A Non-Sucky Bullpen? Applesauce: Mets Sign Rauch & Francisco, Trade Pagan To Giants For Torres & Ramirez, Pujols Chased By Three Teams
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 8:01 AM EST
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Well, that was quick. In the span of an hour on Tuesday evening, the Mets filled up their bullpen with quality relievers, while swapping their incumbent center fielder out for another one. On Tuesday afternoon, we heard that the team had interest in Mark Buehrle (which was debunked by Sandy Alderson) and then that they were close to signing a couple of relief pitchers. Those signings soon came to fruition. First, the team inked gigantic right hander Jon Rauch to a one year, $3.5 million contract. Then, it was announced that they had swapped CF Angel Pagan to the Giants in exchange for slightly older CF Andres Torres and righty reliever Ramon Ramirez. Just minutes later, the Mets capped off a whirlwind hour by confirming the signing of righthander Frank Francisco. There was plenty of reaction to the moves, which quickly and quite effectively saw the Mets revamp their once awful bullpen. It's starting to look like the place where they may not upgrade is at backup catcher. All aboard the Mike Nickeas Express!
Are you still crying about the loss of Jose Reyes to the Marlins? If that's the case, Toby Hyde put together a list of required Jose Reyes reading. If you'd like some more, here are a few things that came out on Tuesday. Want to read another anti-Wilpon piece? Here you go! Are you wondering what to do with your Reyes t-shirt/jersey? Foley's NY Pub can help you out.
Sandy Alderson is still interested in bringing Chris Young back. Apparently, Sandy is looking to assemble a basketball team starting with Rauch, Young and Mike Pelfrey.
Around the Winter Meetings
Albert Pujols Albert Pujols ALBERT PUJOLS! He's the talk of the winter meetings and he's currently got three offers on the table: one from the Cardinals, one from the Marlins and one from a mystery team, which is reportedly the Angels. For what it's worth, the Marlins are pushing for a decision to be made soon. Well, it worked for their pursuit of Reyes. Speaking of Jose, he'll be introduced in Miami rainbow colors later today. Grant Brisbee would like to welcome you to the new National League East.
The Mariners are rumored to be leading the chase for Prince Fielder but GM Jack Zduriencik is downplaying #6org's interest in the hefty first baseman, while the Rangers have stepped up their pursuit of CJ Wilson.
The White Sox made an interesting trade, dealing closer Sergio Santos to the Blue Jays in exchange for starting pitching prospect Nestor Molina. Meanwhile, the Twins dealt starter and potential non-tender candidate Kevin Slowey to the Rockies for a PTBNL.
Finally, if you'd like to get more up to date on the winter meetings (because let's face it: there's lot of rumors flying around and things change quickly), you can check out either Yahoo's Big League Stew's Winter Meetings Tracker or MLB.com's Hot Stove MLBlog.
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2012
Good moves. Francisco might be a little overpaid, but not ridiculously so. Pagan for Torres is a risk for a risk. Ramirez makes that deal worthwhile. Hopefully they can find a taker for Bay this off season (I know- it would take a miracle).
Don't much about Torres
But he can’t have worse baseball instincts than Pagan. No major leaguer could. Good riddance to a player who cost the Mets an untold number of both outs and extra bases in bothe the field and on the basep aths.
Apparently not.
__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget
by ScottfromPeekskill on Dec 7, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
He just bunked it again
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
A couple of things to focus on from Rubin's article
Collins confirmed Torres would assume center field and the leadoff spot.
Not sure if that’s exactly what Alderson had in mind when he traded for him, what with his career OBP of .318, but I don’t like the sound of it.
Collins also confirmed Rauch would handle the eighth inning and Francisco would close, with Rauch getting saves when Francisco was unavailable.
I’ve got to think that Ramirez is more suited to be the set-up man. I don’t doubt that Rauch will be better this year than in 2011 but even still I think Ramirez would be the better option.
Hopefully Sandy sits Terry down and has some words with him.
hope Sandy gives him a talking to about using Torres as leadoff
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 7, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Does this mean Acosta won't be back?
Acosta is actually significantly better than Rauch.
He's entering his final arb. year so I don't see why he wouldn't be.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
I don't think that's true at all
Acosta strikes more guys out, but also walks quite a few more batters. Their HR rates are about the same, and both are pretty heavy flyball pitchers. It’s pretty debatable which would be the more effective pitcher this year, but to call Acosta significantly better isn’t really an argument that statistics support.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Overall the Mets are better today than 24h ago
Pagan might have a bounce back year, but Torres+RamRam is better use of about the same amount of money.
