Ex Post Reyes: What This Means for the Mets Future
(Bumped from FanPosts. --Eric)
---
Jose Reyes is a Marlin. And there's nothing the Mets could have done about it.
Even if Sandy Alderson thought meeting/topping the Marlins offer was a good baseball decision, he all but admitted what we all know anyway -- the Mets (or, perhaps more accurately, the Wilpons) couldn't afford to make that kind of offer. At present, it's a strange, sad tale, reflecting terribly on this team's ownership and former front office personnel. But what does it mean for the future? Here are some thoughts.
1) The Mets won't be competitive for at least two more seasons -- and likely more.
The team obviously won't be much of a contender come Opening Day, 2012. So that's one season. I was hopeful for 2013 -- the extra wild card, the beginning of the Phillies decline, and the emergence of our young pitching prospects lent hopes. But that's basically gone now.
While all three of those supporting reasons are still true, two things no longer are. First, the Mets won't have Reyes, and it's not clear that they can fill that production elsewhere any time soon. Second, while the Phillies will be declining, they'll still be good -- and the Braves may be good, the Nationals may be too, and now the Hanley/Reyes/LoMo Marlins (who are still looking to spend more!)... yikes.
If there's a silver lining here, it's that Alderson can now make moves to restore financial sanity to the team without having to worry about boobirds complaining that he's not in it to win it. However:
2) The Mets financial state is going to get worse. Maybe much worse.
Alderson noted that the team lost $70 million, although over what time period (last year? the last 3 years? fifteen minutes ago in a stupid bender in Atlantic City?) was unstated. Either way, this money is independent of any Madoff losses, which haven't been incurred yet as the team hasn't yet been subjected to a successful clawback action.
Now that the Mets are clearly not a very good team, and that there isn't even Jose Reyes to come and watch play, the Mets revenues may take another hit. While Alderson is going to do a good job in lowering payroll, he's probably coming close to his lower limit given the Bay and Santana (and Wright) contracts. The Mets fiscal condition simply is not going to get better by cutting costs alone.
To make matters worse, the team is probably already insolvent. Even if only $20 million of the budget shortfall was last year (and it was probably much more), consider this: (a) the team is already running a huge loss to due lower than typical revenues; (b) and even before that, they took out an emergency loan from the league (c) which they recently requested an extension on paying back; (d) efforts to sell a part of the team fell flat mostly due to lack of interest from buyers, even though the asset has a huge consumption value even from partial ownership; (e) and now, the team is looking to add even more debt through a strange "friends and family" offering. If this were the Dodgers or the Rangers, it's pretty clear that Bud Selig would have forced a sale and/or bankruptcy.
Insolvency (or the brink thereof) plus a lower revenue forecast typically leads to some sort of restructuring, but form some reason, Selig isn't making that happen. The solution seems to be Alderson, but again, there are limits to what he can do. I wonder how long MLB allows this to continue, and fear that as it does, things get worse, not better.
Why worse? Because today feels like an inflection point -- the point where less die-hard fans stop caring because hope is so hard to see. At some point, you start losing fans beyond repair. (Why am I going to spend $100+++ to take my six and four year old to a Mets game this year? And if they don't go to Mets games now, how will I get them to go in three years? Five years?) The team's value -- not their revenue, but the enterprise value -- is beginning to erode quickly.
3) What happens to David Wright?
David Wright won't be traded this off-season -- but only because losing him while also losing Reyes (in division, at that) would tank revenues entirely. First, there's the face of the franchise aspect. But also, the Mets are hoping, somewhat, that Wright (and Bay?) rebound with the new walls, adding some spark to an otherwise extinguished team. Combined with Ike Davis, the two (three?) could be a formidable tandem producing dramatic homers from a club which in recent years has seen few of those.
But Wright is going to earn $16m in 2013. And the Mets aren't going to be good then, either. To make matters worse, Wright will probably get a contract similar to Reyes' when he hits free agency, and with his defense already in massive decline, he clearly won't be worth it to a team which is likely on the fringes of being competitive (at best) in 2014.
The fan reaction from the Reyes loss -- "why didn't you trade him?" -- is both expected and incorrect. If the team had traded Reyes at the deadline (or before, when he was healthy), fans would have been outraged. Doubly so if he had signed for $90/5 with another team, which was at least a reasonable possibility at the time. But now, Alderson can use this reaction to soften a Wright trade: "We don't want to have another situation like we had with Reyes." Simple.
I expect David to be traded sometime after the Mets exercise their option.
4) How long can we wait for the new core?
