Innings Eater ?

by exbrooklynite on Dec 8, 2011 11:47 PM EST

What is a true "innings eater"?

I keep hearing Mike Pelfrey spoken of as an "innings eater" because he provides 200 + innings per year.

Should 200+ innings per year be our definition ?

The title carries with it a certain level of "positiveness", so I have been wrestling with our current definition.

I also remember in the "pre pitch-count days", that it was normal for a SP to log 180+ innings, and there were many guys who regularly went over 225 IP per year. Back then, it was normal for a rotation to have 3 SP with over 180 IP per year. An "innings eater" (based upon innings pitched) back then would have been 270-300 IP.

What I guess I'm really getting at, is that I don't see Pelfrey's career overall as being quite so positive. Yes, he stays off the DL. Yes, he gives us 200 IP...... BUT.... how many games does he really preserve our bullpen? Does he often pitch 7+ innings ? (At least last year wasn't the case.) What benefit is there to one pitcher taking the ball every 5th day and giving us 5 2/3 to 6 mediocre innings per game against a couple of other approximately .1 WAR pitchers sharing the #5 rotation spot and doing the same? Either way, our bullpen gets used early in the game.

My goal isn't to pick on Pelf, just to point out that his "type" of "innings eater" doesn't necessarily benefit a team significantly. Perhaps this positive type of moniker should go to someone who preserves the bullpen a bit more.

Thoughts?

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Innings eaters, to me, are more like R.A. Dickey than Mike Pelfrey

They’ll give you quality innings, won’t dazzle you, but will prevent enough runs and can go deep enough into outings to give the team the win. Knuckleballers like Niekro and Wood gave 300+ innings a year like that.

Pelf is more of an innings waster, someone that can go toe the rubber every fifth day until something less painful comes along.

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by piazza62 on Dec 9, 2011 12:09 AM EST reply actions

R.A. Dickey doesn't dazzle you?

SHAME!

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by Hoyadestroya85 on Dec 11, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions

I don't attach any "positive" connotations to the term "innings eater" other than he gives you better than replacement level production.

Basically, he gives you around 200 innings but doesn’t provide negative value. Under this definition, Pelfrey certainly qualifies since he’s never pitched less than 184 innings and has never provided a negative WAR.

It seems that under your definition, only pitchers who are above average in value (≥ 2 WAR) while approaching 200 innings would qualify. Last season there were 56 pitchers who gave you 180+ inngins while putting up a fWAR of 2 or greater. That’s 1.87 per team on average. Pelfrey would qualify under this definition twice in his four years of starting full time.
If you want define the term in a more strict sense, only 36 pitchers pitched 200 innings while being worth 2 wins or better. That’s just over one per team on average. Even under this stricter definition, Pelfrey would qualify twice in four seasons.

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by Ogre39666 on Dec 9, 2011 12:42 AM EST reply actions 1 recs

I personally look at pitchers using three stats (If I don't use WAR)

Innings pitched, ERA, strikeouts (either the pure number, K/9, or K:BB ratio. Using these things, there’s kind of like a plane for each, with good and bad. Optimally, you want a guy who is good with all three, kind of like the middle of a ven diagram. Two out of three, not bad. One out of three, eh. This gives, viscerally, value to guts who pitch IP, but maybe don’t have the best ERA. Or guys with the low ERA in not that many innings.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 9, 2011 2:21 AM EST via mobile reply actions

When I think of an innings eater

I think of a guy whose best skill is being on the field. He can’t really do anything too well except be mediocre over 6 or 7 innings. Useful, perhaps more useful than WAR says, but these guys aren’t pretty to watch. That’s pretty much the same thing you said. I agree with Ogre, “innings eater” had a negative connotation to me.

It’d be interesting to know if 6-7 innings and 3-4 runs is more useful than 5-6 innings and 2-3 runs. I’d guess the latter is more valuable in terms of WAR, but if there’s something to the “saving the bullpen” thing, and I’m sure there is to some extent, maybe these starters are similar in actual value to a team.

Astro Travellin'

by BlackOps on Dec 9, 2011 5:41 AM EST reply actions

MIKE PELFREY HUNGRY!

…tasty tasty innings

"..."

by Thaddeus Ballpheasant on Dec 9, 2011 5:45 AM EST reply actions 2 recs

Steve Trachsel

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Dec 9, 2011 7:14 AM EST reply actions 1 recs

Yes. Trachsel Is My Definition of Innings Eater

Not horrible, not great pitcher who generally throws close to 200 IP, has a decent WHIP, decent WAR, keeps you in games. Trachsel is it.

As I have mentioned before, Pelf is an enigma to me. Having a 93-95 MPH sinker is a genetic gift. You can teach someone to throw a curve, change-up, slider but you can’t teach a guy to throw harder. I watch that sinker and think this guy should be lights out but he doesn’t have good secondary pitches and gets rattled pretty easily (watch out the minute he starts licking his hand).