Francisco is slightly overpaid but fills a need.
Rauch is too expensive with the other to guys signes, but hopefully the move from the AL East will help his numbers.
So, let’s just fin someone redady to take on Pelf and Bay.
One down ...
I love the ‘idea’ of Angel, but the reality is he turns into an idiot the minute he steps onto the field. We basically traded Pagan for a slightly older, less stupid version of himself PLUS a semi-decent relief pitcher. Thats a win in my book.
Now If Sandy can get something in return for FRod (and his vesting clause) theres still hope he can trade Pelf and Bay. Toss in Murph into the trade mix as well and we should get something useful in return – like a 2nd baseman that has some pop in his bat.
The team so far …
Bay(Ugh) – Torres – Duda
Wright – Tejada – ?? – Davis
Thole/Nickeas
Thats a whole lot of mediocre …
Ramirez will need to be really good to win this trade
Mets got older, slower and less productive offensively in CF. Have people looked at Torres’ career numbers. He’s had 1 good professional season, that’s it.
He's been worth 2+ WAR for three consecutive years, including a season at 6.8 (which interestingly enough is higher than Reyes career best)
That 6.8 is probably an outlier, but he’s been at least an ML average CF for three seasons in a row now. The two 2ish WAR seasons were both in partial seasons as well. Just judging strictly by performance over the last three years, Torres has been the better player in all of them when you take into account the amount of PA’s they had. Yes he’s older, but he’s also not a free agent next offseason, cheaper, and came with a good reliever.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
And age shouldn't be much of a factor in this thinking anyway
I really doubt either would have remained with the club beyond their arbitration eligibility. If there is one place in the field we seem to have a bunch of cheap talent bubbling to the surface it’s in the outfield.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Most of his value is based on his D
which frankly, makes it not as legit. Also, Baseball-Ref WAR would disagree with you a lot. He was 1.8 in ’09 and only 1.3 last year. And only 4.6 in 2010, not 6.8.
What does bWAR use to calculate defense?
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only BLUE WALLS.
The 2012 Mets: Fortune cookie says come back in 2015
Look at his offensive numbers last year
there’s no effing way he was an above 2 WAR player. I don’t care if he was like Willie Mays in CF, no way.
This is a silly argument
He WAS a 2+ WAR player in 398 PA’s last year. All you have to do is look at his fangraphs page and it will save you the guesswork.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
As mentioned BRef has him only as 1.3 WAR
That’s a significant discrepancy.
It also uses totalzone
Which is why nobody anywhere uses bWAR unless they are using data from pre-2002 for some reason. bREF is almost universally accepted as being less accurate than fWAR. If you have issues with UZR, I don’t know how you could possibly believe totalzone has any accuracy at all.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's where Fangraphs WAR has a blindspot
and overvalues defense in the face of abysmal offense. If you can look at a guy with a .660 OPS and call him a 2 WAR player, go ahead. I watched a lot of Giant games last year. He’s a good fielder, who yes, gets to play in a spacious outfield. He was also a terrible hitter. He’s not a 2 WAR player. I call bullshit on that.
WAR is a statistic
and if it rates him at 2 WAR, he is a 2 WAR player. The stats are not trying to fool you.
SELL THE METS
This
WAR is a valuation statistic, but it still has a mathematic formula. That formula doesn’t change to suit specific arguments.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He is an elite defender.
Everyone agrees on it, not just the defensive metrics.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Do you realize that his career wOBA is only 11 points lower than Pagan
Even if it wasn’t an upgrade defensively in center, the reliever easily makes the deal a win for the Mets.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
He's also 3 years older, more likely to start slipping
and if they bat him lead off, that’s going to hurt the team a lot.
Unless
he falls off a cliff in the next two years, it doesn’t matter. Neither he, nor Pagan, are long term options especially considering the fact that we actually have decent outfield prospect depth.
Turning Pagan into someone almost as good + a good reliever is a very good move especially when you consider that improving our outfield defense at center is a must with our field/pitching staff/lead footed presumptive right fielder.
Meh
Considering how much offense they will lose at SS, losing more at CF doesn’t strike me as a great move. It comes down to what you value more and what this team needs. I’m more of an offensive guy. Now that offensive numbers have plummeted across the league, there’s more value in above average offensive players than ever imo. I think Pagan’s D could have bounced back a little, he really deferred to Beltran a lot, and I think it hurt him.
