The legitimate questions regarding the Mets' pursuit (or not) of Jose Reyes
by dontstopbelieving on Dec 7, 2011 3:40 PM EST
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Print1. Did the Mets really want to re-sign Reyes?
I've assumed all along, based on Alderson's comments, that the Mets were truly interested in retaining Reyes, within certain constraints regarding years and money that ultimately were exceeded. But I do think that the manner in which they pursued him - never making an actual offer, and apparently never making real overtures to his camp until the end - calls at least some of that into question. The easy response is that there was no point in making an "offer" to Reyes that would be rejected. But by the same token, it is a bit odd that the Mets didn't even approach Reyes's camp during the exclusive negotiating period - or really until the final weekend - to make it clear that they were interested in retaining his services, and that even when Sandy had "discussions" with his agent on Friday about "parameters," these never materialized into an offer. These don't seem like the actions of a team that really wanted to keep Jose, but like one that wanted to put in a somewhat perfunctory effort.
2. Would Jose have taken any kind of "hometown discount?"
The smart money says no, but I think what fans are finding frustrating and confounding is that without the "formal offer," we never got a chance to find out. It seems very odd, from a PR perspective, that if the Mets really wanted to show their fans that they were interested in retaining Reyes, they wouldn't make a final (or any) offer to him and essentially say, "Look, this is as high as we can go within our parameters. We really want you and want to build our team around you. If you go elsewhere we understand, but this is what we can offer you." If Jose really wanted more money and/or a better chance to contend, he probably still goes to Florida, but I can't help but think that the team comes off looking better in the public eye.
And it's for this reason, frankly, that I'm slowly coming to believe that the Mets really didn't want Reyes at any price, at least for the length of the deal that was being considered. They didn't make an offer because, well, an offer can be accepted, and he didn't actually want that. They put up a bit of a show of interest, but ultimately the kind they knew would be rejected. If true, I find this kind of disappointing because I like Alderson, respect his approach, and trust the team with him - but the way this thing has unfolded is just odd, and it feels like we aren't getting the whole truth.
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I agree, the Alderson regime seems much more duplicitous than I expected about this
Sandy doesn’t usually spout evasive nonsense like this vague talk of “parameters.” And given that a non-financial show of interest, the Marlins’ 12:01am turnout, seems to have made some significant difference to the negotiations, it’s amazing how little they’ve said (and how little they seem to have done) simply to show the interest they claim to have had in signing Reyes. There’s a lot of bad, politician-esque lying going on here, it seems to me.
There is the possibility that the Wilpons have been moving the goal posts on Alderson behind closed doors
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The Wilpons have nothing to gain by lying to their own GM. I don’t think Sandy came in here thinking the Mets would be over 100 million bucks….More than likely, Bud and the Wilpons briefed him on the situation, and specifically hired him because they thought he was the guy who could turn around the franchise for cheap.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Or, more logically
They have less money now than they thought they would three, six, twelve months ago, because finances aren’t static.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 9, 2011 2:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The goalposts have been moving of their own accord
The projected 2012 budget has been in flux (and probably falling) for months, based on plummeting ticket sales. Back in July, when the Mets were over .500 and seemed poised for a feel-good finish, I’m sure Sandy hoped to have a larger budget.
Back in July, Einhorn and his money were still part of the plan
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It looks to me like they made an effort that just wasn't enough
“…as late as Saturday morning and through the course of Friday I thought it might be a possibility…. Friday there was an interest in having dialogue based on some of the conceptual ideas that I had floated. There was still interest in doing that Saturday morning. By Saturday evening things had gone way beyond what I had floated apparently.”
There was no offer sheet, but clearly they told him that with the Marlins’ last big offer, he was out. And as he said today, it was a bit of damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t, because as his offer clearly didn’t measure up, it would look like they were sneakily making an offer just to have it refused.
It looks like he took the only offer he got, and the reason it was the only offer was because it was way above, apparently, what anyone else would do.
I haven't seen any evidence from anyone of Sandy lying about his pursuit of Reyes
Why would he have to lie? He’s been very open about the Mets’ limited budget, the Mets’ desire to retain Reyes but unwillingness to commit to a 6-year deal, and the Mets’ desire to conduct their negotiations with Reyes so as not to start a “bidding war”.