Reyes is gone, and I believe that Wright is out the door soon -- but even if I'm wrong, he's also now the face of the old guard. I kind of find it poetic that Reyes leaves the Mets on the same weekend that Pedro Martinez makes his retirement official, because in 2005, I saw the Mets as Pedro, Beltan, Wright, and Reyes -- even though Mike Piazza still called Shea home. I realize that Piazza was a shell of his former self by that point, but I can't help but feel like Wright will be playing that role in 2013, a ghost of Mets teams past.
That is, if 2013 sees an emergence of a new core. Ike Davis is already here, and if he's healthy -- I cannot believe we already need that caveat! -- that's great. Who else becomes a pillar is anyone's guess. Maybe Reese Havens stays healthy (!) or Lucas Duda becomes a 40 homer threat. Of Wheeler and Harvey and Mejia and Familia, hopefully two stick. With peripheral players like Daniel Murphy (if he can play second) and Ruben Tejada and Jon Niese and an hopefully ageless RA Dickey, maybe it's not so bad.
But unfortunately, that's not the Mets of 2012. The 2012 Mets are Wright, of course, but Bay and Santana and Pelfrey and Pagan (for whom hope wains). And that is probably what we'll see in 2013, give or take, as well. The new core is probably two years out, not one, and that transitional year may be tougher than we're prepared for.
And that scares me.
5) Will the Mets make a Vince Coleman mistake?
And that's why.
When Darryl Strawberry left after the 1990 season, it wasn't about the money as much as it was ego -- I think most of us (if were were old enough to remember, and i barely was) expected him to leave even if the Mets matched the top offer out there. Reyes is different, of course -- you have the feeling that he would have stayed, but the Marlins gave him 20 million or so reasons to move.
The Mets' idea of a make-good here was Vince Coleman, and it was the first of many disasters. I'll not recount it; it's simply too painful to have to dig up repressed memories. And while the Mets won't do that this year, and they probably won't next year, they may the year after, with Young Guns 2.0 coming in and David Wright potentially going out. I doubt it -- for a lot of reasons (they won't have the money and they hopefully will have Sandy Alderson still), but fear is hard to shake.
So, in summary, we're in Hell?
No, we're not. It definitely fees like it today, but this is merely Purgatory. If the fears above become true, yeah. Hell. But there is certainly a chance at redemption -- many, in fact. Perhaps the new fences and a ton of luck may Davis, Duda, and Wright a 100 homer tandem (and for a ton more luck, include Bay and another 30). Maybe the Mets magically regain fiscal solvency while retaining the cool head of Alderson; or maybe Selig finally forces a sale. Perhaps Pagan and Murphy battle it out for a batting title while Tejada and Josh Thole become above-average regulars. Maybe all four of the Young Guns 2.0 become solid-at-worst MLB starts with a true #1 in there, too. Maybe.
But getting there, either way, is going to hurt.
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
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You know what;s wrong with the Mets. The Wilpons.
by bob c on Dec 5, 2011 10:22 AM EST reply actions 14 recs
Rec'd.
In a nutshell.
And IMO, they’ll drag this out trying to hold onto the team, when in the end I really do believe they’ll lose. Yeah, it’s their money and they have every right to try and hold on but it’s at the fans expense. The same fans that with revenues, will make or break their ability to hold on.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Welcome to the Emerald City
of Recapopulis
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
SM Sandy, are you a wizard?
Sandy obviously replied “I dunno, maybe vampire or something”
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Shoulda been "Recapopolis"
I’m picky abotu weird sh*t like that.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm working out of one of their buildings ...
I plan on flushing the toilet a lot, using up morre toilet paper than I should and when I wash my hands, I’m gonna let the hot water run a realllllly long time. That’ll show ’em.
Fred and Jeff Wilpon = The Asses of Evil
by brooklynlou on Dec 8, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If you trade Wright
the whole fanbase is going to leave. That doesn’t show me, as a fan, that this team is committed to winning. How can I support a team who doesn’t have that commitment in return? Trading a player who is still one of the top third basemen in the game, a five time All-Star, for a few of the proverbial magic beans we call prospects is short-sighted and will push the franchise back an indescribable amount of years. The money coming off the books in the next year or two should be enough to give Wright an extension, and build around him and Davis offensively, with Murphy, Duda, and Murphy as good complementary pieces. It is inexcusable for this franchise, in the large market like it is, to play like a small market team. Reyes leaving, although I am bitter about it, I understand. However, Wright is part of the solution, not the problem, and you are making the team as a whole worse both in the short and long term if you trade him.
Hate to break it to you but
there is no money coming off the books in the next year. In fact, they’re basically on the hook for more money next year. Wright’s option gives him an extra million, Bay gets another 16 million and Santana gets a 1.5 million dollar raise. Not only that, but Jon Niese, Bobby Parnell, Daniel Murphy and possibly Ike Davis and Josh Thole (if those two reach Super Two status) are all eligible for arbitration for the first time. Not to mention potentially another arbitration year of Mike Pelfrey, if they choose, as well as Manny Acosta.
No money comes off the books until before the 2014 season at the earliest and that’s if Bay and Santana’s contract options don’t turn into vests.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 5, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I'm almost at wit's end with my fandom.
Even in a losing season, I’ll support the team if I feel that the team/ownership is trying to win. That is nothing against the players at all, I love Ike, Dickey, Wright, Murphy, etc. But I find that it is unreasonable to be a fan of a team that is not committed to that purpose. I can tolerate losing Jose Reyes, because I do truly believe in Alderson and his stated long term vision/goal. Jose Reyes was overpaid by the Marlins and was risky on a long term deal. A risk I would have taken (I would have stretched to six years), but understandable enough to sit out on. But we as Mets fans have taken such a pounding from our peers/friends/colleagues over the years, and I’m sick of it. The Wilpons need to go in order to make this franchise viable again. I am a fan still. But trading David Wright will give the team an irrevocable public relations disaster, a huge monetary hit from merchandise and ticket sales, and a massive performance dropoff that will unable to be regained. A large market team such as the Mets have no excuse to trade their star, homegrown players due to monetary concerns.
I have been a Met fan my whole life; my whole family has. I’m currently a sophomore at Boston College, and I guess you can say that Boston is my adopted town. But if the unthinkable happens, I’ll put all my Mets stuff in a box in a closet somewhere and jump ship to the Red Sox. I’m sorry, but my fanship has its limits (although pretty generous ones). All I ask is a commitment to winning. Trading Wright will tell me that the team doesn’t care about winning, long term goals, etc. and with that, I would be officially through.
I know I might be ranting, and I’m sorry I wrote a ton, but I know that the majority of the fanbase is with me on this.
The wilpons don't care about winning and never will
It’s about them holding onto this team at all costs. Dragging the team down with them.
If the Wilpons come to their senses and sell
I’ll be a happy guy. I think if we do a letter writing campaign of some sort to the Wilpons expressing our feelings, and also giving copies to the press, it could be effective.
That's not entirely fair
I’m sure the Wilpons want to win, they’re just incapable.
Astro Travellin'
by BlackOps on Dec 5, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Agreed
You can’t say they don’t want to win when they throw over $100M out for payroll every year. The unfortunate thing is they let retreads like Phillips, Duquette, and Minaya spend it for them. The other unfortunate thing is that this team still has the talent to be a winning baseball team, they just have not been able to keep the best players on the field for a whole season. All it will take is one good winning streak and for the team to be in contention in the division for a month or two and people will be saying “Jose who?” Winning is the best cure-all
.
All it will take is one good winning streak and for the team to be in contention in the division for a month or two and people will be saying "Jose who?"
And those people will be stupid because there is no way this is a contending roster unless the rest of the NL East literally doesn’t exist anymore.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
You said you were going to stop following the Mets
when Reyes was gone…what happened to that? These comments are like morbid MMO dreck.
"Amazing strength, amazing power - he can grind the dust out of the bat. He will be great, super even wonderful. Now, if he can only learn to catch a fly ball."
-Casey Stengel on Lucas Duda
We finished in 4th with Reyes. How are we going to do better without him with our financial situation?
MMO’ers would call Alderson cheap and retarded while simultaneously calling Reyes a non-winner. I’m not doing that. I might be pessimistic as hell, but there’s not a whole lot of reasons not to be.
And I said I would stop supporting them (giving them my money).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
These comments are just ridiculously annoying
and you’re posting them everywhere. I’m sure if everyone didn’t know you’re pissed, they do now.
"Amazing strength, amazing power - he can grind the dust out of the bat. He will be great, super even wonderful. Now, if he can only learn to catch a fly ball."
-Casey Stengel on Lucas Duda
Don't act like things are completely static.
Young players improve, especially as they play more in the majors. I’m sort of in agreement that this team doesn’t match up to the Phils, Braves, Marlins and possibly the Nats at this point but I really don’t think they’re going to be dreadfully awful like some are insinuating. There’s talent here and there’s hope for the future. You want to see a dreadful, hopeless situation? Take a look at the Houston Astros. No major league talent and a minor league system that contains Jonathan Singleton, Jarred Cosart, George Springer and a heap of trash.
That’s not the Mets. You can be pessimistic about 2012 but there’s a LOT worse out there. This team isn’t going to lose 100 games or even 90. I can tell you that right now.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 6, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Easy
We’re going to do better with an improved bullpen, better starting pitching, full seasons of Ike Davis and David Wright, better defense, improving young players, and a little luck. One player does not make a team, and this team has had three straight seasons where a lot of things have not broken in their favor. Reyes’ individual season was about the only thing that did go right for us last year.
by crazycarLUXC on Dec 7, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
SP is not better and full healthy seasons are not a guarantee
Ray Ramirez guarantees someone will break
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
SP might be better if Johan pitches better than Cap did
and it might keep getting better if Familia and/or Harvey get promoted to the Mets during the season.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Would you be opposed to seeing Harvey
in the rotation coming out of ST? Cuz I’m not. I think getting Harveys feet wet sooner rather than later could really help. Meaning no Gee(or possibly no Pelf) in the rotation.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Dec 7, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
No way. We have a bad track record of rushing our prospects.
We should let them develop in the minors until they are ready, much like the Rays do. We are not in that phase of the win curve that would warrant pushing Harvey. He is not going to make up for the difference between our current state of affairs and the postseason.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I didnt mean Harvey in the rotation would boost
the Mets to the post season. Only asking if he blows away ST and dominates, why not let him join the rotation?
by SFloridaMetsFan on Dec 7, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Mejia blew away in ST. Hairston was KoST.
Harvey has less than 60 innings above AA.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
by Michkin on Dec 7, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd like to see Gee and Pelfrey improve on their 2011 seasons
and then trade at least one as soon as Familia and/or Harvey are deemed ready. That should be sometime between the all-star break and final trading deadline.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Pelf has been extremely consistent, xFIP wise (4.4-4.5), from 2008-11.
We shouldn’t expect any significant improvement from him. At the most, some HR/BABIP luck and shinny ERA can fool a few GMs.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Good thing we're not moving the walls in or anything
Oh, right.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
We need a stud CF who can climb walls and rob some HR.
We should move Ike to CF.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Or Chris Young
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Ike should catch
Inexperienced 6’4" southpaw catchers are the new market inefficiency.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
A little bit of luck is all it takes

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Johan?
JOHAN?

Seriously, anything from Johan is the gravy that you put on the gravy.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have to agree here.
Historically, those trying to return from this type surgery take at least 2 years – if ever – and aren’t that effective.
If anyone can do it, it’s Johan but I’m not holding my breath. Which is why we need to get more for SP depth.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Shoulder injury is serious business.
In similar cases, pitchers took +2 years to recover and they never returned the same.
Also, image FAIL.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I can't see it.
When I try to open only the image, it says “No data received”.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I don't even see an image to open
must be the differences in browsers.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
All Johan has to do is outperform what Cap did in 2011
Being better than 1.6 fWAR is really not unrealistic.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
He would have to pitch +100IP at about 3.5 FIP (same 2008/10 performance) to get that.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
It's possible
Reports are that his fastball was around 89 at the end of last season. If he can pick it up a few ticks, I’d bet on Johan getting over 1.6 fWAR this season.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
MMmmmm..
Gravy on gravy…..
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I don't want to blow your mind or nothin, but
. . . .bacon.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Bacon covered with bacon-wrapped gravy?
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Thats an idea....
It may be cheaper option to order a hit on the entire NL East. Maybe the Wilpons have some friends in Jersey that can help ..
I Hate the Wilpons But This Isn't Fair or Right
They spend tons of money ($140 million last yr). They just do it badly and incompetent at running a baseball team. Big difference b/w this and not caring.
I'd prefer they not care
Then they might sell instead of identifying with the team as a “family business.”
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Two years in Boston and its your adopted hometown?
You"re a New Yorker and you’re gonna go support a Boston team? Good riddance then.
by chakrabs on Dec 7, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Can't root for another team
If Wright is gone, I’d probably just not follow baseball at all for a while.
the team already expressed its lack of committment to winning
when they let Reyes go to the Marlins. This team is in full rebuild mode, and Wright doesn’t appear to be a part of the future when the Mets become relevant again.
by secret defense on Dec 5, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cant call it a lack of committment to winning
when they let Reyes go because they couldnt match the offer since the Mets are broke. More like a lack of brain cells for letting it get this bad.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Dec 7, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Great post.
The only thing I don’t necessarily agree with is that Jose would have stayed if we matched. I’m not so sure. Part of me thinks he wanted something new and shiny. Yes he loved NY but the drama of the Mets may have started to get him to say "Why bother . . . " Of course there’s going to be drama/disappointments in Miami as well, but when you’ve got the itch for something new you never see that until it’s too late. Otherwise no one would buy a new car until their old one conked out.
i often suspected Jose was sick of the NY media
They treated him like poo during his time here, and only seemed to value him once he became a FA.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Like the really funny uncle with a healthy bourbon habit who matches every brilliant Thanksgiving story with one or two ill-advised racist jokes or boob grabs, we’re stuck with Melo. So we might as well learn to love him — quirks and all. http://knickerblogger.net/2011-report-card-carmelo-anthony/
We're in Purgatory
That sums things up nicely. We don’t outright suck like the Pirates. We aren’t actually any good. We don’t know which way is up, and the car really can’t get moving until things get figured out.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 5, 2011 1:41 PM EST reply actions
you typed the words right out from under me BDMF....we're in Limbo
thanks to Selig,the Wilpons and Minaya.
