at Maris were “juicing”, as it were.)
I think a lot of the difference in opinion depends on how obvious you think it is that steroids actually help
You clearly think it’s so obvious as not to need arguing that steroids enhance hitters’ power performance. Other people are more skeptical, because (just as with corked bats, actually) this hasn’t ever been solidly demonstrated. It’s not just saber-types who take the “counterintuitive” position that there’s reason to doubt that these supposed PEDs actually E anyone’s P, too: there are baseball insiders who think it too — remember Bobby Valentine, when asked whether he thought Bonds was doping, replied “Do they have steroids for his eyes?” because that’s where he thought Bonds’s superhuman ability lay, not in his biceps.
It's not just about hitting a ball farther
it’s about catching up to balls you otherwise couldn’t, which expands your coverage and changes how pitchers can approach you. That said, he clearly wasn’t completely a steroid creation — he was a great player when still thin. (I also remember some guy trying to attribute his power to his body armor.)
On a more general note, the HOF debate doesn’t really move me, because the Hall isn’t some sort of Arlington National Cemetery “sacred ground.” Nor do I think he has some sort of some sort of “moral right” to be there, however. It’s something baseball writers use to aggrandize their own societal role.
No I was asking if it altered the style and substance of play more than amphetamies
since you claimed none of them had the same effect. It’s more likely we just think none of them had the same effect because by the time the 90s came around we assumed the effect was normal. If Steroids had existed in baseball for 40 years, and then something else was introduced that had an effect people would be making the same claim. The difference is one was allowed decades to permeate and slowly alter our perception of the style and substance of play and one wasn’t.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
by Gina on Dec 19, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we assumed the affect of amphetamines was normal*
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Also my likening to them has more to do with the fact I don't see any issue with speeding up recovery time
or why speeding up recovery time is any worse than amphetamines? Also I have ADHD and take multiple amphetamines so I’m willing to wager I have a much much deeper understanding of the affects of amphetamines in performances than you seem to be assuming. And your last sentence applies to 1. Amphetamines just as strongly 2. every single prescription medication in use. There are no “drugs” that are widely prescribed today that the medical community has a deep understanding of in terms of how they effect hormonal profiles in the long or short term.
Basically you’re entire argument seems to be steroids are worse because you say they are and any disagreement can only be the source of ignorance or people wanting to seem cool, and handwaving away any actual countering factual evidence as trite, or willful ignorance, and not even attempting to provide any of your own instead choosing to argue in circles without actually saying anything.
Basically you seem to have an 1. extreme ignorance to the effects and workings of amphetamines . the complete lack of difference between steroids/HGH and the tons of other hormonal altering drugs prescriptions subscribed by the millions every day and 2. A hard fast refusal to accept any argument or fact that disagrees with your stance or even attempting to pretend to be arguing in good faith. If you just irrationally hate steroids then fine go for it, but then don’t try to claim that others who don’t are merely less interested in acknowledging the truth than you.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
by Gina on Dec 19, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One argument I don't understand at all is the
“well all these “legit” prescription medications and drugs are really bad too, so why do we care if people did steroids?" argument. Justifying one possibly detrimental drug that has some benefits because we talk many others in our everyday lives does not a sound argument make.
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This
And, to me, it’s not even an issue of study, possible health effects, and determining who has “the right” to decide what is legal and not, and so on. I’m very agnostic about that- I don’t necessarily really care. All that matters to me is, if it’s cheating, it’s cheating. Is it fair that someone can get a fake prescription to Aderal, while someone who pops a similar drug gets penalized? Not really, but the rules are the rules. I’m not so much interested in the ‘morality’ of rules as much as they are followed (in baseball).
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The argument was in direct response to the idea that steroids/HGH are somehow
extra bad because doctors don’t have long-term information on them. My point is that doctors don’t have long-term information on nearly any drug so that’s no real point against steroids/HGH. It wasn’t a justification of their use but pointing out a flaw in the argument that they’re somehow more dangerous.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I don't think it's a great argument to say
well, we don’t have any information on the long term effects of lots of things, e.g., 5-Hour Energy, etc., ERGO, we cannot postulate that steroids may be worse/ there’s no basis to treat them differently. There is sound scientific basis behind the suggestion that they may be worse based on their role as modulators of cellular proliferation, metabolism, inflammatory responses, etc. Again, sometimes, you have to make a decision based on incomplete information, e.g., massive of data on long-term effects. And we do have some data. And it’s not good. A lot of doctors shy away from the use of steroids even where they have acknowledged beneficial effects (e.g., treatment of autoimmune/ inflammatory conditions) simply because they are unpredictable and create serious health problems in the patients.
And your suggestion that I’m “ignorant” about the functions of these medications is dismissive ad hominem. You haven’t offered anything on the function of amphetamines. You’ve merely appealed to your own authority as someone with a prescription. If you’re trying to equate how they affect the body to how steroids affect the body, you can’t — they’re totally different.
