The One-Way Street of Steroid Confessions
Is it possible to consider an argument valid while believing many of its most vocal proponents are full of it? Because I feel that way when it comes to one side of the Steroid Era debate.
There are people who believe the rampant use of PEDs in the late 1990s/early 2000s tainted records and the game of baseball itself, particularly when it comes to the "sanctity" of home run records. I don't agree with that point of view, but I know a lot of fans do, and they're entitled to feel that way if they so choose. I could certainly debate the point in a gentlemanly manner with a reasonable person who held such a view.
My beef is more with sportswriters who feel that certain players should be kept out of the Hall of Fame, even those who've never tested positive for anything and weren't named in the Mitchell Report, out of fear we may taint Cooperstown with future revelations. These feelings of "guardianship" over the sport are, at best, too little too late, and at worst, disingenuous and hypocritical.
Already in this post-Winter Meetings period, we've seen columnists writing articles about how they can't bring themselves to vote for Jeff Bagwell--not because of anything he is proved to have have done, but because he simply existed at time and place when people were doing Bad Things. It's like being thrown in jail for no other reason than you happen to live in a neighborhood with a high crime rate.
I recently discussed this with fellow AAer Jeffrey Paternostro on his podcast Metropolitan Tales, specifically in regard to Mike Piazza. Like Bagwell, the evidence that he did steroids is, at best, circumstantial. (Basically, there's a few lines in Jeff Pearlman's The Rocket Who Fell to Earth, Murray Chass's weird bacne obsession, and that's it.) Piazza's numbers combined with his position make him a no-brainer Hall of Fame vote, but we both came to the conclusion that he would, at the very least, be kept out of the Hall for one year much in the way Roberto Alomar inexplicably was--a timeout-to-think-about-what-you-did move.
Professional sportswriters are entitled to their opinions just as fans are. The difference is, unlike fans, sportswriters had a chance to do something about the evil they now decry. These people were in locker rooms for the almost two decades between when Jose Canseco became steroids' Johnny Appleseed and when the Mitchell Report came out. But if you go back and look at the historical record, articles from this period decrying steroid use, calling for investigations, accusing the game of being tainted, etc., are few and far between. They certainly don't carry the virulence and great weeping and gnashing of teeth you see about the subject beginning in the mid-2000s.
In order to vote for the Hall of Fame, you must be an active baseball writer for at least 10 years. That means anyone currently eligible to cast a ballot had to have been around for the absolute height of the so-called Steroid Era, presumably working in close proximity to players on a daily basis. Am I to believe that hundreds of baseball players were able to keep this Terrible Secret from hundreds of intrepid reporters? More likely, reporters had an inkling of what was going on, but there simply wasn't the will or outrage to report on it, and so they didn't.
There were always whispers about Canseco and other players, but no real thought that the game would be soiled by widespread PED use. For a reaction typical of this era, check out this clip from a 1988 season post mortem. Various sportswriters anticipate a Mets-A's World Series matchup, and Bob Klapisch wants to see it because he's convinced Canseco "is on steroids." He and his fellow scribes laugh at this, and move on.
The post-Mitchell Report hysteria over steroids from most writers reminds me of Mayor Quimby's reaction to "learning" there was a burlesque house in Springfield. ("In light of these recent facts, of which I now realize I was largely aware...") To explain their inability to report in any meaningful way on something they now denounced, many reporters retroactively painted themselves as dupes, or as being caught up in the childlike wonderment of the 1998 home run chase. So either we have to believe that they're lying or they're really bad at their jobs.
In order to cover their tracks, some writers engaged in a Can You Top This Outrage. It created an Orwellian nightmare scenario, where players suddenly had to apologize for things that weren't considered crimes when they were committed, to a tribunal of people who had once tacitly approved those "crimes." They sought self criticism sessions like something out of China's Cultural Revolution, only instead of Mao's Little Red Book, the accusers were brandishing their fears and bruised egos.
For instance, I was struck by how many calls there were for Mark McGwire to "confess" steroid use, particularly after his embarrassing Congressional appearance. Because everyone forgot that McGwire had already admitted it. When a reporter spotted a bottle of androstenedione (the synthetic testosterone virtually no one had heard of up to that point) in his locker in 1998, McGwire copped to taking it. And that was, essentially, that.
There was some mild debate if using this heretofore unknown substance constituted cheating, but it was all a distant memory when McGwire broke Roger Maris's single season home run record. When it was debated later if andro should be banned in baseball, Bud Selig made a point to say, "Whatever baseball decides, the only thing that concerns me is none of this should ever diminish what Mark McGwire did this year." (see link above)
Then all of a sudden, years later, the press demands that McGwire confess to something he'd already confessed to doing. Because that confession came when we really didn't care about what you did, and now we demand a real, tearful, heart-rending mea culpa.
So if we're going to keep an entire generation of players out of Cooperstown on general principle, perhaps we should do the same for the reporters who covered them. And the broadcasters, for that matter. Their capacity as journalists put them in a position to expose the evils of steroid use, but they failed to do so, which makes them accomplices after the fact. Can we really take the chance of electing a writer to the Hall of Fame now, only to find out years later he knew about PEDs in baseball but said nothing until it was expedient to do so?
This is the logical extension of the mentality of writers who would keep the likes of Bagwell, Piazza, and even Barry Bonds (who never tested positive for anything, by the way) out of the Hall of Fame. But if their track record is any indication, I won't hold my breath until I see them apply the standards they have for players to themselves.
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Bravo! Nice article.