I think, unfortunately, you HAVE to trade Wright at this point before he leaves for nothing. I hate to say this, though I half-jokingly did so in my version of AAOP.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I think so too, provided you can get a good haul for him.
I’ve been firmly against dealing David and letting Jose go but now that Jose’s gone and it’s pretty obvious this team is out of money, it’s probably best to divest of all of the expensive assets and bring in as many talented young prospects as possible. Unless there’s a radical change in this club’s finances (ownership), I don’t see this team re-upping with David Wright when he’s a free agent after 2013. Considering his age, injury history and up/down performance the past 3 years, he’s nearly as risky a proposition as Reyes.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 5, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
agree also on trading Wright
maybe he has a decent first half and we move him at the deadline. He’s not part of the future. Were going to be rebuilding and I love him so much it’s not fair to him to go through these dark times. Trade him to a contender and best of luck to him for ringzzz.
If Wright is performing at an elite level again, he should be kept
That’s not the type of player that can easily be replaced. Also, losing him will result in the loss of even more revenue, so it is not like shipping out Wright will necessarily save money.
About his age, he is not that old. He is in his prime.
His injury history? He really doesn’t have much of one.
The performance of the last three years is a critical concern. That’s why I want to see how he is performing before we think about shipping him out.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
It doesn't matter if he rebounds or not
Wilpons are not going to throw a high multi yr contract at Wright when he’s a FA. Face it Bay has cost us Reyes and Wright.
Well,
Omar has, maybe. It’s not Bay’s fault he was offered a mondo-sized and mongo-conceived contract
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "
– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf
It absolutely does matter
This is basic economics. Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Principles of Microeconomics!!
:)
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
If only the Wilpons were aware of this...
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
You're wrong there.
Bay cost us Reyes. Maybe. He wont cost us Wright since he’s coming off the books when Wright hits the market. All the Mets need to do is make sure that stupid vest doesnt happen.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Dec 7, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
I think we suck. 77 wins last year and now we lost our best player.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
by Ogre39666 on Dec 5, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
77 wins is four away from .500
That is not sucking.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 5, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Only 15 away from 90
Just 15 more 9th inning Dudabombs
"Amazing strength, amazing power - he can grind the dust out of the bat. He will be great, super even wonderful. Now, if he can only learn to catch a fly ball."
-Casey Stengel on Lucas Duda
by piazza62 on Dec 5, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And now subtract Reyes from that.
That’s sucking.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Mitigated by whatever moves are made
And, obviously, tallying up next year’s stats.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 5, 2011 8:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And Capps just signed with Minnesota.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Round Trip Journey
I feel like we’ve been on a long circular journey that has taken us back to 1992.
"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner
Read the Minor League Posts
Read the minor league posts and root for St. Lucie or Savannah! (Buffalo and Binghampton were lousy last year and will be lousy this year.)
OK, it's been 24 hours
I’ve had enough of the Reyes shit.
He made the right decision for him. Good.
Fuck the Wilpons.
Next
One day, this team is going to kill me.
by fxcarden on Dec 5, 2011 6:35 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
RAmen
rec’d
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "
– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf
Best post I've seen today.
I hated losing him but we did. Time to move on.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It hurts . . . it hurts good
C’mon, we’re Mets fans. We are prepared for this. Me and my latent masochism can’t wait to cross our fingers and watch the team struggle against its formidable division opponents in 2012. Anyway, as you allude to, there are some interesting lights flickering at the end of this tunnel.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "
– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf
nobody ever got anywhere in life by not being delusional, fx
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "
– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf
You Absolutely Nailed It
We’re looking at 2015 if they don’t do anything stupid. And who is to say they won’t?
We are the Washington Redskins of baseball
Though we at least have more competent people at the helm than the Shanallahans, we’re basically at the same level. We’re not even bad enough to be of note – just a high-payroll mediocrity.
by dcmetsfan on Dec 7, 2011 12:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think it's absolutely ridiculous to write off anything more than one year in advance.