Even with
the loss of Reyes, offense wasn’t a problem for this team. It’s not inconceivable that full years from Ike, Wright, Duda, and Murphy can make up some of the difference of Reyes and Beltran.
The problem with this team was pitching. My guess is Alderson looked at the market and saw no efficient sure thing upgrades in the rotation. Well if you can’t directly improve your rotation, you have to upgrade the bullpen to make the most of the leads you do have, and upgrade the defense.
The team did score runs, but
they were towards the bottom of the league in slugging, and they’ve just lost a lot of their speed as well. The offense could slip quickly. Hopefully Davis returns to form and Murphy gets the starting nod at 2b. That should boost the offense a bit, we’ll see.
Slugging is a pretty poor way to judge offense
There is no sort of park factor taken into account, so teams are not on a very level playing field at the start of that argument.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Now you're ranging into sabre nerd zone
Go back and look at the last 10 NL Pennant winners. See how many of them were below league avg. in slugging? There’s one, the ‘05 Astros. Sure, OPS+ is obviously a better way to look at it, but slugging still shows whether your team can really hit with authority or not. It’s not an obsolete stat.
Also,
don’t scoff at the possibility of him falling off a cliff. How many players have the Mets seen fall off a cliff in their final days in NY? There’s a thread somewhere that lists the dozens of players that ended their career as Mets within the last couple of seasons alone, because they were washed up and fell off of a cliff.
New York Mets baseball!
Come to citi field and pick your own seat on the cheap! What a joke, Reyes is gone and then they sign a bunch of mediocre pitchers that they won’t even need. I am not buying into any of these moves by Alderson! We are going to finish in last place regardless. Embarrassing that the Marlins of all people are opening up their checkbook while Alderson is looking for cheap bargains. Also I’m tired of the mets calling me about exciting new ticket opportunities. Nothing exciting about loosing 90 games.
the Mets don't need better relievers?
really? I kinda thought our bullpen was really bad last year and needed improvment.
relievers aren't teh sexay!
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
'Mediocre' pitchers or not
they had to make moves for the BP. 21 losses alone winning going into the 7th. Last place finishers or not, you still have to make moves to improve where you can.
And don’t shoot the messenger. It’s not Alderson’s fault the Mets are broke.
As far as the Marlins, I’m actually LOL with the offers to Pujols, Fielder, Buehrle, etc.
I just want to know when Loria is putting up the big top down there.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
MARLINS
Maybe the Mets will be buyers by the time the Marlins hold their fire sale (2014 or so?).
by MDMETSFAN on Dec 7, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I hope not
Well, at least I hope we don’t take on the last four years of Reyes’ contract (unless the Marlins eats a really bug chunk of it) when he’ll be declining but paid more.
I agree on not shooting Alderson...
Hell, he was probably sold a bill of goods by the Wilpons himself for all we know. But, ajdurk4mets’ sentiment is basically correct.
The Reyes move doesn’t by itself herald the coming of the four horsemen, but it clearly signals that the club is “dead man walking” for all practical purposes. Sandy can’t really do anything but shuffle deck chairs. There is no path to contention that doesn’t require investment — both “free agent bonanza” and “player development”. The Mets are content to tread water.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Cmon man,
what proof do you have that signing huge stars in Miami and attempting to buy a championship won’t work?
:-)
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
Bart Scott: "I’m sure now there will be something written about how the Jets are back, and we won’t listen to that either, because at the end of the day we know that you guys don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."
i know u kid
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
lol
I was actually talking about the Heat but the Iggles will do fine.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
Bart Scott: "I’m sure now there will be something written about how the Jets are back, and we won’t listen to that either, because at the end of the day we know that you guys don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."
by CharlieIsles on Dec 7, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Why are you laughing?
Whenever they spend money they win the world series. They always have a fire sale after winning the world series. It’s a lot more then we’ve done the past 25 years.
They spent money
in 05 and won jack and we got a few pieces from their fire sale.
We have made the playoffs since 1986 you know
and the only time in which the Marlins had a prayer of a championship was in those 2 years. They’re marginally competitive at best, god awful at worst. If they don’t win it all, they have the fire sale anyway (thanks for Delgado, Marlins).
SELL THE METS
What do you mean we don't need those pitchers?
Please elaborate.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
We should go with 20 position players and only 5 pitchars, DUH!