A larger issue is that attacking amphetamines as dangerous doesn’t really get to the issue of how steroids altered the game, e.g., by allowing increased bat speed and power versus some more generalized effect on focus and stamina. It’s very, very clear how steroids help a player in specific areas. Not so with “greenies.” Could amphetamines give a player an “edge”? Of course. But they could not allow a player to close a whole in his swing or turn warning track power into upper deck power.
Is not an edge an edge?
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
He's got an edge.
Sure, it’s an edge. But I seriosuly doubt it could make you stronger, improve your bat speed and, hence, strength and zone coverage.
Doesn't matter, though
It’s an edge. That like saying that copying a few answers from the test paper of the kid sitting next to you is or isn’t as bad as having a cheat sheet and using it during the test, or getting the teacher’s answer key and memorizing it, or whatever other things students do.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Not all transgressions are equivalent, even if they are all transgressions in the abstract. Speeding is not murder, to take it to absurd extremes. Corking a bat once or twice is not systematic juicing. Is it bad? Yes. Should it be punished? Yes. Is the effect on the game the same? Absolutely not. I’m in no way saying amphetamines are safe, shouldn’t be banned, whatever. They definitely should be.
how did greenies not alter the style and substance of the game?
And if you’re going to make some sort of moral, good of society stand on things, I’m sure amphetamines have done much more harm to society as a whole than steroids.
this exactly
the only thing that separates steroids is that we know about them because the media going on some odd moral rampage about them.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Steroids has a far more serious impact on the game and the players than stealing signs.
The primary argument against steroids is that it creates an uneven playing ground where if you don’t do it, you’re hurting yourself. And since steroids are not a good thing for the human body in the long run, your essentially asking players to endanger their own health if they want to continue playing at a level equal to their peers.
Superstars will feel compelled so they can put up HoF numbers. Decent players will feel compelled to start roiding so they can become stars. Poor players who might not have a chance to make it in the big leagues will feel like they need to take steroids to even crack the big leagues; for some people, this is a lifelong dream, and a serious investment of their lives, and there is a huge difference between being a minor leaguer and a major leaguer in terms of money and lifestyle.
But it doesn’t end there; then kids in colleges take it so they can get drafted higher, and kids in high schools take it so they can go to better colleges. By keeping something that’s harmful to the human body at the highest level at the sport, you encourage people all throughout the pipeline to take these drugs from their teenage years and beyond.
I’m not an expert on whether or not steroids make you a better player, though my gut feeling is that they must, or else so many players wouldn’t have been using, both before and after serious testing began. It’s a stain on the game, and simply because you cannot catch every steroid user does not mean you should excuse those that do use.
So sure, both steroids, corked bats, stealing signs, etc are all cheating and should be dealt with appropriately. But steroids result in a far wider health crisis, so it’s understandable that their is a moral outrage against it. I don’t think it makes players who use “evil” or “hitler x’s100”, but I think that there needs to be a far more serious response to it than other types of cheating.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Stealing signs requires far less work than taking steroids
People didn’t just take steroids and suddenly puff up and become all stars. They used steroids so they could recover quicker and work out harder.
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'd actually posit it's the opposite
I mean, compare what the 1951 Giants did to injecting yourself with something, or popping a pill, or rubbing some cream on yourself.
Not that that matters all that much- just making conversation.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Injecting yourself with a a pill
And then spending dozens upon dozens of hours in the weight room building and maintaining the muscle gains. You don’t just pop a pill and then start hitting 50 home runs in a season.
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All of those hours in the weight room are things that all baseball players of today's era are doing ad nauseum to begin with
More or less, if you’re not built, you’re not playing professional baseball at the highest level. And, more or less, if you’re built, you’re spending hours upon hours working out and conditioning yourself physically. Taking the few second to have yourself injected with something every so often, or swallowing a new pill on top of all of the other supplements you already take, or rubbing some cream on your skin however often consumes a few seconds.
Rigging a system by which signs are stolen by a man in the centerfield scoreboard with a telescope, and the sign is then relayed to the batter/dugout by a series of buzzes and whistles coming from the scoreboard (all semi-manual at the time, mind you) for months, that takes a lot more thinking out and covering up time.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Who gives a shit about how much effort goes into each form of cheating?
Steroids are a big deal because they are bad for your health, and if not dealt with seriously, you’d end up having a sport where you couldn’t break in unless you were damaging your health. I don’t recall ever comparing the amount of work that went into stealing signs or taking roids.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
by Rey-O on Dec 16, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is there any proof that HGH is bad for your health?
Anymore so than anything else these guys are taking?