Ultimately, if the Marlins had also been unwilling to offer Reyes a 6-year deal, it’s very likely that he would be a Met now. But the Mets were always unlikely to retain Reyes, because it was always probable that there would be that one team out of 29 that would want him badly enough to blow us out of the water.
And put love notes in his locker
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
I'm less convinced now than before that Reyes would have taken a discount
First, Alderson stated that his agents never gave the Mets an opportunity to match the offer. They might have realized that they would have declined and felt it pointless, but the good PR move for Reyes would have been to force the Mets to be the bad guys in this. I can’t blame Reyes if he would rather play elsewhere after the garbage Wilpon said about him in the spring, I’d probably be looking to move on as well. The fact that they didn’t give the Mets the chance to match makes me think he preferred Miami.
I also really have some questions about Jose now that he chose Miami. Why would any sane player decide to go there? I’m sure they made him feel welcome, but it must have been one hell of a sales pitch considering their track record with payroll. He must know he’s either going to be dumped in three years to somewhere else or left to rot in Miami with a shit team and no free payroll if his contract becomes an albatross. That club and owner have such a poor track record that I really can’t see why he’d go there without doing everything possible to get the same (or comparable) offer anywhere else. At least meet with the Brewers…
All said, I think this is really a problem that only exists because of years of Omar-ball. Had it not been for him, I think we’d have been able to overpay without as many detrimental effects to the rest of the team. At the end of the day though, the fact that Jose chose Miami despite all the red flags that have to be there makes me lose some of my respect for him as well. I’d have completely understood if he took that same contract with the Nationals or Tigers, but the fact that he chose the Marlins really makes me question his thought process.
I agree with the last point
Re the other two, I don’t know – the whole world knew about the Marlins’ offer late Sunday afternoon. The Mets had every opportuntiy to match it at that point, but instead confirmed that they were out. Not sure what more of an opportunity the agents were supposed to give, especially given that the Mets hadn’t made an offer of any kind until that point, or indicated that they were really interested in retaining his services.
As far as Jose, I think it’s pretty clear that for the next couple of years (his prime) the Marlins offer a far better opportunity to win a championship than the Mets, especially given that he knew that if he signed with the Mets, they would have virtually zero chance to add any more payroll. Conversely, the Marlins have made it clear they’re willing to spend more. And even if they make no other moves – a core of Reyes, Hanley, Mike Stanton, Sanchez, and Josh Johnson? Sign me up. If he really wants to win a championship, frankly, the Marlins’ track record is that they’ll go all out to do so, even if they break down the team later (and if they do, is that so bad for Reyes? He gets shipped to another contender).
by dontstopbelieving on Dec 7, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
This
He has the chance for a ring, and if they trade him after that he still has his ring and that nice contract. Plus, there’s a good chance a good team, another contending team, would be the ones trading for him at that point.
Do you really think the Marlins are anywhere near title contenders?
They’ve added Heath Bell and Jose Reyes to a 72 win ballclub. Even Albert Pujols wouldn’t make them likely to finish above 3rd in this division as it stands, and if CJ Wilson accepts this 6 year offer they have out for him that means they can’t sign Pujols anymore.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 7, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Stanton and Morrison and Sanchez are still progressing.
With the 2nd wild card, I wouldn’t be shocked.
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Even still
They could make noise with that team. I’m not saying it’s a done deal, I’m just saying we’ve seen the Marlins make these moves and go for it all and pull it off. And if that happens, and they trade Reyes, it was still worth it for him to go there.
depends on Johnson
If JJ is healthy and they add either Pujols or CJ Wilson, yes, they’ll contend.
I think they could be contenders
But I wouldn’t bet on it. Some teams just suck no matter what you do.
SELL THE METS
I wouldn't discount that first point
Reyes has pride. He may have decided that he would not let Wilpon sign him for less than Crawford money.
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"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
That would be pretty badass if true
I’d give mad props to Reyes
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
The Mets didn't even make an offer
Why would anyone go and bother to see if they would match something on a player they didn’t even bother to negotiate with? It’s not like this happened a day after the playoffs ended and the Mets were blindsided. They had every opportunity to talk with Reyes….they just didn’t. Their only defense is that “We knew bidding would get out of control so we didn’t bother”, but even that doesn’t make me feel too good.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Not making a formal offer does not equal "didn't even bother to negotiate"
The formal offer is only the last piece of the negotiations.
Why would any sane player go to Miami?