Personally I couldn’t care less if a player was ’roiding up or not. The players are circus animals in my eyes.
by Shinjo Is God on Dec 20, 2011 2:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Couldn't care less
EVERYBODY took it. Both pitchers and hitter took it. Even the ballboys took it.
The playing field was effectively level becuase it was equally skewed and the records should count. The only complaint I hear is against guys like Bonds Clemmens and McGuire and some others hired better trainers / drug procurers and had a slight edge over everyone else. Such is life.
The only person I know to have NOT taken steroids is Joe Mckewing. I mean, just look at him. Really.
Don't forget!
Former Met Jason Tyner!!
by Shinjo Is God on Dec 20, 2011 2:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Wouldn't the rise of hitting / very high league average ERAs suggest that despite the fact that "everyone took it" there was still a clear disadvantage for pitchers?
by Criss Angel Couldn't Make Frenchy Vanish on Dec 20, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Does it matter?
Does it make it worse for a position player to take it than a pitcher because they gain more from it? Illegal is illegal, and I’m not talking about MLB’s rules.
Astro Travellin'
I agree.
I was just trying to argue against the “it was ok cause everyone took it” logic in a different way.
by Criss Angel Couldn't Make Frenchy Vanish on Dec 21, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
It's going to be interesting to see what happens
McGwire has been stalling on the HoF ballot because of the steroids- personally, I feel he’s a borderline candidate anyway. When guys like Bonds, or Clemens make the lists, guys who are certified Hall of Famers, who also did the juice, it’ll be interesting to see what happens there. It’d be a travesty for Bonds to not be in the HoF, but at the same time, it’s not like the cream and the clear can be completely ignored, either.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 2:53 PM EST reply actions
Why do you think Mark McGwire is a borderline HoFer?
He had nine seasons with a wOBA above .400, most of which were closer to .500.
by TheBigStapler on Dec 20, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
As I remember him, he was a generic slugging first baseman
Hit for power (a lot of power), didn’t have that high of a BA, had a nice OBP (because of all that power), wasn’t particularly mobile or immobile at first.
I’d have to look at his stats overall, but in retrospect, I recall him as pretty two-dimensional. And he was one of my favorite players as a kid.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 7:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's accurate, but not fair
He was indeed a pretty one-dimensional player, but his magnitude in that one dimension was HUGE. McGwire was simply one of the best hitters ever to live. He had two seasons of wRC+ greater than 200 — and he’s in absolutely elite company on the career leaderboard as a pure hitter — his career wRC+ of 157 puts him just below Musial and above Mays. There’s nothing even close to borderline about his HoF case.
Looking at his stats now, he qualifies for the HoF based on WAR
I have no real problems with him being voted in, but I don’t really consider him in that tier of players he sits next to in the sortable stat categories.
Damn, 1998 was a monster year. 8.8 WAR with a -16 TotalZone score. If he was less in the negatives, let alone even, or even a positive fielder, he’d probably have an ever elusive 10.0+ WAR.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
I feel that was more about Sammy Sosa
Offensively, he hit homers and did nothing else. 609 homers and a .370 wOBA? That’s not overly impressive to me. In my mind, Sosa’s not a hall of fame player.
This
You take out his 60 HR seasons with massive ISOs and he’s a less good version of Strawberry.
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
He's a 64 win player
with nearly 100 fielding runs. I’m usually a proponent of WAR based analysis for hall of fame/seasonal awards, but I hate putting so much on defensive stats, and offensively he did only one thing above average. True, that one thing was the most important thing the sport and he did it way, way, way above average, but nothing else seems to warrant a Hall of Fame vote.
This is hypocritical of me, as below (or above, too lazy, tired, and still trying to study to look) I say players who took steroids pre 2005 shouldn’t be penalized, but Sosa’s entire career is based off of his ability to hit for power. He’s a borderline hall of famer with 600 homers, at 500, I don’t think he’s close.
My only real beef with steroid use...
isn’t what it might do to the actual professionals (they’re adults, it’s their bodies), but the message it sends to the aspiring professionals. If truly everybody in MLB were to be doing it, then it stands to reason that one who wishes to make it to the majors one day should start doing it as early as possible to put themselves in a better position of possibly accomplishing their goal. The result of this would be more college and high school players using PEDS, and I wouldn’t put it past an overzealous father to start his Little Leaguer on certain products as well. This to me is why it can’t be permitted.
I think it's okay to want steroids out of baseball for that reason and all the other reasons
but be willing to forgive the era in which it was rampant because the league, the players, the writers, and the fans did little to stymie it.
It’s perfectly fair to say, now that everyone cares a lot, that we don’t want PEDs in the game and we’ll be annoyed if anyone uses them.
by TheBigStapler on Dec 20, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
Great piece and I especially love the opening. I get that people don’t like PEDs and wish they were never a part of the game. I disagree and am not opposed to the presence of PEDs in the game, but I understand and can even respect the opinion of people who do not share my take. The current MLB policy regarding banned substances is fine. I am not outraged at the lack of PEDs in baseball.
What I cannot tolerate are those who seek to demonize individual players, with favoring the ban of any PED user from the Hall of Fame one such vessel of that demonization. If you are one to be outraged about the Steroid Era, direct that outrage at MLB executives, owners, union leaders who were okay with it – the institution, basically – and not at the players who justifiably did what they could to gain an edge.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 20, 2011 3:20 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
I think it's everyone involved
and, honestly, I think that’s what most steroid critics think. I really don’t see a lot of people demonizing Bonds and ALSO absolving, say, Selig. There are myriad “woe to all” articles out there. When it comes to a single player who took steroids, however, like Bonds, does he deserve a free pass because the institution enabled him? No — he’s responsible for his actions, too.