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
We're going to lose 90 games anyway
Citi field is going to be a ghost town. These relievers are at best case going to help us win 70 games. Trade everyone and get pitching prospects, that would help more. Their is no present with what they are doing.
You have to field a team and attempt to be marginally competitive
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only BLUE WALLS.
The 2012 Mets: Fortune cookie says come back in 2015
How do you know that we'll lose 90 games anyway?
Our baseline after losing Jose is probably 73 wins with no improvements. An improved bullpen can easily add several wins to that. Add in a healthy Ike and Wright, and we could have a .500 team.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
At least it will be easier to catch a foul ball ...
The Wilpons are slowly turning me from a lifelong Met fan of over 35 years into a simple consumer of National League baseball. Going to Citifield feels the same way as when I catch a Nationals game when I go to DC on business. I passed by the SNY studios on the way to work. I had to fight the urge to tape a sign on the window saying “No Reyes, No Ratings”. Then I remembered how futile that would be because the Mets have “No Money”. We’re a joke. I wonder if they sell Orange and Blue clown hats in the gift shop …
As much as I despise the Wilpons
the Mets have had 16 winning season the past 35 years, so the current state of affairs is no novelty.
by SwedeMet on Dec 7, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can I negative rec this?
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You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 10:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Shoot. Just realized:
After the 2013 Season-
The ‘New Look’ Marlins don’t work. No one goes to the new ballpark and the team is losing money left and right. Only way for Loria to recoup his losses and break somewhat even is to trade off the people he signed for prospects. The same people he signed do not have ‘no-trade’ clauses…….. and Derek Jeter’s contract has expired.
Fuck.
by barry_hal_oliver_24 on Dec 7, 2011 9:17 AM EST reply actions
Yep
Predicted that on twitter. It’s just way too likely.
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@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Dec 7, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
Makes me wonder why Jose
took that offer so early from Miami.
Have to believe the no trade clause wasn’t important to him.
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
I've thought about this too
And by that time the deals haven’t gone bad yet so they’ll be able to find buyers.
I love Foley's NY
Great place to watch baseball, especially when you just want to chill out with a bucket of beers and watch Extra Innings for the night. The owner is also a Cards fan, so they had viewing parties during the playoffs. I hate the Cards, but the viewing parties were actually fun.
As for the Mets’ moves, I really like them. Frank Francisco has always been solid and is likely to be worth a win or more, and I think he’ll be a solid closer for them. I think the Giants deal was an absolute fleecing, as Torres and Pagan are very similar players and Ramon Ramirez is actually serviceable as a middle reliever/setup guy. The Mets essentially got two players for the price of Pagan, without really taking a huge hit in outfield production. I’m not crazy about Rauch, but he is decent enough as an 8th inning setup man for Francisco. Good enough moves for me…
Amazin Avenue Offseason Plan Contest Winner - 2011 Mets
I read somewhere that Sandy
has done his homework and they were targeting a couple of guys. The deadline is tomorrow so maybe they were waiting to see if they could make deals for the BP before deciding on what type player to claim?
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Depends on when the deals/signings are "announced"
But they are going to have to do some 40 man shuffling.
Amazin Avenue News Guru
http://metropolitantales.com
@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Dec 7, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
I read somewhere that those trades/FA will only join the roster later
And for the purpose of the Rule 5, the roster was set, with 2 slots open. So SM Sandy can shuffle the roster later. Need confirmation on this.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Even if this is true
At least one person will have to be released eventually.
Is it possible that we can wait until after the Rule V draft to release some of our minor league players and then re-sign them, effectively removing them from the 40 man but keeping them in the organization? Someone like, say, Josh Stinson or Mike Baxter.
by TheBigStapler on Dec 7, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Since it is the offseason
If they are outrighted off the 40 man, I believe they can declare free agency. More likely you will see Carrasco cut and Paulino non-tendered.
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@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Dec 7, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Our transition to the Houston Astros continues unabated
I’m not blaming Sandy necessarily for these moves (though I’m not sure swapping Pagan for Torres is worth the time or effort) in a vacuum. It’s just clear to me that this team is trapped in dead zone with this ownership group.
It can’t possibly hope to compete with this roster, but it’s not exactly blowing things up to start all over either. The latter would actually require significant investments in scouting and minor league development that are just as unrealistic as paying anyone “Carl Crawford” money.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
What are you whining about?
I think you people are just content to make mountains out of molehills just to give you something to moan and bitch about.
I love the Mets but I honestly hate 99 percent of the fanbase, including idiots like you.