Well
Anabolic steroids cause many different types of problems. Some of the more serious or long-lasting side effects are:
premature balding or hair loss
dizziness
mood swings, including anger, aggression, and depression
believing things that aren’t true (delusion)
extreme feelings of mistrust or fear (paranoia)
problems sleeping
nausea and vomiting
trembling
high blood pressure that can damage the heart or blood vessels over time
aching joints
greater chance of injuring muscles and tendons
jaundice or yellowing of the skin; liver damage
urinary problems
shortening of final adult height
increased risk of developing heart disease, stroke, and some types of cancer
Not to mention, getting off steroids is often leads to depression, and this is not just limited to people who “abuse” it. Besides, there’s no telling what a lifetime of use would lead to, which its legalization could lead to for athletes.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
and from the wiki page
Anabolic steroids can cause many adverse effects. Most of these side-effects are dose-dependent, the most common being elevated blood pressure, especially in those with pre-existing hypertension,39 and harmful changes in cholesterol levels: Some steroids cause an increase in LDL “bad” cholesterol and a decrease in HDL “good” cholesterol.40 Anabolic steroids have been shown to alter fasting blood sugar and glucose tolerance tests.41 Anabolic steroids such as testosterone also increase the risk of cardiovascular disease2 or coronary artery disease.4243 Acne is fairly common among anabolic steroid users, mostly due to stimulation of the sebaceous glands by increased testosterone levels.4445 Conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) can accelerate the rate of premature baldness for males genetically predisposed, but testosterone itself can produce baldness in females.46
High doses of oral anabolic steroid compounds can cause liver damage, as the steroids are metabolized (17α-alkylated) in the digestive system to increase their bioavailability and stability.3
There are also sex-specific side-effects of anabolic steroids. Development of breast tissue in males, a condition called gynecomastia (which is usually caused by high levels of circulating estradiol), may arise because of increased conversion of testosterone to estradiol by the enzyme aromatase.47 Reduced sexual function and temporary infertility can also occur in males.484950 Another male-specific side-effect that can occur is testicular atrophy, caused by the suppression of natural testosterone levels, which inhibits production of sperm (most of the mass of the testes is developing sperm). This side-effect is temporary: The size of the testicles usually returns to normal within a few weeks of discontinuing anabolic steroid use as normal production of sperm resumes.51 Female-specific side-effects include increases in body hair, permanent deepening of the voice, enlarged clitoris, and temporary decreases in menstrual cycles. When taken during pregnancy, anabolic steroids can affect fetal development by causing the development of male features in the female fetus and female features in the male fetus.52
A number of severe side-effects can occur if adolescents use anabolic steroids.
For example, the steroids may prematurely stop the lengthening of bones (premature epiphyseal fusion through increased levels of estrogen metabolites), resulting in stunted growth. Other effects include, but are not limited to, accelerated bone maturation, increased frequency and duration of erections, and premature sexual development. Anabolic steroid use in adolescence is also correlated with poorer attitudes related to health.53
Other side-effects can include alterations in the structure of the heart, such as enlargement and thickening of the left ventricle, which impairs its contraction and relaxation
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
And all of the adverse health effects end after cessation
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Except for the alterations in the structure of the heart...
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And liver damage
And all the cancers that love the shizz.
__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget
by ScottfromPeekskill on Dec 16, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Eww
Anabolic steroids can affect fetal development by causing the development of male features in the female fetus and female features in the male fetus
Does anyone know how that happens? The mother having extra testosterone in her system, and a girl baby absorbing a little extra and developing male features as a result makes sense to me. The opposite, not so much. The male fetus contains too much testosterone as a result, so the body kicks up the production of female hormones that naturally get produced?
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
yeah im pretty sure thats how steroid man boobs happen
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I mean the second explanation you wrote, that's what happens
it’s also why Manny got busted when he was clearly just trying to get pregnant, introducing more estrogen leads to the body producing more testosterone.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Bleh is all I have to say about hormones
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
yup, the endocrine system tries really hard to not let you mess it up
since it controls pretty much everything.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I still fully believe Manny just wanted to get pregnant
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Manny being Manny
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 2:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Damn,
And I was gonna inject my future baby momma and baby with so much steroids as to make him a super human. There goes that plan of world domination.
yeah stupid science is constantly shooting down my turning myself into
an x-man ideas. I feel your pain.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I have neck and back pain so I asked my doctr if I could get my skeleton covered in adamantium.
Apparently adamantium isn’t real. Needless to say, I was very upset.
There's always vibranium, right?
Right!?
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
unobtanium?
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
bright side, you'll never have to worry about the ramifications of pissing off Ian McKellen
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
this being said metal sucks.
I’m trying to figure out a way there could be a mutant who’s mutant trait is that rather than being 70% water he’s made up 70% of some non-newtonian liquid. So it acts like water under normal circumstances but, as long as he stays reasonable “hydrated”, under extreme force it acts as a powerful body armor, making him virtually indestructible against projectiles.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
though I'm not sure how this would work in terms of not crushing his organs
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Female side effects are far more noticable

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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 17, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
wait that's a chick?
I assumed it was a dude in like a pre 70s NBA uniform
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Jarmila Kratochvilova
Former world record holder in the womens 400m dash. That’s what Eastern Bloc athletes used to look like.
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 18, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
Now they look like this

Praise Dickey and democracy!
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
HGH isn't anabolic steroids though
what he asked about was HGH.
Also you could probably list a similar list for most prescription drugs. I mean if we look up adderral or zoloft are they going to be decidedly less risky?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Yes
__________________________________________________________________
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by ScottfromPeekskill on Dec 16, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
Care to prove that?