In my own little view, it was the union and Don Fehr (possibly in the thrall of the superagents) who were the biggest villains. If steroids pose a health risk, isn’t it incumbent upon the union to protect its members health and try to drive them out of the league? (And if they’re NOT a health problem, to advocate for that position.) Well, no, because the players earning the most money who were de facto in control of the union and the superagents who represented them had a vested interest in protecting the status quo. (One might suggest that the agents behaved properly by protecting their clients’ interests, although there’s an ethical can there into which I don’t care to peer.) But the union’s duty is to all of the players — powerful and powerless — and they fought testing tooth and nail as a trumped up “privacy” issue.
by tmu on Dec 20, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing I questionis just how justifiable those players' actions were.
It wasn’t specifically banned by the MLB, but it (steroids) was against the law, was it not?
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Law isn't morality
Law is opinion with a gun. I couldn’t care less what the law has to say on this.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 20, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So then players can just shoot the guy about to catch their fly ball. Instant double, maybe even a triple.
It’s against the law but apparently not a problem!
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I knew this would be the response
Shooting a guy about to catch a fly ball is pretty obviously wrong. Putting a substance in your body which has no effect on anyone else is not. You might think it’s gross and creepy and stupid but it’s not inherently wrong.
And FWIW, the FDA, DEA and all the other A’s didn’t think anabolic steroids should be added to the Controlled Substance Act but they were. I’ll side with the experts.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 20, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Whether or not the law is "right" or "wrong"
it is still a law. Unless these athletes who juiced start coming out and proclaiming that their hiding in bathroom stalls while injecting and denials while under oath are a form of private protest or dissent, I’ll continue to not accept your “its not inherently wrong so the law can be waived off” reasoning.
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In case I am not being clear enough
in order for those who break the law to be excused in the public eye, they have to be breaking said law with the intention to show how it is an immoral or wrong law (i.e. protest). Protest is inherently public. Hiding in the bathroom while you inject yourself with a substance that is illegal and denying up and down while under oath that you ever took said substance is not compatible with protest.
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Apparently your comments are disappearing or something so I'll just keep replying to myself.
Scorn doesn’t have anything to do with it – or at least I never mentioned it. The only thing in your original comment I took issue with was the justified part. I want to know how is someone justified in breaking the law for personal gain (and not some home poker game for 20 bucks among firends, but several million dollars worth of contracts and endorsements)? If these guys can ignore that law for their own gain, does that mean I can ignore grand theft auto laws for my gain? And if it wasn’t for personal gain, then what was it for? The only scenarios I can think of where someone can be considered justified in breaking a law is to point out how wrong it is (hence my mention of protest) or there exists a clear and urgent need to do so (saving life or preventing injury). Since these individuals clearly weren’t doing either of those, how were they justified?
And I never assumed the law was just, only that it existed and as such, has penalties associated with breaking it.
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Again
Grand theft auto is pretty clearly wrong. Playing a home poker game is not. Simply putting steroids into one’s body is not. I think we are speaking past each other.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 21, 2011 7:40 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
this is actually a pretty good point I never thought of, gambling is illegal in georgia
but our local AFB hosts a biweekly poker tournament every week. I hope congress probes that next.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
The Law is not the Problem
Hall of Fame guidelines don’t say anything about “if this person broke a state or federal law, he is not HOF material.” You got to play baseball by the rules in place when you are a player. Period.
What we are burdened with now is post-hoc rule invention and application. That is stupid and will cause the HOF to become irrelevant in a few years. People need to let go of their woolly-headed moralizing and remember that the Hall of Fame is about Baseball, not just the baseball that makes old sports writers feel happy.
by IanB in MD on Dec 20, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
The Hall of Fame guidelines do say
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played.”
Emphasis mine. Breaking laws (baseball or U.S. government), not breaking laws but certainly running contrary to the spirit of the law (baseball or U.S. government), by the definition of what writers are supposed to look at when determining who gets their vote and who doesn’t, isn’t supposed to be hand waved away because it doesn’t take place directly on the field. A relic of the past, I personally think, and problematic for the obvious reasons we’re seeing now, but it’s still there nonetheless. The voting process has the woolly-headed moralizing directly built into it.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See what you're saying. Trouble is...
First, that writers today are imposing moral standards that were not applied to old players. The idea that PEDs are the worst possible infraction of a morality code is farcical. (I am waiting for some dumb writer to drop PEDs one day and talk about how he could not vote for Jeter because he was a womanizer.)
Second, in the case of Bagwell, voters are punishing a man for a “crime” there is no evidence he committed. (Piazza is next.)
Crucifying Bagwell and Piazza is wrong, no ifs, ands, and buts about it
I don’t mind hating on a guy who is suspected of doing steroids, but I need some conclusive proof, be it admission, actual failed tests, pretty stark physical changes coupled with stat changes, all that. Some conclusive or semi-conclusive proof. Back acne, or hitting a lot of home runs (like no guy has ever had back acne, or hit a lot of home runs) doesn’t satisfy my standard of proof. Unfortunately, there are people out there that it does.
If that stuff is present to whatever degree, the voter has the prerogative to vote in favor or against their conclusion. It is what it is, and even if it wasn’t formally included, it still would happen that way anyway. Writers refuse to vote for certain players for HoF or MVP for comically stupid reasons, not even looking at the gray area when it comes to the rules and rule breaking.
And, in twenty, thirty years, there will be some new problem and steroids will be handwaved into history just like amphetamines have. In the 1920s, after it was banned, there was much ado about spitballs. Mountain Landis saw them as the biggest threat to the game then (outside of everpresent gambling problems), because they stood to strip morality from the game, or something to that effect. Sound familiar? Amphetamines were definitley more under the radar in the ‘70s and ’80s than they are now- Brandon Moore/Power got a 50-day suspension for testing positive for a drug more ’hardcore’ than just weed, and among the media, and even AA, that’s a general footnote, something in a small column in the papers, briefly mentioned on the 20/20 updates, or a Fanshot and not talked about much again. In ten, twenty years when some new thing comes along, the outrage regarding steroids will dim. The only reason it didn’t seem as strong regarding issues in the past because the internet and 24/7 TV/radio echo chambers didn’t exist, and people couldn’t call in Mike Francessa to tell him that they agree, and for him to agree that they agree that they agree.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
I in no way condone the guilty by association of Bagwell.
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The problem is the writers pick and choose which laws they care about
do you think they’re going to refuse to vote in every player who ever got a drunk driving citation? Or who was accused of “disturbing the peace”.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I don't think anyone is excusing the writers here.
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They're allowed to
It’s stupid, but they’re allowed to- they’re supposed to. Morals aren’t universal and whatnot.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 21, 2011 6:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The difference (in my mind) is that getting drunk, beating your wife, 'consorting' with gamblers or hiring a prositute
doesn’t improve your game. PEDs, by definition, do.
So, yes, I’d keep out Keith on the basis of his amphetamine use.
Would you kick out Willie Stargell from the HOF? Mike Schmidt? Willie Mays?
All have been linked to amphetamines.
What about Gaylord Perry’s admitted doctoring of baseballs?
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
So, basically nobody is allowed into the Hall of Fame?
Because I’m pretty sure almost every player in there has used some sort of “performance enhancer” of some sort (amphetamines, greenies, whatever).
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by Steve Schreiber on Dec 23, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Tommy John
Tommy John surgery greatly improves your game. Lasic eye surgery greatly improves your game, too. Both would be dangerous if players did it themselves in hiding, like they did/do with PEDs.
TJ surgery does not improve your game at all.
It’s a common misconception. It’s really all the hard work these guy do to come back from the injury that helps their game.
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I think you'd consider the improvement a by-product of TJ surgery.
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by Steve Schreiber on Dec 27, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Shooting outfielders is the new market inefficiency
Next Phillies game, make it happen, Sandy.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Yes they would be.
However, I don’t think those illegal drugs were ever considered to be capable of enhancing performance (Dock Ellis aside) so there is room for distinction. And anyway, I was just questioning the “justifiable” part here, not really HoF eligibility.
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Yes, but then it become subjective and that's always a problem and what, at least I think, what needs to be eliminated in evaluting players
Under the rules before they were changed, both marijuana and steroids were illegal by federal law, but not explicitly and specifically mentioned as banned substances by Major League Baseball. So under federal law they are viewed as equal, under MLB rules they were viewed as equal, but because one improves muscle growth and one gives you the munchies (guess which one does what!), they now become unequal. That’s just not fair.
But your arguement stated above, wasn't about whether or not it enhanced performance
I believe you said that regardless of MLB ban, it was illegal, thus a disqualifier for the HOF. Coke and weed, regardless of PED properties are illegal, yet somehow the “but the bottom line is it’s illegal” argument is now not enough?
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much what I am against is the hand waiving aside some people are doing about steroid use when it is an illegal activity.
“Eh, whatever” is not a reasoned response (not saying this is what you are doing, just that there are some who are).
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Fair enough, but I don't think most people are
“hand-waving”, as it were.
I feel like most people are saying, it sucked, it’s wrong, but going back and the witch hunts and moralizing don’t make anything better. It’s a sort of broken vigilante justice without a cool Bruce Wayne backstory.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
And yes,
I just outed myself as a comic book geek. :)
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's cool.
In the last three days I’ve probably watched the TDKR trailer 12 times.
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It was good
but I just couldn’t help but think how fake the beards and eyebrows looked.
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I'm not sure if I want to see it, honestly.
I do know I don’t want to see it on a computer screen.
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AHHHH THE INTRO WAS ONLINE
IM ANGRY NOW.
though I heard Bane was impossible to understand in the intro.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I disliked the dark knight (a lot)
but can’t help but get excited for the dark knight rises. Even though I’m sure it’s just going to make me angry.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
.
I disliked the dark knight (a lot)
You’re dead to me.
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i loved batman begins
but the dark knight just annoyed me, it seemed like one long-stream of obvious overplayed super hero tropes and villain gambits aided by a bunch of really stupid people.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I loved batman begins
I just found the dark knight to be boring. The Joker was brilliant but everything else was wooden and predictable. And as brilliant as Heath Ledger was even his big kidnapping gambit was predictable. After the chase I already knew what was coming and was pissed off that no one in Gotham had apparently ever seen an action movie. For a city so wrought with crime you’d think they’d be way more vigilant. But no first they let Dent and Rachel go off without 30 cops surrounding them then they leave the Joker, who just caused mass fuckery, with one overweight cop to guard him. I just can’t distill belief enough to accept plot forced character stupidity. Plus, and I get the point was to focus on the dark knight and not bruce wayne, but I just found their portrayal of just batman to be really boring and wooden, and not the fascinating dark knight of cannon. Which is why I liked batman begins so much better because the Wayne/Batman interplay is much more interesting than just I’m Batman, also I felt two-faces story-line just felt rushed and serving no real purpose on its own (other than as a device to advance the Joker plot. I could probably write a bunch more but basically, outside of the scenes with the Joker I just thought the whole thing was really lame and predictable and kind of just going through the motions to get to the third movie. I feel like if you remove Heath Ledger you just get a movie thats great only in comparison to the hot mess that was the late 90s batman movies snoozefest.