SELL THE METS
by piazza62 on Dec 7, 2011 10:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
this seems
like an unnecessarily harsh response. Also broadcasting your hatred of mets fans on a metsfan site is a strange strategy.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 7, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I like AA
Because it usually features a cast of intelligent fans who are willing to make rational judgements on matters. I don’t think walking to the ledge because the team wasn’t improved in a way that directly appeases the masses qualifies.
SELL THE METS
by piazza62 on Dec 7, 2011 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I had a bad day, give me a break
But even so I’m much happier bashing the fans with whom I have no connection to than I am the team you guys are supposedly fans of.
I get complaining about the Wilpons, but who complains about improving the team?
SELL THE METS
by piazza62 on Dec 7, 2011 11:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Alright, alright.
I’ve had a string of bad days, m’self.
Honestly, I think the guy you responded to was actually just lamenting the Wilpons.
So you can be grumpy about a day day
but others can’t be grumpy about losing Reyes?
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
well you can still be civil about it
also, as someone who has paid to watch the Astros in the past, may I humbly suggest there is a proverb that applies here: “never dismiss a man’s fear of becoming the Houston Astros until you have sat in his seats”
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 7, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Confucius?
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Collective thought of 25 guys playing for the Astros.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Excuse us if loosing a star homegrown all around stud like Reyes leads to some nihilism.
(And I can do without the Labaowski pic.)
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
It wasn' 't Pagan for Torres
It was Torres and Ramirez. Ramirez is one of the premier middle relievers in baseball, he’ll be a decent trade chip come July. Torres is probably a step down from Pagan, but he’s cheaper and under team control for 1 additional season if he has a bounceback. This was a good trade for a rebuilding team.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
The Astros are a bad comp
The Mets still have some really talented players and the Astros really don’t.
by graves9 on Dec 7, 2011 2:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
our pen last year
was sh*tty and demoralizing. I would say it is less sh*tty now.
Am I doing this right?
That remains to be seen
Am I doing this right?
by brooklynberger on Dec 7, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Good luck, Angel
Was always one of my favorite players.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
Bart Scott: "I’m sure now there will be something written about how the Jets are back, and we won’t listen to that either, because at the end of the day we know that you guys don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."
by CharlieIsles on Dec 7, 2011 9:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Trades are like crack
I haven’t been this excited in months. I wanna see another. Come on, Sandy, just one more!
True.
If the Mets traded Torres and Ramirez for Pagan tomorrow I’d be excited. Trades bypass the brain and go right to the pleasure center. :)
And the next day we can trade Pagan for Torres and Ramirez
The plan can't fail
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Harry Chiti FTW
Ralph Kiner: You've gotta change the script, I don't like the script.
Gary Cohen: What's wrong with the script?
Ralph Kiner: Well the script should be the Mets win every day.
i know what you mean
I just keep hoping more happens. Gotta get my fix
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Dec 7, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Spin
It seems as though Sandy and Terry are playing the Grission card for reasons to jettison Pagan. Which is odd. The trade was solid, no need to cook up any more reasons.
Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps To our website Walk
around A look at Maybe you’ll find happiness in your sight shopping heaven and earth You’ll find our price is more suitable for you.
If they plan to keep traiding/fleecing with Sabean, they can't go around and say "Ha, sucker!" for every trade they make.
So, the “change of scenery” excuse is passable.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
by Michkin on Dec 7, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is this the next Sandy move?
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Not that I wouldn't like me some Endy
but adding him with Torres means we’ll really be down some offense in the OF, unless Bay picks it up big time this year (big time as compared to his suckitutde since he got here).
by MetsFan4Decades on Dec 7, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Torres had a down year last year, he's basically Angel Pagan but older
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Dec 7, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
And with one more year of team control
With a smaller salary
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
what do you guys think of trading for a Floyd/Danks from the ChiSox?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I think it would be great, and
will never happen in a million years.
Williams wants a King's Ransom
I am guessing he would ask like Harvey/Valdespin/Vaughn for either of them. He’s insane.
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@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Dec 7, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
that is insane. I wonder what made Williams change course? he usually
trades for veteranz, not prospects
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Dec 7, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Floyd would be a nice pickup.
He’s under team control a few more seasons and he’s a pretty stable mid rotation guy. I just don’t know who they’d have to deal for him and that is the problem.