Weather, women, food, nightlife, beach. I think the better question is why would any sane player NOT go to Miami.
Players go to all sorts of bad situations for the most money. And the Marlins’ baseball situation isn’t all that terrible. Plus, it’s not like he won’t get paid in a few years if Loria wants to ship him out.
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 8, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Cause there are no women or nightlife or beaches in NY...
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The nightlife in New York is much better
but the women in Florida are in bikini shape all year round.
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so married men aren't allowed to stare at hot women in bikinis?
by secret defense on Dec 8, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
His wife put those block/filter in his computer
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Which gets us back to the beaches
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And no Latin culture
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
Um..
Women, nightlife, beaches + $110 million > Women, nightlife, beaches + 85 million.
People are making it seem like he’s going to Cleveland. And if you really think players care about how good of a guy their owners are, I don’t think you understand players at all.
by Bieser's Balk on Dec 8, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget the income tax
or lack thereof in Florida…
This argument (not yours, just that we handled this badly) is getting ridiculous
We were negotiating a deal with Greenberg when the Marlins came in and totally blew our offer away. We were informed of it, could not possibly compete with it, and ended our pursuit.
Any notion of a potential hometown discount is totally bogus. We were informed of the offer to see if we had any plan to match/top it. If Reyes had considered a discount for us, you don’t think we would have known? Hours on the phone negotiating, and we would have no clue?
The fact that people are claiming we weren’t interested is absurd…after trying to formulate an offer, the Marlins far exceeded what we could pay. And they got him. This argument is just completely senseless…
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by santana9237 on Dec 7, 2011 4:37 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Mets had over a month to offer Reyes something
The Marlins had sent him an offer two weeks before the one he ultimately signed. It’s not like the Mets didn’t see this coming. The Mets weren’t comfortable going for 5 years, let alone 6 with an option. And they have no money, so they didn’t want to give him too high of an AAV. For Jose to even consider the Mets, he would have to be giving them a minimum 30 million dollar discount.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
I mean,
That’s pretty much my point. I’m sure an offer would have been on the table by now had the Marlins not ended this thing. But what does it matter? They jumped in, and totally blew away anything we could offer. How would offering Reyes a crappier contract have meant anything?
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I guess here's what I'm trying to say
Let’s start with the premise that has been the Mets’ public face: we wanted Jose back, but within certain limits, and the Marlins’ offer far exceeded those limits. Fine. So from a negotiating standpoint, I’m looking at a few points:
1. The Mets’ exclusive negotiating window after the WS.
Option: Reach out to Reyes’ representatives, let them know you are interested in talking, that you want their client back notwithstanding your financial constraints. Instead, the Mets do nothing.
2. The Marlins’ initial offer to Reyes after rolling out the red carpet.
Option: Again, reach out to Reyes to let him know you’re seriously considering it and need to crunch the numbers.
Option: Make concrete offer within your limits, if in fact you can make a comparable offer to the Marlins’ initial offer.
Option: If you can’t make a comparable offer to the Marlins’, then make your last best offer.
It appears that the Mets pursued the first option, but only last Friday after a very long period of silence, and based on Reyes’s comments today, it sounds like they didn’t strike Greenberg as being serious.
3. The Marlins make their huge offer.
Option: Make your last best offer, explaning that it’s the best you can do.
Instead, the Mets basically pull out, never having made an offer.
Basically, negotiation can take a lot of forms. It may ultimately be about the money – if so, that’s fine – but there are ways of setting yourself up in a negotiation to position yourself even if you’re not in the best negotiating position financially. The Mets chose not to do this, which is why I seriously wonder whether they were really interested or whether a lot of this was a poorly-executed charade.
by dontstopbelieving on Dec 7, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
This
Regardless of how much they could offer, they never took the approach of showing Reyes how much they wanted him back on the team, if in fact they wanted him back at all. When the Marlins made their first offer, this could’ve been a good time to come in and make a concerted effort. Standing pat and waiting doesn’t show yourself committed to keeping Reyes. I also feel using that exclusive time period to pitch Reyes on staying with the Mets would’ve done some good for the Mets chances of keeping him.
I posted this a few days ago but I think it bares repeating:
This isn’t me turning on Alderson or joining the #SmallMarketSandy crowd
but we do have to consider that in the past year, he has made two gambles and lost on both counts.