And on a similar note character stupidity borderline ruined X-men first class for me. I couldn’t be emotionally touched by all the man-pain on the beach because I was too busy being angry at the CIA check for shooting a metal projectile AT A MAN WHO’S NAME IS FUCKING MAGNETO. Like really, you are literally watching him make much larger and deadlier projectiles his bitch as you are deciding the best course of action is to send an even smaller projectile at him.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Well the "kiddnapping gambit" should have been fairly predictable.
Two Face has to come from somewhere and everyone knew Two Face was in the movie from the get-go.
How is Batman giving in to his rage in the interview scene not compelling? The whole Joker/Batman interaction is about pushing Batman to his limits wrt his rule.
And how on earth did the fall of Harvey Dent not serve a purpose beyond the Joker plot? He was supposed to save the city. Once he gave into his rage as Two Face all his work and the apparent progress the city was making was fell apart.
And how a movie can remain as interesting minus a hugely important character is beyond me.
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I mean in the movie it served no purpose
the story wasn’t developed enough to batman fans obviously they knew what was up but to anyone just watching the movie it just seemed like a forced in plot-line that got the back seat to the joker. And I didn’t say if you removed the Joker, I said if you removed Heath Ledgers brilliant performance. He was the only compelling part of the movie (to evan’s comment I didn’t say remove the actual character so removing Michael Corleone isn’t a parralel. But even if for some reason you did you still have Brando/(then Deniro’s) story as Vito, Sonny’s downfall, Fredo’s jealousy and betrayal. That movie kind of proves my point none of the characters were wooden or underdeveloped.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
The Joker served a purpose. Harvey Dent served a purpose. Two Face served a purpose.
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How was the plot forced?
The Joker is the bad guy who wants to create chaos in Gotham (and that basically what the Joker is trying to do in every story he’s put in) and Batman is trying to stop him. The other part of it being is that Gotham is in shambles, crime is taking over and Batman is trying to stop it vigilante style and Harvey Dent is trying to stop it through the system.
Where is any of that any different from any other plot line in any other superhero story. Superheroes fight the bad guys, that’s what they do. What else were you expecting, and what are you expecting for the third, cause spoiler, the bulk of it is Bane is gonna try and destroy Gotham and kill Batman, and Batman is gonna try and stop him.
No I said the Harvey Dent/Two-face transformation plot line was forced
not the whole plot
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
You also said:
The Joker was brilliant but everything else was wooden and predictable.
and
not the fascinating dark knight of cannon
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Well,
if you’re not gonna let me take things out of context……
I guess we’ll disagree on this one, but I don’t think it was forced at all. Harvey Dent showed the other side of the fight. Batman fought the criminal world one way, Harvey Dent was supposed to be the hero people could side with, one who could change things through the system. Then, when he became two face, he snapped (just like in the comic). It wasn’t the traditional route, I think many Batman fans wanted to see Two-Face have a much larger part as a villain, but that would have been forcing things in my opinion.
I hate this arguement so much as it makes no sense
I feel like if you remove Heath Ledger….
Yes, and if you remove Michael Corleone from the first Godather, you get Fredo taking over as head of the family and Godfather Part II becomes a comedy. If you decide Han Solo doesn’t have a place in Star Wars, I’m pretty sure the only love interest for Leia is Luke, and that becomes a huge problem.
And also, one of the things that you’re complaining about is how the police are handling these guys. To us he’s “The Joker,” probably the best comic book villain ever, to them he’s some new criminal who wears clown make-up, not the clown prince of crime just yet. It’s not very often criminals break out of jail cells that quickly, predicting everything perfectly and preparing for it accordingly. You have to look at the characters actions from their perspective, only knowing what they know, not what we know.
This
to them he’s some new criminal who wears clown make-up, not the clown prince of crime
The Nolanverse has no superheroes of villans. Batman was the first person to ever be anything like super hero. You could say the Scarecrow/Ra’s was the first baddie to come about but that was a private scheme that only Batman, Alfred, Lucius Fox, Gordon, and maybe then commissioner Loeb know about. The Joker was the first publicly visible terrorist/super villain they would have ever encountered. The cops were used to dealing with petty crimes and mob-related stuff – not guys who have a fetish for dynamite and gasoline and rig their vest with live grenades.
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fuck it I'm gonna force my little sister to go see Mission Impossible with me
just for the prologue. Maybe after the prologue I can sneak into Hugo or something.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
Make sure the place you're going to has it.
It’s only in true, 70MM IMAX locations. I’d call ahead and check.
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I heard a lot of that was blown way out of proportion.
Like his voice wasn’t super clear, but after a second you were like “oh, okay”. And the most important line or something was perfectly understandable. Of course I haven’t seen it to judge for myself, but I trust the guy (Batman-On-Film) who said it.
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Some of it you can't hear well
But it’s overblown. I’m sure all will be fine when the movie comes out.
Yeah, his line was perfectly clear in the trailer.
“When Gotham is in ashes, you have my permission to die.”