One of the side effects of zoloft is increased suicidal thoughts in people, the worst HGH has been linked to is diabetes. And I’m pretty sure you can get diabetes from eating too much McDonalds as well.
also there's no telling what a lifetime of use would lead to for 90% of modern medicine
because most of it hasn’t been around long enough for them to do long-term studies. You don’t have to do long-term studies to become FDA approved and generally when a new more effective medicine comes out it’s quickly phased in, so lack of knowledge on long-term use doesn’t really separate anabolic steroids from any other "legal (by MLB standards) drugs. Or most of the drugs people get prescribed everyday.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Steroids, or HGH aren't inherently damaging to your health
When used under the care of a doctor, it’s a valid treatment. Being baseball specific, cancer survivor Scott Schoenweis was given HGH as a recovery treatment when he was done fighting the cancer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Of course
But there’s a big difference between taking it as part of a treatment, and taking it as part of a lifetime routine for your career.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
is there? The majority of athletes who use HGH use it to heal faster from injuries
so part of treatment, not just on a regular basis. So what is the point of banning it outright rather than allowing it to be an option for athletes when they get injured, under the care of a doctor.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
You and Rey-O are talkign about two different things here.
Do you honestly believe Bonds was using to help recover from injuries? If so, he must’ve had a lot of injuries but someone managed to never miss a lot of games. The whole “but they can use it to help recover from injuries faster” is usually just a veiled attempt to justify an anything goes policy.
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no but my issue is with mlbs blanket ban
which stems from the absurd moral and media backlash from steroid use. Though tbh i don’t care if players use it to recover faster from works outs to fit more in either.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
technically every workout leads to "injuries" since muscle growth is driven by small tears in muscle tissue regrowing
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yes but "injuries" and injuries are two differnt things.
The scale is much greater in injuries than it is in “injuries”. Sometime the semantics is pointing to a real difference.
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Is there any proof that ANY steriods
are bad for your health? Before you say yes, go check the acutal numbers for side effects of steriods, and you will see that they are less than vitamin C.
this is my other issue
especially with HGH, I just don’t understand why anyone cares. Or what separates it from other prescription drugs. And I definitely don’t understand why it’s considered a bad thing for athletes to get healthier faster.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Most athletes aren't taking steroids to get healthier faster
They take it because it improves their performance. When they get caught, they usually say, “Oh, I only took it because I was rehabbing from this back pain”, but that’s pretty much BS. MLB didn’t ban steroids because they didn’t want athletes to be healthy.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
They used it to recover from work outs quicker which is basically the same thing
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Recovering faster from workouts is vastly different than recovering from injuries faster.
In one circumstance, the player is injured, and in the other, he’s not.
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not really
it’s essentially the same thing. (which is why the same drug works) One is just a longer recovery. When you work out you’re essentially abusing your muscles the recovery is the result, injuries are just a more extreme result from some type of “abuse.”
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Yeah
If I remember bio correctly, muscles grow when you work out by basically being used, getting all torn up, producing lactic acid that breaks down the old used muscle and produces the energy to produce the newly healed and stronger muscle. If you hurt yourself, like pulling a muscle, the same thing happens, only in a more extreme and localized manner, and the healing process for the muscle is the same, only slower.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
This is true
but you don’t come back stronger from things that are actually called injuries. In this case, the semantics are reflective of real differences.
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You could, in theory, but not in such a rapidly short period of time, definitley not
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
in a rapidly short time relative to similar injuries
guys who use HGH for work outs don’t really rapidly come back stronger either. They just come back stronger relatively. It’d be the same thing with injuries.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Not really
players come back stronger in the terms of work outs because of reduced time between work outs. An injured player basically has the same thing the reduced time with the injury means he can begin normal activities, work outs included, faster. So he comes back stronger than the non HGH example (i.e 3 weeks after the injury the person using HGH would be ahead of the person not using), just like the guy who uses them for work outs. It doesn’t occur in a vacuum the comparison is from non HGH to HGH, a player gets stronger faster either way. The whole idea is to reduce recovery times. And I don’t see why thats a bad thing.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
No one is debating that Steroids both help recovery from injury and aid in workouts
The point, as has been made above, is that it’s irresponsible to legalize them, because you will then create an environment where everyone has to use them to get better, or just to keep up, or even to make it in the major leagues. And you can’t simply agree to allow them for player who are injured, because that creates a giant sized loophole which defeats the purpose of eliminating them in the first place.
And I don’t buy the “Well they can choose not to” argument, because you’re talking about their careers and livelihoods. And considering that there is a laundry list of side effects from using steroids, I understand why MLB won’t condone making ballplayers choose between their careers and their health.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
My response is why is it irresponsible to legalize them
the choice is no different than the ones people make with prescription drugs, legally, everyday. What is the difference?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Prozac isn't going to help you hit a fastball
But steroids alter the game and change results on the field. See Brady Anderson in 1996, or any of the statistics from the steroid era.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Well if you're too depressed to get up in the morning
it’s gonna be hard to get to the stadium to hit that fastball. Like I take adderral for ADHD, and even though I have pretty severe ADHD symptons to the point I don’t get the huge study benefits from, it still gives me an advantage in studying because I don’t get tired nearly as early and can run off 6-7 hours of sleep perfectly awake (but it also comes with side effects just as, if not more, severe than steroids and definitely worse than HGH)
And if it wasn’t steroids something else would have altered the game, every sport is going to have to split into eras eventually ( and really it’s ridiculous that so many have refused to to this point) just look at NFL passing statistics of the last ten years compared to the prior 30 they’re going to have to divide into eras if they want any of their numbers to have any meaning, same with NBA and hand checking. If changing results on the field is the concern then most modern medicine/training regimes are going to lead to that eventually.
Nevermind just new strategies and ideas as sports turn into billion dollar industries everyones going to be trying to get ahead some way or another, PEDS or not, and it’s going to affect the results on the field. I mean you could argue that the only reason the stats of the last ten years haven’t seemed as off as the steroid era is because of the moneyball theory taking hold on a lot of teams. And outside of the major 4-5 outliers of the 90s are the stats really that different from now?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I don't really buy that argument because it assumes that
steroid use was that prevalent, that if you didn’t use them, you would never be able to reach the Bigs, let alone survive there for any amount of time. All you have to do is look at BB-Ref to see that, from 1989 to 2005, or whatever the ‘Steroid Era’ is, there were plenty of crappy players, and plenty of decent players.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Well, theoretically
those crappy players could have been even crappier if not for help.
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by Ogre39666 on Dec 17, 2011 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not everyone who takes roids is going to be a superstar
But chances are, it’ll make them better than there were. Maybe those crappy players wouldn’t have even been in the major leagues without them, and maybe there were other players who were stuck in the minors who could’ve enjoyed careers as major league backups, but didn’t have the advantage of steroids.
I mean, it’s a lotta supposition, but facts are, it’s well known that lots of people were taking them, so its no doubt that stories like these have happened. I can’t fault MLB for banning them.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Stealng signs also happens on the field
as opposed to bathroom stalls.
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See, this is the kind of response I don't like
Cheating is cheating, and at the end of the day, he cheated. That people in the media like to moralize about it doesn’t dull the fact that he did indeed violate the rules of the game (not to mention lie to a federal grand jury- which is the ultimate moral of the story: Don’t lie to federal grand juries when subpoenaed to testify about something!). That there is an overbearing reaction doesn’t make the initial action permissible, or not as bad as if there wasn’t such an overbearing reaction, as a result (if it’s bad). Too much “anti-anti-steroid” talk turns into the (semi-)moralizing that the anti-anti-steroid crowd rails against.
I understand and agree in part with what you’re saying. Steroids is to today what spitballs were to the 1930s, greenies were to the 1960s-1980s, stealing signs was to whenever, and so on. The only difference is that the passage of time has ingrained those forms of cheating (to various degrees; not so much cocaine, although even there, it is kind of dealt with soft-handedly- look at Keith, for example) into what we see as part of the game. At the time, Commissioner Mountain Landis lobbied hard against the spitball because he was a firm believer of “character” and “integrity” in baseball. Now, we don’t really give a crap. In the 1980s, Commissioner Ueberroth had a shit ton of players suspended for various drugs. Now, it depends on the drug, but we care a lot less. Brandon Moore was suspended for drugs, and, yeah, he is a Minor League player, but most of us are like, “Whatever. See you when the suspension is over”. Hell, a lot of players supposedly get ‘fake’ diagnosis’ for ADHD so they can legally use ritalin, and other ADHD drugs- you never hear about that one. I can guarantee in twenty, thirty years, when some new form of cheating arrives, people will moralize less and less about steroids. But, by the books, it’s a violation of MLB/MLBPA rules and agreements.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Is something cheating if:
a) It isn’t against the rules.
and
b) It’s an established norm.
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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Various steroids and stimulants are Schedule II controlled substances, and are inherently illegal unless dispensed by a professional
In 1971, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn set forth then MLB’s then-drug policy, stating that “unprescribed possession or distribution of amphetamines or barbiturates was a violation of law that could be the basis for discipline [in baseball”.
In 1991, Commissioner Fay Vincent set forth the MLB’s then-drug policy, stating, “The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited…. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs … including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.”
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
And, addressing the second point
“Just because everyone else is doing it” is never an acceptable ‘plea’.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Oh come on
I’m not firmly on either side of this, but pretending that baseball took a serious position against steroids at the time is absurd. A rule without a penalty is not much of a rule.
I never claimed that baseball took any kind of serious anti-steroids position
The contention was that it wasn’t against the rules. As far back as 1971 could steroids be deemed against the rules of baseball if “unprescribed possession or distribution of amphetamines or barbiturates” if hazily progressed to “unprescribed possession or distribution of steroids, HGH, PEDs”, and going further into the future, some new kind of chemical substance that might be invented in thirty years that is deemed a controlled substance. More well defined, the 1991 clearly says “this includes steroids”.
Jaywalking isn’t enforced, but it’s still on the books if someone wants to cite it as a crime.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
And everybody does it
It’s a simple infraction. Someone citing it as a crime would be being a tiresome pedant.
Look, we all try to make our way in the world, getting ahead as best we can, without getting ourselves into undue trouble. Baseball players in the steroid era met that threshold, however we want to view it now. Best case, we make our way in the world without hurting others, and this is why Baseball Inc is culpable, if any entity is, because it didn’t protect those who were being harmed (if they were – there are so many variables) by losing work to the ‘roiding competition. But individual players cannot be held culpable for adhering to the norms of their time, skirting rules that weren’t taken seriously by their authorities.
by SuperT on Dec 16, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
"But individual players cannot be held culpable..."
I agree with all of that, with the exception of this snippet here. Are there reasons they might initially start using performance enhancers? Sure, and percieved need to keep up with competition is one seemingly reasonable one. That doesn’t indemnify them from fault or blame, though Keeping with the Jaywalking analogy, if a cop randomly gives you a ticket for jaywalking, you have to pay it (ignoring that in the ‘real world’, it’d be thrown out of court on just the sheer basis that the court system has better things to do). Just because everyone else does it doesn’t make jaywalking a non-offense if you randomly get cited for it, and just because it’s not something that commonly gets enforced doesn’t make it a non-offense if you randomly get cited for it.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
this is also kind of the point
(ignoring that in the ‘real world’, it’d be thrown out of court on just the sheer basis that the court system has better things to do).
75 million was spent on the probe and prosecution, does the court system, and the government, not have better things to spend 75 million on?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
People get brought up on perjury charges with regularity
Bonds is a high profile case, but it’s not as if he was unduly and unfairly attacked by the government using an arcane law that is never enforced. Roger Clemens, too.
To say that the government does or doesn’t have better things to do with $75 million dollars is a call of opinion. Doesn’t the government have better things to do than spending billions on an army, or bailing out banks and businesses, or school lunches for impoverished children, or anything else that the government does? The facts remain, a person perjured himself, the government prosecutors thought they could prove it, they investigated and there was a trial.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
im not talking about the perjury charge, because that in itself
stemmed from the initial federal probe, which is what im questioning. why was there a federal probe to begin with. Why did the federal government get involved to the point that players were testifying in front of congress.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Because like it or not
baseball is still very ingrained in the fabric of our national.
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what, how is that in anyway an explanation
so is hollywood but i don’t recall any probes into rampant drug use there.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
There absolutely should not be
Drug use should be very low on government priorities.
by Evan_S on Dec 16, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well so is this whole post
and basically everything discussed on this board, and on the internet.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Regardless
it’s a who other discussion and not really pertinent to this one.
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well in the case of drug war the economic data
says the cost of the “war” well outweighs the benefits/
And it’s pertinent if you’re argument is that baseball ingrained status in the national fabric. If it can’t be generalized then the logic fails.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I don't think there should have been a federal probe
That said, it doesn’t matter what our personal opinions are, as James said earlier (a response that is gone, now, for whatever reason)- there was one, Bonds perjured himself, and he gets brought up on charges of perjury. Again, that we think the government should have gotten involved, or shouldn’t have gotten involved is an issue separate.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
1991 wasn't a rule amendment though, it was just a statement
also you can’t just “hazily progress” that makes no sense. What basis is there to hazily progress on and with what boundaries.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
That sort of natural progression occurs all the time
Looking at a historical example in my field of study, the Qur’an initially prohibited alcohol in Sura 5, verse 91, which states, “Satan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from prayer. So, will you not then abstain?”. The meaning of this is basically that alcohol gets you drunk, and while drunk, you aren’t in the right state of mind and can’t properly pray and yada, yada, yada. Initially, intoxicants were only defined as alcohol. Scholars soon looked at the root of why there was an injunction, and expanded the ban to marijuana, khat, and other drugs. In more conservative Islamic countries, other substances/activities are banned because they are seen as meeting the same criteria that the initial injunction was issued for. Video games didn’t exist in the year 700, but because some scholars see them as clouding the mind in the same way alcohol does, it is banned on the same legal grounds.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Commisioner Fay Vincent didn't actually implement a new drug policy
he just said that, they never actually amended the rules. So it still only stated that amphetamines and barbiturates were a violation (also no one has tried to stop the rampant amphetamines use).
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Also, if you go by Vincent's statement
Josh Hamilton should be getting the same treatment by the public and media that Bonds, McGwire, Bagwell, etc., get.
Guys who get test positive for more traditional drugs like that get suspended and penalized just like guys who test positive for PEDs
As I mentioned above, Brandon Moore/Power was suspended 50 games for testing positive on a drug test (and, hopefully, he doesn’t have a problem). Doc Gooden was suspended. Strawberry was suspended. Hamilton was suspended numerous times. That’s all the MLB can do.
On the media side, we don’t have control over what the writers/radio hosts write/say. Like plenty of things unrelated to baseball, they jump on general popular sentiment, ratchet it up, and go with it. I think, with certain cases, the whole “redemption” thing plays into how the media and public react. Compare Gooden and Strawberry, for example. Strawberry generally seems to have cleaned himself up, and has done something with himself in the 10 years or so since the last time he had problems with the law. Gooden, he still is getting in legal trouble, much of it stemming from drugs/alcohol. People I know generally have high regard for Strawberry for at least conquering his demons, while they have low regard for Gooden, who keeps on making the same mistakes over and over and hasn’t learned. Hamilton has that redemption part in his story, too.
Regarding Bonds vis-a-vis, say, Pettitte, another issue probably is also accountability, or at least, admission. Pettitte admitted it, and more or less, that was that. Giambi, the same thing. Even A-Rod and Mark McGwire. Loads of scorn are heaped on Bonds and Clemens because despite apparent evidence to convince most people, they stubbornly refuse to admit it (now, for legal reasons, with all the related purgery stuff). Guys like Piazza, or Bagwell, who people have convicted in the court of public opinion, I bet a little of that is in play, too: People want them to admit their guilt- and, when guys are genuinely guiltless, in the case of both Piazza and Bagwell, they’re in no-mans land, and can’t win.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 16, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Steroids are against the rules, and if you break those rules, you are cheating
There is nothing to take a moral standpoint on here. Whether or not you agree with the rules, and if you come and disrespect the game, you are at fault. That’s it, case closed.
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
They weren't against the rules during the "steroid era"
What Would Matt Szczur Do?
Fact on Villanova Sports
by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 16, 2011 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, this.
People would have used steroids back then, too. I treat the statistical record as the statistical record.
It always seems like I'm never there.
Sometimes I’m glad I am not there though.
"Hey Paul, re..remember when you were in The Beatles? That was awesome."
I don't blame them at all
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Dec 16, 2011 7:47 PM EST reply actions
Am I the only one who doesn't care that Bonds used steroids, or that he lied about it?
I will be the first to admit to being a moralizing, judgmental, close-minded, and even intolerant jerk. But for some reason, I don’t know, perhaps that I get a sense of values elsewhere, and don’t look to baseball players as paragons of anything except baseball-playing ability, I just don’t care how juiced up baseball players are, especially if it’s an established norm. Even if the use of steroids, etc. could be quantified, as a ‘skill’— ability to metabolize and put to good use certain extraordinary substances— that contributes in some definite way to the ability to play baseball well and sustain play for longer, I still wouldn’t care. I do acknowledge that there can be good arguments against Bonds and against steroid use, but what I’ve heard has mostly boiled down to self-righteous moralizing, jealousy, or schadenfreude.
by JohnPeterson on Dec 16, 2011 10:49 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
That last sentence is what really does it for me
Most of the anti-steroid moralizing in the media (not lumping the discussion here) comes from people who, at the time, basically turned a blind eye to the practice. Its not as if everyone woke up one morning and went gasp “I am shocked, shocked to find that steroids are being used in this league!” All the noise after the fact is rather tiresome, especially since it has extended to people for which there is not a shred of proof that they used (see Murray Chass’ continuing crusade against Mike Piazza or Jeff Bagwell, just to name a few), and since certain admitted users get no hate whatsoever from the BBWAA (ARod) or from other baseball personalities (LaRussa went to bat for Mack, who remains employed as hitting coach). Consistency and intellectual honesty would be nice.
Independently of that I am also in the sports players =/= role models for anything other than talent and skill (I modeled my swing on Ike’s starting last season for my softball league with decent success).
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Dec 16, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this is my other issue with the congressional hearings
if they were going to hold them why would they go after the players. It would make 1000x more sense to go after the owners/league, since they’re the ones who get anti-trust and tax exemptions.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Owners have a lot of money
And I’m pretty sure government’s job is to protect the people with the most money first.
I'm currently reading a book called Bottom of the Ninth: Branch Rickey, Casey Stengel, and the Daring Scheme to Save Baseball from Itself
It’s about the Continental League. It’s amazing how in bed politicians were/are with baseball owners, and how counterproductive you’d think that would be.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
that is
one of my favorite baseball books of all time. And I wish the Mets had been the anchors of a third league.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Dec 17, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
But using the double talk by the MSM to excuse the use of steroids is conflating arguments.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Maybe so, I just don't care to be honest
There is so much noise and moral outrage going around that I just don’ care that they roided up, I really don’t. The hypocrisy and double standards get on my nerves to the point where if the MSM, BBWAA, Bob Costas, et al., couldn’t be bothered at the time, then I’m not going to be either. No one has convinced me that steroids had any more of an effect on the game than all of the other cheating and drug use that has gone on over the years (what sanctity does this game have left btw?). It may not be logical, it may conflate arguments, but I really just don’t care
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Dec 17, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm fairly indifferent to it.