There are too many variables in this game. That said, the sooner we reach a nadir that forces the Wilpons out, the better.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 12:23 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
Also, I can see the Mets contending in 2013. And if, by some miracle, there are no injuries and several players have career years, we could even contend in 2012, however unlikely.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
I don't think anyone's writing off any season
Just saying realistically we have no shot at competing for the next two years minimum. Especially given the way the other teams in our division are heading.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know how you define "writing off"
but the body of your post does a fair job.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
I took your comment as saying that no one should say that there is an absolute zero chance of the Mets being relevant for the next two seasons as there are too many variables that can fall in the Mets favor. My point was that realistically while the chances are never zero, they are very close to zero given the way the NL East is shaping up. However, you seem to think that it is a realistic view that the Mets can contend in 2013? Please explain.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Hate to be weasely, but
it depends. I’m saying that it’s way too early to tell. NO, the smart money is not on us contending (but of course, this would be equally true had we inked Reyes.)
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Darryl...
I remember clearly…Darryl was a goner…he wanted to go ‘home’ to LA & play with his childhood friend, Eric Davis…it was the beginning of the end for both their shining careers!
Darryl recently said his biggest mistake in his career was leaving the Mets! I believe that is the truth!!!
The Ego issue was more a problem with the Mets front office at the time…not Daryl’s ego!
He also wanted to go home
and play in a big sandbox full of coke. Such a waste. Good to see he’s put his life back together.
I Was Prepared For This A Year Ago
Ever since the dual collapses of 2007-08, I have felt the Mets needed to bite the bullet and retool/rebuild. The unwillingness to do so has provided the fan base with mediocrity for the past 3 seasons (and a host of bad contracts). If the Mets has started the process in 2009, they could have done it around Wright and Reyes and be a strong contender by now.
So now the process has really begun.
I am much less concerned about offense than pitching. If Wright, Davis and Murphy play a good number of games next year I think the Mets will score enough runs. And bats can be found. The problem remains PITCHING.
And this is my frustration with this franchise over the last 20 yrs – they can’t put together a really good, strong pitching staff. The 2000 team had decent starting pitching in Leiter, Hampton and Reed coupled with a strong pen (Benitez pressure issues aside). But it wasn’t an elite staff like the 90s Yankees/Braves or 80s Mets had. The 2006 staff was highly mediocre and generally old. THe Mets caught some breaks with Ollie and Maine but it really wasn’t a championship staff.
And this where I am encouraged by the direction of the Alderson Mets. He is stockpiling young arms. The Mets did the same thing in the 1980s. This is important b/c pitching is always in demand. In the 1980s, the Mets kept the ones they wanted and traded the other ones to get players they needed. Pitchers were a key part of landing Hernandez and Carter. Similarly the Braves set about rebuilding in the late 1980s, they picked pitchers in the first round 4 yrs in a row and netted guys like Glavine, Steve Avery (briefly a star) and Kent Merker (useful part), etc. They also stole Smoltz from the Tigers for Doyle Alexander.
I guess my point is a strong farm system makes a lot of possible and I see one of the keys to a strong farm system as having as many good young arms as possible. It appears that Alderson is following this path but there is no doubt the next few yrs are going to be rough.
by millsy on Dec 7, 2011 1:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Dude, I'm seriously depressed.
Anyway you look at it, losing Reyes retards our timeline one to two years. The Mets probably were not going to make the playoffs in 2012 anyway, but you could envision Reyes with the further development of the young core producing 85 wins. It felt like the team would be legitimately ready by 2013. Now, I just don’t know. It’s hard to imagine 2012 being better than 2011. A team can contend with a payroll of 90 mil., but not when 40 mil. is tied up to two underperforming, rapidly aging, players (Bay and Santana). That pretty much makes contending in 2013 unrealistic as well. We sure as hell better be ready by 2014, because Niese and Ike Davis will be entering their arbitration years. We will know when we are totally fucked when we start trading the core 2.0 to strengthen the farm. How’s that for pessimism?
Replace "losing Reyes" with "having the Wilpons"
and “one to two years” with “indefinitely” and I’m 100% on board.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
For a while, when I wear my Mets hat, and I see someone else in a Mets hat, I’ll look at them, nod my head, and know that we are followers of a team that although might be in a bad era, our dedication to them makes us some of the best fans in baseball.
And although the other person might see me nodding at them with my big head and small hat (no hats seem to fit me. My head is very big) and get creeped out, that’s ok, cause I will assume that they feel the same way. And I’ll be proud of the memories and hopes for a brighter future.
Part of me likes a bad / rebuilding team more, because as I tell my yankee fan friends, it’s fu**ing easy to root for the winner. Try rooting for a team that struggles, that builds, that scratches and claws for every win.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
Bart Scott: "I’m sure now there will be something written about how the Jets are back, and we won’t listen to that either, because at the end of the day we know that you guys don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."
less Diehard fans stop caring - how about every single fan?
I believe every fan in the fan base (diehard or less diehard) should just use every single $ they spend and every media and communication outlet available to pressure MLB to get rid of this ownership.