Similar with Danks except that he’s a free agent after the season so that’s not a match.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
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by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 10:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
One of the few times I agree with Keith Law
There is no rational argument that the Mets should have invested for that length of time in a player as risky as Reyes…
Come on down fromt hat ledge, people.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 10:38 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yep , The Marlins are in retard mode.
1. Signing (over paying)a SS when u have the best one in the game.
2. Albert?(over paying) 10yrs? when u need pitching and have a pretty good 1st basemen in house.
Cant wait for this to blow up.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
The one thing about signing Pujols for them is that
Gaby Sanchez or Logan Morrison immediately would become a very attractive trade chip in a deal for pitching.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 10:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
No doubt
but it dont resolve them of being retarded. smfh! 10yrs.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
plus Hanley may be on the block
after stating his unwillingness to move to 3rd.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Honestly, though
not that Reyes is a spectabulous fielder, but I doubt Ozzie Guillen was going to brooky shitty middle infield play. He might have tried to move Hanley off anyway, IMO.
maybe
but, Hanley > Jose Only .006 separate Jose from HR in Fielding.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
.006 what?
Fielding PCT? Fielding stats are notoriously wobbly.
.006 Homeruns in Fielding, is what he said.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
haha ,yep!
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
kinda missing my point.
HR is a better player ,so why sign Jose? Not for fielding ,that is only slightly better. I hope.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Because Reyes is a good player and they were counting on accommodating 2 all star players in their infield.
And they want to make a splash in the FA while losing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, … round picks (instead of a 1st round). Maybe their “friendship” was slightly overstated.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
2, Pujols not included yet.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Yes ,we will see .
It just seems ridiculous to replace good/great players with good /great players.
But time will tell.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Because Reyes is the better player.
Hanley has been declining for the last two years.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
? contract yr Reyes never came close to these #s before.
Hanley is bye far the better player . Backed up by history .
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
.
Reyes never came close to these #s before.
This is incorrect. Reyes has ben worth more than 6 fWAR three times in his career: 2006, 2008, and 2011.
Hanley is bye far the better player . Backed up by history .After reaching 7.4 fWAR in 2009, he dropped to 4.6 fWAR in 2010, and 1.3 fWAR (in 385 PA’s) in 2011. It’s not even like he hit well last season as his 96 wRC+ shows.
Hanley had the higher peak, but Reyes is the better player now.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Hanley has been hurt the last 2 yrs.
Cant wait to see Jose’s #s this yr.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
So Hanley being hurt is an excuse.
Reyes being hurt is an fault.
Got it.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Well ,yes
1 guy has been hurt only the last 2 yrs of his career. while the other … well we know how that story ends.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
The story ends with him putting up an elite season.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
And elite season while Hanley was wOBA'ing .317.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
not sure where your trying to go with this
their the same age ,Hanley has had the more “Elite” yrs. and has been hurt the last 2 . Jose in a contract yr bats 55 pts higher then his norm 290avg. And 30 pts higher then any time in his career with an OBA . finally in the realm of 400 like a lead off hitter should be.
If this is about the 2 players ,fine Jose had the better yr last yr.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
You said Hanley is the better player.
The stats say otherwise even if you excuse Hanley’s injuries and condemn Reyes’.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
LOL
Jose Reyes </3
Well that explains a lot.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
And I had drafted Hanley first overall last year in my keeper league...
What’s your point?
Neither of those things made Hanley not decline the last two years or stop Reyes from putting up an elite season.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
just a thought.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
You realize that fielding percentage only accounts for the balls that a player reaches and makes a play on, right?
By looking at fielding percentage, an archaic stat that tells you basically nothing, you ignore all of the balls that likely rolled on past Hanley Ramirez into the outfield because he has horrible range for a shortstop.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yes , clearly that is the case . dont let that portion of the convo bog u down.
I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.
Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.
Law has never been more wrong
that’s a pompous, ridiculous argument to say there’s no rational counterpoint. Dave Cameron summed it up much better in his article on it.
I em liking these moves
Not sure about Pagan for Torres, but it’s really more about Ramirez, and we’ve got a guy who can man CF competently defensively. And let me be the moron who thinks our offense will be passable provided Davis and Wright stay healthy in the middle or the order. The problem will be starting pitching. If we can patch it together, we may be able to stay out of last place, and who knows? WOOHOO!
as much as I love Pagan (his stupidity included) yeah these moves were pretty good
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Dec 7, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Pagan only got 699 in his GMAT test. Stupid, TRAID!