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I was talking about the 6 minute intro part (featuring Tommy Carcetti/Petyr Baelish aka Littlefinger)
Some of that was unclear.
Oh, I know.
I was just affirming your thinking that it would be fine when the actual movie comes out by pointing out that it wasn’t a problem in the trailer.
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Good article and a great point
Hat tip to Steve on the Twitter machine!
Another thing that gets me is that I don’t understand the writers’ continued insistence in calling recent players “cheaters” (even without a rule that would even justify that statement) while acting like the players of yore are above reproach. They either don’t know or refuse to recognize baseball’s long history of cheating. Babe Ruth tried to inject himself with extract from sheep testicles to give himself a boost and corked his bats. Willie Mays and Hank Aaron were both hopped up on greenies throughout their careers.
I told one of the national writers on Twitter the other day that I found him to be hypocritical in his treatment of guys like McGwire unless he was also demanding that guys like Ruth, Mays, and Aaron were removed from the HoF over their transgressions, but got no response. Shocking!
Petition:
Since the baseball writers have so much authority to determine which players enter the HoF, let the players select the annual winner of the J.G. Taylor Spink Award (the sportswriter equivalent of the HoF, recently given to such luminaries as…Murray Chass). That ought to temper some of the moralizing.
by Walter Gropius on Dec 20, 2011 3:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's funny that everyone seems so concerned about induction a "cheater" into the hof
when there is already (at least) one there. Gaylord Perry who was widely believed to have illegally doctored baseballs and thrown spitballs (and was ejected from a game and suspended for it in 1982) has already been inducted. Perry’s stats were undoubtedly made better by breaking rules that were clearly defined and had been on the books for decades. Why doesn’t the same steroid logic apply? Why is Perry’s career remembered fondly and his rule breaking laughed off as harmless gamesmanship while Mark McGwire is considered the worst person who ever lived? If sportswriters are concerned about accidentally electing a cheater then sorry guys but you already failed. I think Perry should be in the hall of fame because he was a great player and that same standard should be applied to everyone.
by joma16 on Dec 20, 2011 3:43 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
The Perry comment is a red herring.
There is no moral equivalency between on field cheating/gamesmanship, which can be policed by umpires on the field and taking PED’s which created an environment where dozens of existing and aspiring athletes felt compelled to risk their health merely to keep up with their doping brethren. I don’t have a problem if a sportswriter thinks twice about McGwire based on the morals clause in that he admitted taking steroids (and not just andro). I do think the Bagwell/Piazza suspicion issues are unfair and it is inappropriate to penalize a guy merely because he had big muscles or went from 62nd round pick to the greatest hitting catcher in MLB history.
by goquakers on Dec 20, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
there is a difference between
breaking a documented rule (doctoring the ball) and not breaking a rule (there were no rules about steroids or HGH until 2002).
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Not breaking a rule perhaps
but if they took them after 1990, they were breaking the law.
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by Ogre39666 on Dec 20, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which tells you MLB's stance on it.
“Let’s allow them to do it as long as it benefits us! Then we’ll ban it and place all the blame on the players.”
Astro Travellin'
Or they thought they didn't need to have a rule banning every illegal activity.
I’m not excusing Selig or the owners or the union, but I doubt they left is “open” with the hopes players would start juicing.
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really? Because I'm almost certain that's what they did
or at least they were more than aware of the juicing in the mid 90s but didn’t care because of the revenues they were gaining post strike.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I'm not talking about that. Yeah, when Sosa and McGuire were chasing each other I'm sure they didn't care how they were doing it, just that they were "saving baseball".
I’m talking about before steroids “boomed”. I doubt they left the “loophole” open hoping that players would start juicing.
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Stop it!
Amphetamine use was also against the law, but no one pees the bed about it. Steroids are the ultimate red-herring.
Furthermore, neither Piazza nor Bagwell are connected with the use of PEDs. People suppose they used them, but they have no proof. Guilt by association twisted with woolly-headed moralizing and wishful thinking. Piazza might have been a juice-fiend, but no one here know either way. Penalizing him for playing baseball in the 90s and 00s is cruel.
by IanB in MD on Dec 20, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
That doesn't hand-wave away the rule breaking stemming from using steroids, though
I’m generally against steroid moralizing, but I don’t like it when people invoke the idea that, since no one really cared about spitballs, or greenies, or whatever else (which is factually untrue), no one should care about steroids. I think that an equal amount of derision should be employed for each. Too many people take the opinion that all the steroid use should not be penalized, I think, because of all of the moralizing that anti-steroid people do. It’s against the rules or the spirit of the rules, and guys should be penalized if caught, be it via fines, suspensions, whatever.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Dunno.
I’m not excusing anyone for PED use. Without a doctor’s oversight, it is dangerous (private use of any drug is dangerous.) It is something that should be acknowledged, but not as an excuse to erase 10-15 years of baseball history.
Ah, ok
I read your description to reactions regarding it as how you feel about it.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
They were still illegal without prescription
The MLB rules pre-2005 prohibited players from using controlled substances without prescription.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 21, 2011 7:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
And whatever the penalty was for using controled substances without prescriptions should be the only penalty
Jail
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
So because no one is mad about this one wrong over here (amphetamines)
this other wrong (steroids) is okay?
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Not exactly.
That amphetamines and steroids are not treated equally is a farce. Their use without a Doctor’s prescription is dangerous, and private use is illegal. Both have been used by players to enhance their performance. Both are now forbidden.
The focus on 90s and 00s steroid use is tone-deaf and myopic. For the most part, the MLB anti-steroid bandwagon has been driven by holier-than-thou sports writers who feel bad about cheering for Sosa and McGuire. We need to look past the histrionics.
by IanB in MD on Dec 21, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
This
while (as I’ve said) I don’t really care about PED use my issue is more with the picking and choosing of what they’re going to moralize about. If they truly wanted a clean sweep of all PED’s in baseball then that would be an entirely different issue. But instead they use the steroid area to scapegoat certain players for all the “evils” in sports.
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
I am not condoning the BBWAA's actions.
I never said I did.
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My point is
it’s not just the writers and owners who were complicit. We as fans were complicit. We cheered along just as much as the writers and owners did, despite being less directly benefitted.
The only way to stay logically consistant on moral outrage is to also condemn the previous generation of players who used amphetamines. The morals clause in HOF voting is just too capriciously invoked for it to be a fair standard to use, imo.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
I have a hard time saying the fans were complicit.
We had very little to go on to form the conclusion that a lot of players were juicing. And even if it was a widely known fact, fans don’t have the ability to force their will upon on institution.
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We didn't have the same access the media did, but we had the same clues
I was a teenager when Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire were the Bash Brothers, and I knew then about the rumors swirling. I’m not saying we, the fans, were as culpable as the institutions of baseball (owners, players and media), but if we’re honest I think we can safely say we weren’t completely in the dark either. Even if we didn’t know 100% about the PED use of the 90s, we absolutely knew about amphetamine abuse by greats of the 60s and 70s, and we clearly said, “eh, no biggie”. We asked them to hit the ball harder and throw the ball faster, and our past behavior showed that we didn’t care how they did it, and they obliged. We enabled them.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
You specifically? Perhaps not.
But fandom as a whole played a part, again. It like condemning the media, there may have been lots of individual media who really were completely in the dark and had no inkling of steroid abuse, but when we speak of the media complicity, we are already implicitly talking about those who did know and either purposefully or subconsciously turned a blind eye.
And, if you want to play the strawman game, I’ll play, and say yes, if you allowed those who perpetrated Iran/Contra to go unpunished (by your voteand or voice to your elected representaive), then perhaps yes, you are somehow tangentially responsible. But then maybe you weren’t of voting age at that time, so again, I can only speculate on the strawman of a question you’re asking.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agreed
I’m completely anti-PED and believe the MLB banning and testing program were long overdue. But by the same token, we were all complicit in the dirtying of the game. We all cheered along as we turned a blind eye to the PED clues.
Nobody is gonna forget about the era it created, so we learn from it and move on, but persecuting the players who were a part of a culture that we, as fans, both celebrated and propagated is hypocritical.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Um, you said it yourself:
Amphetamine use was also against the law, but no one pees the bed about it.
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I don't think there are many, if any, saying either is "okay".
The question is how we now treat the era and players of the era.
Most everyone acknowledges that illicit steroid and amphetamine use in the sport are both wrong. Most everyone now wants them out of the game. But there are clear parallels on how players/owners/media used/condoned/ignored them during their peaks, but somehow they are being treated very differently in looking back. That’s where the logical disconnect happens.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
See, I disagree with this
I think that too many people I’ve met and debated the issue with do say that the amphetamines/steroids is okay*, because of the way that people treat the other (people don’t react as strongly, or at all, to amphetamines, so steroids should be okay, too). This is my biggest bone of contention with the whole issue, and why I weave in and out between the ‘pro’ and ‘anti’ side of the issue and the moralizing.
- I don’t think anyone condones illegal drug use, but treating it akin to no big deal in the grander context of baseball is probably more accurate.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I may be mistaken, but you seem to equate
the idea that:
steroid abuse and amephetamine abuse should be treated similarly historically
with the idea that:
both steroid and amphetamine use is ok
I see them as two completely disctinct and different propositions. I see lots of people arguing the former, very, very few people argue the latter.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Steroid and Amphetamine use is okay, there is nothing wrong with it
Just like gambling, it’s perfectly fine. However, they are both against the rules so players caught using should be punished according to the rules.
Agreed.
But there are people (at AA) who don’t see illegal drug use as wrong.
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Well, it's not wrong
And there is no logical defense that makes it wrong. You can go into the “It’s immoral because it’s illegal, it’s illegal because it’s immoral,” paradox, but I think we’re all too smart to fall for that one. And as long as what someone does to themselves doesn’t affect other people, how can it be wrong?
by Evan_S on Dec 22, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was in no way condoning the treatment of Bagwell (or possible treatment of Piazza).
The comments I was replying to were not about that. Instead they were about actual steroid users. This should have been clear. So stop it!
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A lot players break the law
Have you ever seen some of the rap sheets of HoF players? Domestic abuse, DWI, tax evasion, weapon possession, we’ve got some lynching, domestic terrorism etc etc
If sports writers really cared about players breaking the law, the HoF would have a lot more empty space in it.
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Why are so many people so quick to create a strawman?
For about the third time: I am not condoning the BWAA’s actions. Stop insinuating that I am. They are very clearly hypocrites.
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because that's what this post is about
and it’s what joma16’s post was about, and what goquakers and the following comments were referring to? So it’s an obvious conclusion to make when you respond to a thread specifically about the actions of the BWAA?
one does not simply walk into mordor...unless winter is coming
The comment I responded to was not about that.
It said that because it was not a documented rule, no biggie.
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There may not be a moral equivalency between doctoring baseballs and steroids
but what about the rampant amphetamine use in the 60s-70s, and coke use in the 80’s? There are undoubtably current HOF players who used “greenies” back in the day, illegal though they may have been. Why no moralizing and complaining about their induction to the HOF?
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Because the BWAA are hypocritical, clearly.
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I think the majority of people are in agreement on that.
I am talking about segment of the fanbase who moralizes along with these writers (not saying that you are one, just that the argument about logical consistancy carries over there too).
I feel like it’s the people who condemn the media as being too biased, but then tuning into FOXNews or MSNBC. You’re enabling the bias (the royal you, not you specifcally, Ogre).
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 21, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
The McGwire thing has always confused me
I think you had a lot of people, at that time, with a vested interest in not fully exploring the ramifications of the information burying their heads in the sand. How do you deal with a steroid-aided achievement involving a supplement existing outside of the regs?
One can also look at the post hoc demonization of McGwire as the result of a reflection on what it really meant in the context of what was going on all around baseball — that it’s when viewed in context that the implications become clear, and that that didn’t occur until later. That sounds a little too convenient.
My own reaction, if I can recall it, was to think “now what?” The record seemed tainted, but what could be d at the timeone about it? I was surprised that it was so easily dismissed, but so many people wanted the story to have a happy ending that they just ignored the warning signs. Happens in politics a lot these days, too. I guess HOF admission is one way of passing judgment on the act, but has all of the issues the post describes, and is a declaration of the entire career of a player as a fraud, made by people who have no business making such judgments.
Bravo
I completely agree. I have always said the PED witch hunt has been nothing but bullshit on so many levels.
If these self assumed “gatekeepers” were really doing their jobs, they would have called out the PED use while it was happening.
If we are going to hold them to the same standards as they hold the players, then no writer who was quiet about PEDs during the “steroid era” should be have a HoF ballot.
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How can you call someone a cheater for doing something that's not against the rules?
Fay Vincent issued a memo in 1991 “banning” steroids in 1991. It was pretty much a dead letter, without any mechanism for monitoring, policing or enforcing it. It was pretty clear at the time that the Commissioner’s office did not have the authority to make such a rule. In fact, neither Vincent nor the MLB owners had the power to issue such a rule without agreement from the MLBPA.
FYI, the memo “banning” steroids also “banned” the use of amphetamines which would eliminate 99% from HOF contention if BBWA was at all interested in consistency.
by Gary From The East End on Dec 20, 2011 5:34 PM EST reply actions
Great point about writers' hypocrisy
However…do you think it’d be fairer to say the writers wanted McGwire to confess to using banned substances (which he did not confess to in 1998)? There may be a legitimate case that andro is properly classified as a steroid. But there is no doubt that it was not a banned substance in baseball in 1998.
by Matt Vandermast on Dec 20, 2011 6:03 PM EST reply actions
Who votes for the MVP award?
There were always whispers about Canseco and other players, but no real thought that the game would be soiled by widespread PED use.
The same sportwriters who elected Ken Caminiti MVP are now balking at electing players to the HOF? C’mon.
If you didn’t know Caminiti was juicing in ‘96, then you don’t have the common sense G-d gave an oyster. He looked like Lou Ferrigno.
by hotspur on Dec 20, 2011 9:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Explain this then!:

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 20, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
painfully low standards in television
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by Donal on Dec 21, 2011 8:47 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Bravo.
Love this line:
Can we really take the chance of electing a writer to the Hall of Fame now, only to find out years later he knew about PEDs in baseball but said nothing until it was expedient to do so?
by Eric Simon on Dec 20, 2011 9:48 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Or what if Joe Buck is elected?
Whether or not he knew about steroids, we can’t let that happen.
by tmu on Dec 20, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The shoe will be on the other foot!
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by blueandorange4life on Dec 20, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Writers & broadcasters
Technically, they’re not IN the Hall of Fame, and they don’t get elected. There is no “writers’ wing” or “broadcasters’ wing.” They merely win awards. In fact, they receive their awards and make their speeches on a different day, not on the Sunday when the players are inducted. But that’s semantics. I agree with your points. Great post!
I do believe reporters had suspicions or even proof back then; and their now-outrage is misplaced...
The “outrage” has been bastardized into the “use of steriods” is bad argument. The outrage or surprise is/should be how steriods can affect the record books. That was apparently the effect; steriods do add power in a surprising manner. But I think reporters didn’t expect it to be so dramatic. Recall, back, back in the day, working out was considered not useful or even damaging to performance. So these reporters likely thought it was a futile attempt by those suspected using-players as a waste of time. Now in retrospect we can clearly see, steriods have an effect.
The reporters have egg on their face, IMO, not for failing to be outraged by the likely suspected use of steriods, but for the now-silly belief that working out and muscle was less important to baseball than say stretching.
On a side note, this steriod period of time was also the growth of “moneyball” style and the question as to what is really important. Just like Bean was facing the old school scouts evaluation, I think old school reporters were doubting the ultimate effect of steriods as just frivilous drug use. Some people really believed grission was the key to great play. Moneyball tries to explain grission with stats. Steriods is apparently another version of secret grission. But those reporters thought grission was truly mythical, legendary god given stuff.
Interesting take, and it kinda makes sense.
I wouldn’t be surprised if theres quite a lot of truth to this theory.
by SoCal Metfan on Dec 22, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. Don't get me started on HGH.
How much of the hall of fame is composed of career compilers who just managed to stay healthy. Now players, even with unspectacular single season numbers but who happened to never get really injured or breakdown, come in doubt.
by CervezaVerde on Dec 23, 2011 5:42 AM EST up reply actions

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