The first was whether to extend an offer to Reyes for an extension. He could have taken a leap of faith that Reyes was a good as advertised but instead he took a "prove it to me" approach and it backfired in the form of a career year.
The second was sitting back and not setting the market. While sound in theory, in practice because of the extremely limited budget it was essentially playing to loose. He could have used the exclusive negotiating period to lay his cards on the table so to speak and put his best (or near best) offer forth. From reports this would have been around 5/$75M (I think). The initial Marlins offer was around 4/$80. Maybe Reyes sees that and says "you know what, I might as well say with the city I know and love if the next best offer is only $5M more" and never even gives the Marlins the chance to blow him/Alderson away with 6/$106M.
Again, I’m not condemning Alderson or even necessarily blaming him, but we do have to ask ourselves if we have given him and his decision making process too much credit.
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Well, it's far too early
To say that Sandy “lost” in that we don’t know what the future holds for Reyes. He could blow out his hammy on Opening Day 2012, making Sandy’s decision a wise one.
But I agree with you regarding a miscalculation if, in fact, Sandy’s goal was to re-sign Reyes at a reasonable cost. My fanpost asks, though, whether that really was his goal.
by dontstopbelieving on Dec 7, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
There is some speculation going around, we don't know all the details of the negotiation.
About your point 1 and the Mets doing nothing:
Jon Heyman
#mets asked reyes for his price. when he didnt provide one, mets said get back to us when youre done shopping. 7 Nov via web
Some people talked about (the lack of) a possible early offer, locking Reyes into a hometown discount:
A person close to Reyes told The Post there is almost no chance the shortstop will accept a hometown discount to remain with the Mets. A second person, who regularly spends time with Reyes, indicated the fact the Mets probably aren’t on the cusp of playoff contention may kill the team’s chances of re-signing Reyes.
"I think that might play into [Reyes’] decision more than he let on to anybody," the person said. Source
About the lack of a formal offer:
Multiple reports indicated that the Mets were dead set on not giving a guaranteed 6th year. The parameters Sandy floated around were around 5years and about 75-85m, maybe a 6th year option.
There were 2 strong suitors for him, Mets and Marlins. I don’t think anyone foresaw the Marlins being in the bid or that they would come out that aggressively and actually sign high ranked FA. Early in the process, many people thought they were making offers to all FA “just for show”.
In conclusion, I believe it’s a bit precipitated to criticize how the negotiations proceeded given how we don’t know all the details and the Marlins unexpectedly tossed money around.
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Yep
Why are we so concerned about the optics? Reyes wanted a 6th year; the Mets wouldn’t commit to it. Honestly, I’d prefer for the GM to be spending his time elsewhere than putting on a dog-and-pony show to make it look like they wanted Reyes back. They didn’t want him back at 6 years.
I disagree with Santana totally here, because
while they may have been “interested” in bringing Reyes back, they weren’t realistic about what it would take and they were deluding themselves. He was going to get this kind of offer. It’s a reasonable offer, and could end up being a bargain. They should have traded him if they really thought less than 6 years, or less than 100 mil was going to get it done. That’s why the whole process seems like a half-ass effort from the Mets and always will. Don’tStopBelievin is dead on is his assessment. It reeks of bad faith by the Mets. They wanted Reyes, but their offer was terrible. And to say they couldn’t afford it is a bit wrong too. They just acquired 3 relievers for about $11 million. If they chose to let Pelf walk, that’s $16 mil right there for Reyes this season. Personally, I’d rather have Reyes than Francisco, Pelf and Rauch.
Jose will learned but getting burned is like in Miami
Anyone see how the deal is structured? It’s $10m the first two years, then $16m then $22m per with the buyout. I’ll bet Buehrle is similarly structured and their both gone after 2-3 years.
I’m thinking Loria is getting ready to sell the team and using taxpayer dollars/new stadium, spending spree to build the value in order to cash out.
Wouldn't be the first time
Delgado made 4 million bucks his first year with the Marlins and then was traded to the Mets where he made ~15
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
This from Joel Sherman so take with a large grain of salt
Earlier (about 6:45) he was on the Michael Kay show an had the following to relate about Reyes and the Mets. It wasn’t in the papers so I have no link to this. Basically by Saturday afternoon, Greenberg had an offer from Miami for six years. He then spoke with Sandy and the two discussed the “parameters of a deal with the Mets” for 5/90, a higher AAV than what Miami eventually gave him. Sandy let Greenberg know the Mets were not going to go over five years. At which point Greenberg went back to the Marlins, worked out the details and let Sandy know Sunday morning that Reyes was leaving.
So the Mets did make an offer, and a nice one at that. At the end it came down to Reyes wanting a sixth year, and the reasoning of Reyes and Greenbrg that warm weather woukd be better for his hamstrings. Reyes also felt disrespected by the Mets lack of actively pursuing him as the Marlins did.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 7, 2011 8:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
So basically
They did offer him a contract, but the years weren’t right for the Mets and Reyes to agree on. That’s understandable, although it doesn’t make it hurt any less. But what does “actively pursuing” him actually mean? I don’t think the Mets had to make a spectacle of themselves the way the Marlins did, and I’m sure there were other teams behind the scenes that also made offers.
SELL THE METS
Because they didn't take him out to dinner?
Seriously, that comment / attitude from Jose was a little annoying. What is he a 13 year old girl? Should they have written, “Mets (heart) Jose” in the outfield grass?
I’m guessing Alderson was also annoyed, hence the “chocolates” comment.
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
It is odd
Sherman said something about The Marlins meeting him in Long Island at 12:01 on the day they were allowed to meet with him ,and the Mets were more reserved made Jose feel disrespected.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 8, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
The TSA at JFK should have given Loria and Michael Hill cavity searches.
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For three straight hours
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and no flowers the next day
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"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
If this is true, that's fine
Can’t begrudge him for wanting more money/time. That kind of totally changes the story.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 7, 2011 9:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
discussed the "parameters of a deal"
is a long fucking way from making an offer.
Just sayin’
One day, this team is going to kill me.
If the parameters were years and dollars
it’s pretty close.
Just sayin’
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
This
In fact, I’m not really sure what the difference between parameters of a deal and an offer really are.
A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by Blame-everyone-else on Dec 9, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
One is a binding agreement
the other is not.
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thank YOU
you can discuss parameters until you are blue in the face……if Alderson kept saying “let me think about it”, or “let me get back to you”, or “let me talk to ownership”, then no offer was made.
Kinda like buying a car…..you walk into the dealer, talk dollars and options, and you bargain back and forth, but nothing happens until either the buyer decides to buy at that price, or the seller meets the buyer’s price demands.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
But what the hell is one more year at that point?
It’s a stupid place to draw the line, that’s what bugs me. 7 years may have been too long, but 6 only took him through his age 33/34 season. That’s really not bad.
i kinda think Reyes was sick of being here
i mean, its not like the media was good to him. In fact, they dogged him consistently. That is, until it looked like he was going somewhere else, then all of a sudden he was the most important player ever.
This club is having major issues. Not only with money, but attendance is down and the direction of the team is saying its prob not gonna make a big splash until the young pitchers are up. Why waste what could be his last prime years on a team in holding (not that I dont believe, cause i do…)
The mets dont have a good history with handling injuries… he is a prone to injury player.
Miami is fun, and has a HUGE latin culture. Its not hard to see him wanting to live there.
I feel like I have been defending Jose his whole carrer. Now, all of a sudden, everyone loves him and wants to act like he has always been the darling of NY. That he was not.
I really dislike the NY Sports media, and if I was an athlete it would def give me pause of coming here. With Jose spending years having to answer stupid questions and reading articles about his over-celebrating… is it really that surprising that he didnt sign here?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
Like the really funny uncle with a healthy bourbon habit who matches every brilliant Thanksgiving story with one or two ill-advised racist jokes or boob grabs, we’re stuck with Melo. So we might as well learn to love him — quirks and all. http://knickerblogger.net/2011-report-card-carmelo-anthony/
hah, totally
I find myself typing out heartfelt defenses of Jose, and then heartfelt defenses of Sandy, in turn.
And anyway, it looks like they said to him, “we’re building to win in the very near future,” and given that they’ve done exactly that twice in recent memory, why wouldn’t he want to buy into that opportunity?
It is hilarious
that all the writers who fell over each other writing, “Traid teh Core!” articles are now saying, “How could they let the best Mets playah EVAH go?”
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/5/10/2163191/is-trading-reyes-an-option
Could have traided him early
I think it's funny I've heard a lot of people say Reyes will coast on his contract
I think that’s such b.s. As Mets fans, we all know the guy loves to play so much, he’s gonna do his best to earn that contract and then some, and I bet he will.
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