I wish I knew how we could put real pressure on the Wilpons immediately? How about an immediate boycott of any ticket purchases for 2012 from the day Jose left going forward. I for one aint buying any.
And flood the NY Mets official sites to put the WIlpons on notice…
Come on – this article says we have nothing to lose – I ain’t waiting til 2014…
I disagree with the entire premise that they couldn't afford Reyes
If you don’t sign Rauch (dumb signing, not worth it) and punt Pelfrey, that is 8.5 million right there towards Reyes’ salary. They absolutely could have afforded him. They are saying they couldn’t afford him, because they are full of shit.
Dude they're broke
Mets = Wilpons
Wilpons = Broke
How broke are the Wilpons?
1 – No bank will touch them
2 – As a private company, the Mets books are pretty tightly sealed
3 – The friendly neighborhood loan shark … er hedge fund … asked to see their books and asked for 30% vig … er, interest, cause they don’t have enough collateral
4 – They’re having a tough time convincing their own family to lend them any money.
5 – The lawyers want to claw back a billion from them
Selig should of yanked the team away from them last season. Either the Wilpons have a picture of Selig with a goat or their books are borderline criminal and potentially a huge embarassment to baseball thats its better to leave the Wilpons in.
Wilpons = Broke
You exagerate a bit, but that’s the deal. The Wilpons are debt mongers, they expanded by borrowing to the hilt, and planned to pay back by making the vig off of their Madoff “investments” and asset appreciation. Well Madoff stopped making return for them and instead will now cost them big time claw back, and asset appreciation? a sick joke. The Wilpons are dead broke, but they can’t even sell the Mets or SNY right now because whatever they make will just go to the Madoff victims, the proceeds wil be an easy target for the Trustee. So they play for time, and torture Met fans. The sick joke is on us.
by pegleg52 on Dec 7, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually I Think Their Corp Structure May Have Something To Do With This Too
b/c it is my understanding the Mets are owned by Serling Enterprises and this is one of the entities in the Madoff suit. I am not a lawyer but this has to complicate things immensly for MLB and any potential buyer.
Also I am not sure what Selig’s options are here (would love to understand MLB rules better). The Dodgers are a unique situation since you have a husband/wife co-ownership and management. The Rangers became wards of MLB after Tom Hicks declared bankruptcy as did the Orioles in 1992 when Eli Jacobs declared bankruptcy. An aside, the Os bankruptcy resulted in Peter Angelos buying them and he is a worse owner than the Wilpons as hard as that is to believe.
Wilpons/Sterling Broke- same result
I think we’re all on the same page here. Baseball put Alderson in charge of the Mets to insure the Wilpons didn’t go McCourt and ruin National League baseball in NYC forever. When the hammer drops and the Wilpons pay the Madoff Trustee, Sterling Enterprises will default the loans declare bankruptcy, the Mets and SNY will be put up for sale, JP Morgan gets their loan money back, the Wilpons get whatever is left. Baseball in gratitude makes Alderson CEO for the next figurehead Commissioner and he runs baseball and makes sure debt mongers like the Wilpons never own a team again.
As Much As I Hate Selig
We can thank him for Alderson.
And I totally agree with the analysis below about Selig and contraction. Getting rid of the Twins was all about saving his Brewers.
Dodger fan here
IMO, the McCourt situation is different because of Selig’s personal relationship with the Wilpons, contrasted with his personal hostility towards McCourt. Unfortunately, it’s that simple. You can look up as many of MLB rules as there are, but you needn’t look further to when there was talk of contraction, he threatened the Minnesota Twins, instead of his own Milwaukee Brewers, even though the Twins were a far more viable franchise at the time. He has done things like this over and over again, with his stock excuses (“My baseball people tell me that…”). You can probably tell I’m not a fan of his.
Honestly, though, who even knows if and when McCourt actually will leave, as he’s making life as miserable as possible on his (alleged) way out for everyone, including Buddy. As for the Mets, this is (allegedly) Selig’s last year. Hopefully, the Mets can get a real owner, as soon as baseball gets a real commissioner. In the meantime, my condolences for all of you. I’m originally from Suffolk County, and I try to go to a Mets game every year.
by sarcastro9 on Dec 7, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Dodgers and Selig
Mostly agree, except for a few things. Right now where the Mets are is similar to when the McCourt divorce was being litigated and there was a question of whether the Dodgers were marital property or not. Until that was resolved, there could be no sale. You’re right Selig is treating the Wilpons differently, he gave them the loan and more time to pay back, but ultimately he made them take Alderson to keep them from raping the franchise. So i guess the big diffference is letting the Wilpons save face, and embarassing McCourt, but in the end, the result will be the same, McCourt and the Wilpons will be out. The owners are very concerned that 3 of 4 of the NL’s most important franchises are in dissarray; they are luck that the 4th won the WS by some baseball miracle.