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Agreed and Pitching, Not Offense, Wins
I still think pitching is a much bigger problem than the offense assuming Wright, Davis and Murphy can play most of the games.
uhhh how can you get worse than Rob Dibble as your announcer?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Dec 7, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
ooops meant for itsmetsforme-I lagged out sorry
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Dec 7, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
actually you need to score runs and prevent the other team from scoring runs
so offense matters, too.
But I agree that our SP don’t look like they can carry the load.
If nothing else, I’m extremely curious to see what happens with the new dimensions. It’s an interesting experiment. Of course, we didn’t control for all of the variables. For example, the color blue may make Jason Bay fly into a wild Canuck rage.
We should traid for Pagan/Capuano and sign Beltran/Young to recreate the 2010 conditions.
We should probably smack Bay in the head during the season, to recreate his concussion.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Well, this is over before it started
because under no circumstances will I agree to reinstate the dropshadow.
What is this?
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
OT
but i wonder if Loria is going to upgrade his league worst broadcast booth. Maybe he’ll woo Burkhardt away from SNY with an unmatchable offer.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
That would be the most important move for them
from a utilitarian perspective
PLEASE DO IT!
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 10:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
he would probably buy
Gary to pair with Vin Scully without first asking Vin if he’d move to color.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Dec 7, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
HIS NAME IS... DAN! UGGLA!
On FSN, FLOOR-E-DUH… God, those guys are terrible.
Amazin Avenue Offseason Plan Contest Winner - 2011 Mets
I hear it's going to be Hagin and Don Sutton
It’s a novel marketing scheme, intended to give fans more incentive to come to the ballpark, rather than watch on TV, and/or take a bolt gun to each ear canal.
Just A Thought
The 2001 Seattle Mariners let A-Rod go and used that money to add a bunch of good, if not comparable players, and won 116 games. I am not saying the Mets are going to win 116 games but losing star players doesn’t always have the impact people think it will. How the team reacts generally has a bigger one and so far Sandy is doing good.
Here is another thought
I like your thinking millsy.
Who knows how long Reyes’ hammies are going to last. For all we know, he could have come back with us, pulled both hammies walking out of the dugout and been on the DL the whole year. In other words, we could have resigned Reyes and then lost him right away. At least now we can take that money and bolster the BP like we did and still have something left over to sign a couple players to round out the roster.
I am putting the over/under on Reyes’ games played this year at 123. What do you all think?
Probably Which Is Why I Think The Marlins Contract Is a Bad One
Alderson’s semi-offer of 5 yrs at about $80 million seems much more in line and one that could have made sense from the Mets perspective.
That's not the only reason why the Marlins' signing Reyes is bad
They had no need for him with Hanley. They need pitching.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
Oh, that doesn't matter
it was a good signing because it “sent a message” that they’re “serious about winning.”
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Only in Baseball
Does sending a message about your commitment to winning imply that you get to be the biggest irresponsible idiot in the room.
Drink up boys
plenty to go around
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by Coolpapabell on Dec 7, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Even if he plays 123 games
he’ll probably still put up a WAR over 5.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
all we need to do is find the next Ichiro!
point taken though. I think we could actually be better next year. Our pen blew 24 games last season.
Am I doing this right?
by brooklynberger on Dec 7, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
And A Juiced Up Bret Boone!
but seriously sometimes freeing up money to pay for lesser players who help fill other holes works better than tying up money in one player. It really depends on how smart you are.
Remember, the Ms, like the Mets, had a very good GM at the time in Pat Gillick. Now if this were Omar I’d be very worried. :)
This was a good post Millsy
I just hope, as Mr. Dickey tweeted (twatted? twutted?), that the money they had offered to Jose will now be put back into baseball. I guess we shall see.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Twitter: cmauceri524
Bart Scott: "I’m sure now there will be something written about how the Jets are back, and we won’t listen to that either, because at the end of the day we know that you guys don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."
by CharlieIsles on Dec 7, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is Matsui avilable?
The Mets can save a ton of cash on uniforms ..
except we didn't really free up much money
the payroll is being cut by 40M. It wasn’t money saved, but money lost.
by secret defense on Dec 7, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Butbutbut
You could convert them into jalapeno poppers!!
I've been wearing the same Ventura jersey
For 13 years so this is ok.
SELL THE METS
by piazza62 on Dec 7, 2011 2:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I believe it's in Hiroyuki's contract ...
that Jeter is allowed to refer to him as ‘Cato’ and that he has to wear a mask whenever he’s at events with Derek.
by brooklynlou on Dec 7, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Enough caterwauling about Reyes
we’ve actually had a strong offseason, and not just in improving our “walk-up” music by subtraction.