Is he a douchebag.. yes. Did he use performance enhancing substances, almost certainly. Is he a terrible role model, without a doubt. Does this anger me? Slightly but not enough to really get worked up.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 17, 2011 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
As far as the role model angle, in terms of PED users,'ve always been weirded out by it
I mean considering how big of a douche Bonds was pre PED’s…was he really a role model for anyone?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Sports figures haven't been role models for twenty, thirty years, anyway
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 2:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Disagree.
Kids want to be like Labron and whoever the NFL flavor of the year is.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Kids want to be like Lebron on the court
but I don’t think many kids want to be like Lebron in everyday life occurences. I’ve also always been curious as to who these “children” we’re so concerned about are. Like how old are they. If they’re 6-9 then I doubt they can conceptualize anything about steroids anyway or really even athletes beyond hey I wanna hit a bunch of home runs thats cool, and I would hope there’s frontal lobes would develop enough for them to grow out of it. If they’re 10-12 then I would hope that either they’re realizing athletes exist in a basically different type of world or that their parents would smack them over the head and explain it to them and introduce them to other types of role models. To me the problem with role models should either be traced to tons of children with really crappy frontal lobe development or parents who aren’t smacking them and making them watch the history channel enough.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Exactly
People want to be talented, or have money, but wanting to have talent/money like Lebron, Bonds, Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, whoever, that’s not the same as viewing them as role models, people to base their own moral development on. Two separate issues.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 4:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There are people base their personal "philosophies" on Weezy.
You’re giving them way too much credit.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
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In their defense, can you think of a more applicable philosphy on today's modern world than
“Real G’s move in silence like lasagna?”
I don't know who Weezy is,
but anyone who says "Real G’s move in silence like lasagna" is a person worth modeling yourself after.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
His palms have to have some free area too.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
I just looked out of curiosity
His right hand has the word “gun” on the palm, his left has “the world.”
This is one ugly dude who just insists on making himself look even more ridiculous.
for some reason I know tons of girls who just love him
like not even girls who even like his music or rap in general. They are actually attracted to him.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
What's not to like about a guy who says Real G’s move in silence like lasagna?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Oh
Lil Wayne, I know of him.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think I'm in this line here
I am all in favor of punishing perjurers, but his obstructive statement wasn’t much. Maybe the best rationalization for that is as punishment for the mysterious refusal by Greg Anderson to spend years in jail instead of testify.
You all might be surprised how many still claim he didn’t take steroids at all.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Dec 17, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
This pretty much sums it up for me. I don’t understand why certain players are going to be crucified for a league wide problem. 5-7% of the league tested positive for steroids with 1 year advance warning. I think it’s safe to assume that a lot more than that were using before testing was implemented, and they were using it because it was encouraged (implicitly and explicitly) by the fans, the media, the teams, and the league. It’s absolutely insane to then slam a few who got caught (Arod), those who got stuck in something else (bonds), people who were just big (bagwell), while letting the other 90 people on the list and everyone else slide.
That said, everyone involved has handled this terribly, including the players. The union should have come out after testing was done and said, “we were all doing it because we thought it would make us better players to put on a better product, now that it is banned we will stop, and anyone who uses from now on will be punished appropriately,” but instead they put up a cone of silence and left some people a sacrifice. The madness isn’t going to end until one of baseball’s “good guys” confesses to using after he gets elected to the hall of fame.
by Phildo on Dec 17, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed I think the players union handled it the absolute worse of all above
they chose to try and scapegoat certain players, Mcguire, Sosa and Bond and act like it was isolated. And once that stance was formed they lost any sort of power to shift blame to where it should have lain, owners and baseball leaders, when it inevitably blew up in their faces.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
It couldn't just be a good guy, I think it would have to be a whole swarm of them
cause the media has no problem with the hypocrisy of suddenly turning someone they’ve written as a hero into a villain using hindsight. Look at Clemens, I’ve always disliked him personally but to the media he was superman and an American hero. almost the antibonds (despite the fact that every suspicion surrounding Bonds surrounded him just as strongly) but as soon as it came out they did a complete 180 in hours and suddenly everyone knows he’s an asshole and has all these dark secrets come out.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
The heroes in stories all ways throw shards of wood at unsuspecting innocents
That’s how they knew he was an American Hero. Who would have thought that man was actually a lying asshole?
Would a lying asshole have a weird relationship with an underage country music singer?
Of course not!
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 17, 2011 2:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Reacting to your statement as though I was an ESPN anchor
I won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it.
Hey look at this guy in his mid-late 30s making an improbable turn around from 4th starter material back to bonafide ace. See what hard work gets you guys. That’s what Roger Clemens love, hard work, apple pie and America.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Sorry, I've been out of the country
did Barry Bonds do something wrong ?
One day, this team is going to kill me.
Abstractedly reminds me of Lucas Duda in the outfield
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 18, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
To PEDs!
The cause of, and solution to, ALL of life’s problems…
by hotspur on Dec 19, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Can't NOT rec a quote from one of my favorite simpsons episodes.
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.






