Thanks.
This is very helpful. I know both the Rangers and Orioles were already in bankruptcy b/f MLB stepped in. I have heard Selig basically forced the Dodgers into bankruptcy and that they were already there when MLB stepped in.
I hat Selig and the Wilpons and would love both gone. I do hope whoever the eventual new owner is they keep Alderson and crew b/c they know what they are doing.
They are so broke
they just shelled out 9.5 million (+ whatever Ramirez is making) in guaranteed contracts within the last 24 hours. That’s not that broke…
Plus,
Rauch’s contract has incentives that can earn him more.
It's always the Debt..
David there is a wealth of public information available on Wilpon/Sterling debt. Check it out; they have negative cashflow, and impossible debt. They are insolvent and bankrupt everyway except for the actual filing, which they will make after they pay Picard. It just…. is….
Yup…..
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
As a Met owner actually stated in the early 70's (Linda DeRoulet) when facing a financial crisis.
(Why do the fans get to keep all the foul balls).When Doubleday and Wilpon rode into town like White Knights to save the franchise from bankruptcy they were heroes to New York and Met fans.How times have changed!
The next Met Jersey any sain fan will be buying
is Brando Nimmo.
Are there any Johnny Sain fans around anymore?
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 7, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Again, This Guy Nailed It
Two points. First, on WFAN Alderson said he hoped that fans would think the team was moving in the direction of becoming the type of team that could keep a popular home growth star player his whole career. He could say that after one player like Reyes left. Not after failing to have a single player like that in 50 years.
We are the Houston Astros? Biggio, Bagwell, Jose Cruz, just to name a few.
Second, the Mets need to be honest about the deep rebuilding. That is the only way it has a chance to work.
Two things
1) Whatever happened to Tom Seaver, Darryl Strawberry, or Jerry Koosman years and years before he showed up can’t be his concern.
2) Honest to who? It doesn’t matter what the fans think/want/know, it just matters that they’re getting it done.
SELL THE METS
But Just Among Us, Like The Man Said, 2014 at the Earliest, 2015 More Likely
And as for the Bay vest, I don’t care if he has 35 HRs, unless the Mets are within four games of the playoffs, he rides the pine in September. They can have F-Mart limp around out there for a month.
It doesn’t matter what the fans think/want/know, it just matters that they’re getting it done.
I relied to that.
As for number one, they can’t expect Met fans to expect that the next “core” will stick around given the history. They should start selling jerseys with the number 0 and the name “whoever.” If you don’t want to buy it, you’re not a Mets fan.
It has begun. . . .
Reyes: “they didn’t make a serious offer. So, that means they didn’t want me there.”
Well, erm, sure, buddy.
Fantastic Post!
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
We're in hell right now, gentleman
Believe me. And, we can stay here, get the shit kicked out of us, or we can fight our way back into the light. We can climb outta hell… one inch at a time. Now I can’t do it for ya, I’m too old. I look around, I see these young faces and I think, I mean, I’ve made every wrong choice a middle-aged man can make. I, uh, I’ve pissed away all my money, believe it or not. I chased off anyone who’s ever loved me. And lately, I can’t even stand the face I see in the mirror. You know, when you get old, in life, things get taken from you. I mean, that’s… that’s… that’s a part of life. But, you only learn that when you start losin’ stuff. You find out life’s this game of inches, so is baseball. Because in either game – life or baseball- the margin for error is so small. I mean, one half a step too late or too early and you don’t quite make it. One half second too slow, too fast and you don’t quite catch it. The inches we need are everywhere around us. They’re in every break of the game, every minute, every second. On this team we fight for that inch. On this team we tear ourselves and everyone else around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Because we know when add up all those inches, that’s gonna make the fucking difference between winning and losing! Between living and dying! I’ll tell you this, in any fight it’s the guy whose willing to die whose gonna win that inch. And I know, if I’m gonna have any life anymore it’s because I’m still willing to fight and die for that inch, because that’s what living is, the six inches in front of your face. Now I can’t make you do it. You’ve got to look at the guy next to you, look into his eyes. Now I think ya going to see a guy who will go that inch with you. Your gonna see a guy who will sacrifice himself for this team, because he knows when it comes down to it your gonna do the same for him. That’s a team, gentlemen, and either, we heal, now, as a team, or we will die as individuals. That’s baseball guys, that’s all it is. Now, what are you gonna do?
Excellent post,
but having climbed out of hell with the Mets before, three times, those are the years I remember most fondly.
Just don’t look back.

I find a strange pleasure in those "hell" years
I mean I loved Gilkey and One Dog, and Cammy and Wiggy
SELL THE METS

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