(1) Get rid of dropshadow (CHECK!)
.
.
.
(42) Paint walls blue (CHECK!)
(43) Move walls in/lower them (CHECK!)
(44) Re-sign Reyes (WELL, SHIT)
(45) Improve bullpen (CHECK!)
44 outta 45 ain’t bad.
Your fandom out shines us all.
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I'm luke warm about these moves.
Does anyone realize Rauch pretty much sucks? Also, Torres is a career .245 hitter that strikes out a ton and doesn’t get on base much? I like Ramirez and Francisco, but this isn’t much to get excited about. Who’s going to leadoff? Murphy?
Rauch is generally a pretty solid reliever
Acceptable K rate, pretty good BB rate, generally durable. He’s not Billy Wagner, but he’s a hell of a lot better than basically anything else we have in the pen at the moment. There’s almost no risk in the deal, and he’ll certainly help to avoid wasting our prospect to fill out the bullpen in a year where we aren’t likely to contend.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
He's not better than Acosta
or even Parnell if you look at their FIPs last season. If you’re going with Francisco, Parnell and Acosta as your top righties, you don’t really need Rauch. He is probably better than Carrasco, I’ll give him that, so hopefully they will be dumping him.
Having a good bullpen is really all about depth
because they’re notoriously inconsistent.
by tmu on Dec 7, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't see 3.5 million for Rauch
Hopefully he bounces back, we’ll see.
this
I can see Ramirez, Acosta and Parnell all having a better year than Rauch.
Following the Mets from across the pond.
by SwedeMet on Dec 7, 2011 5:44 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Once again, the move for Rauch didn't cost us any of them
Rauch will always likely be less bang for the buck when he’s signed as a free agent as opposed to the guys who haven’t reached free agency yet. To add more pre-FA guys we’ll need to part with prospects or players (like Pagan). At the end of the day, we now have 6 decent relievers as opposed to the three we had yesterday morning. Rauch may not be the greatest pitcher ever, but he’s decent, on a one year deal, and will potentially prevent us from rushing a prospect needlessly. He’ll also be an easy asset to move at the deadline if he’s having a decent season.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
At the very least, now that we have a semi-competent pen now, the FO can squash any talk of "Mejia as RP".
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Or so you think...
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 7, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Judging a reliever based on 1 season is a way to make awful decisions.
And beyond that, it’s not like we traded Rauch for Acosta, we now have them both.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Torres walks a decent amount
If he can get his average back to halfway decent, he wouldn’t be a terrible option.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only BLUE WALLS.
The 2012 Mets: Fortune cookie says come back in 2015
Hoping for a bounce back year at age 34
from a guy with a career OBP of .318 is dubious.
He plays elite defense.
We have at least 2 years for him to get lucky and have a BABIP fueled offensive season so we can flip him.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
I'd much rather either keep my Reyes stuff or use it for symbolic protest
than give it to some pub for an appetizer that costs 5 bucks.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Part of the appeal
is that it’s for a clothing drive.
by TheBigStapler on Dec 7, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Did not know that
but I’d still rather donate some shirt that doesn’t fit anymore.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
What?
Ramirez, Torres and Francisco?
Where’s the talk of Los Mets now?!
Don’t forget, Carrasco is signed for 2012 (lest we forget THAT Sandy signing) and will be the 11th/12th man on the staff.
My how we became spoiled by Carlos Beltran’s presence in CF!
Let’s face it, as bad as Pagan and Torres are, there just aren’t a whole lot of CFs that are much better than either of them.
by Common Knowledge on Dec 7, 2011 2:41 PM EST reply actions
The funniest part is that
Neither Pagan nor Torres are bad. Pagan had a down season defensively and Torres had one offensively so it could work out for both parties.
SELL THE METS
by piazza62 on Dec 7, 2011 2:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think there's a great chance Carrasco doesn't make team
He started throwing that side-arm junk last year and that didn’t work. That was just a poor signing, but not too expensive. Luckily, Sandy understands sunk cost, unlike Omar.
After dumping Castillo and Ollie
I think he undestand the concept of sunk costs very well. Now if Sandy can only find a way to trade the Wilpons we’re set …
So.....
Now we are trading to trade Ike Davis.
WTF is going on here.
Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps To our website Walk
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Never mind.
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