I think Omar did a big disservice to Pelf by rushing him. Most guys learn/perfect break stuff in the minors and the fact that Pelf had very little minor league time I think has hurt him immensly. Apparently DePodesta has analyzed how long pitchers should throw at each minor league level in order to be successful and as such we are unlikely to see any of the young arms b/f the rosters expand in Sept.

by millsy on Dec 9, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions

For perspective:

Trachsel was better than average (≥ 2 WAR) 3 times in his 13 years as a full time starter; he was close enough another 5 times (within 0.3 of 2.0 WAR). Of those 8 seasons where he was average or close to it, he pitched 180 innings or more 6 times. So under the OP’s definition (which it appears you share), Trachsel was an innings eater for 46% his career as a full time starter. Pelfrey has done it 50% of the time (2 out of 4, see above for details). So if you are going to call Trachsel an innings eater, you should be calling Pelfrey one too.

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by Ogre39666 on Dec 9, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions

Innings Eater Is A Broad

But yes Pelf meets the definition.

by millsy on Dec 10, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions

Wow

All this Pelfrey conversation started only because I questioned how Sandy could have been “underwhelmed” in a trade offer for Big Pelf. Does anyone know if Pelfrey is arbitration eligible yet and, if so, are the Mets considering a non-tender of Pelfrey? If so, then you really have to wonder why Sandy didn’t take whatever he could get for Pelfrey.

by Common Knowledge on Dec 9, 2011 1:13 PM EST reply actions

He's arbitration eligible yes

He’ll make around $5 million dollars for 2012.

Trading Palfrey is not smart because, while he isn’t lights out, when he’s on, he’s decent. There’s no rush to trade him, so why do it after a season of general suck? Better to wait to see if he can return to being generally decent, to maximize returns.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 9, 2011 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions

I do sort of agree on the fact that we really dont have a true definition for "innings eater"

It just seems like such a broad term. It seems to range from pure mediocrity in pelfreys case, to a pitcher like Dan Haren. That being said, 200 innings is 200 innings. He has some value to the team, and is still an upgrade over the Gee/Schwinden brigade.

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by ShaqKazaam on Dec 9, 2011 1:27 PM EST via mobile reply actions

I'd much rather deal Pelfrey than Niese

but I can see how Niese has more value to other clubs than Pelf….

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Dec 9, 2011 1:50 PM EST reply actions

We always hate the suck-we-know more than the suck-we-don't-yet-know

There are tons of pitchers just like Pelfrey out there – many cost more than he does. But since he was once going to be a “future ace” we’re disappointed. It’s more about expectations than his absolute performance.

Plus he’s a warning sign no one wants to face up to – odds are that we’ll be lucky if two of Mejia, Familia, Wheeler & Harvey equal or better Pelfrey’s big league performance.

If Sandy had $7m around with which to improve the rotation and needed another $5m to bring in Kuroda, then I’d dump Pelf for whatever we could get – or even non-tender him. But that doesn’t appear to be the case so I’m cool with seeing if he can put together a good first half and build trade value.

by cpins on Dec 11, 2011 11:20 AM EST reply actions

who here at AA bought in Pelfrey as "future ace?"

anyway, I don’t mind seeing him if he can bump up his value either, but if they’re serious about dealing anyone it SHOULD be him rather than Niese. all I’m saying.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Dec 12, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions

Probably some of the folks who thought Millege-Gomez-FMart would be our OF by now

There was meltdown outrage when BA dared suggest that some Yankee prospect named Phil Hughes was Pelf’s equal. Turns out both have been disappointments.

I’d rather they deal Pelf than Niese as well but we need to be realistic that it would be little more than a salary dump. As you noted, he’s not going to have near the value that Niese does.

by cpins on Dec 12, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think Hughes has been a disappointment

As a 31-year-old rookie, he was worth 1.1 WAR. Injuries and stuff have marred his career so far, but he did throw two 2.5 WAR seasons back to back in 2009 and 2010. He hasn’t pitched as a first round draft pick, maybe, but he’s been decent when he’s on the mound.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions

So he's not much different than Pelfrey

I’ll tell you where you can shove your OPS.

Here’s what puts food on the table for Jason Bay and his family – his ability to hit HRs and drive in runs – RBIs

by piazza62 on Dec 13, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions

He's a two years years younger

but more importantly, Hughes is a lot more refined, or polished, whatever you want to call it, as a pitcher. A fastball, a cutter, a change-up, a curve, a slider once-upon-a-time, all with varying degrees of effectiveness.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions

FMart ah that just makes me facepalm with sadness

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Dec 13, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions

Keep us in the game

We’re talking about the decline in standards here. Thirty starts a season at seven innings a start is only 210 innings. That exceeds the ridiculousness of the so-called quality start, which yields 180 innings a year and an ERA of 4.50. Only three teams couldn’t manage a 4.50 ERA last season, so who besides broadcasters uses that stat? You throw more innings because you’re getting outs, and because you’re strong enough to do it. Raving about 200 innings is to be excited by a C+ on an exam. Pelf’s weakness lies above his shoulders. You see it in his face, his game, his composure. He’s not mentally there.

by OldSchoolMetFan on Dec 12, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions