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Luis Castillo: History's Greatest Monster?

Luis Castillo may be the best thing that ever happened to Oliver Perez, at least this week.

The Mets lefty received some flack for not reporting to spring training early, but scrutiny of Perez has lessened in the last few days with the just-on-time arrival of Castillo. Jon Heyman in particular seems to have it out for Castillo, insisting the Mets should release him right now and pick up free-agent scrapper David Eckstein to "immediately boost their attitude/karma." (I will file this under Reasons I'm Glad Jon Heyman is Not the Mets' GM.)

Heyman's tweets were a bit over the top and a tad unprofessional, but he's far from the only one not pleased with Castillo. Read between the lines of any of the team's beat writer updates and you can see an undercurrent of exasperation with him. Then again, that may just be a reflection of the fanbase's attitudes, since most sentiments expressed by Mets fans make Heyman's remarks about Castillo seem mild in comparison.

I'm not the biggest Luis Castillo fan in the world, and though he ostensibly has a clean slate with the new front office, I suspect that Sandy Alderson and company feel the same way. If he were released before Opening Day, that'd be perfectly fine by me. Much like Sam Page wrote yesterday, I'd just as soon not have to hear about someone who, barring a miracle or a disaster, will not break camp with the Mets.

However, I think much of the dislike of Castillo is way out of proportion to the man's actual crimes. I also believe he has suffered for being at the wrong place at the wrong time--namely, on the Mets simultaneously with Oliver Perez.

 

Star-divide

After being acquired by the Mets during 2007, Luis Castillo received a four-year, $25 million contract in the subsequent offseason. This deal almost immediately became a symbol of the Omar Minaya regime: Filling the team's holes with mediocrity and overpaying for the privilege.

Even in his prime, Castillo was a slap-hitter with just okay defense at second base, but age and injury have diminished these already modest skills. He was not well liked among the fan base even before he dropped an easy pop up in the bottom of the ninth of a Subway Series game on June 12, 2009. That turned a Mets win into a Yankee victory, and Castillo from a disliked player into a hated one.

With all this being said, my dislike of Castillo solely has to do with him not being very good at baseball. I don't know anything about him personally, nor do I particularly care. I thought his excuse for not going to Walter Reed Hospital last summer was a little shabby (much, much shabbier than that of Carlos Beltran, who somehow got the lion's share of the media outrage anyway), but other than this, I've seen no evidence that he's a Bad Guy.

Contrast that with Oliver Perez, who held the Mets hostage last year by refusing a minor league assignment. ("I don't want to go there," he told the Daily News. "I want to get better here.") The team was forced to give him a sham of a DL stint and "rehab" time, and just barely escaped the ire of the commissioner's office when doing so. After that, Perez clogged up a roster spot for a good chunk of the season, acting as the bullpen's poison pill, only to be used when every other option had been exhausted. Perez has clearly decided that if his once-promising career was going to go down in flames, he was going to do as much collateral damage as possible on the way down.

The problem for Castillo is that in most people's minds, his sins and Perez's have been conflated. When the Mets' problems are discussed, the enormous, unmovable contracts of Castillo and Perez are mentioned in the same breath. So somehow, Castillo has become as disliked as Perez, even though nothing he's done while in a Mets uniform comes close to how Perez hamstrung the team last year, which approached Terrell Owens levels of cluelessness and selfishness. Really, all Castillo has done is accept a contract offered to him--a terrible one, yes, but I wouldn't expect any player to turn down that kind of money, regardless of their skill level.

Even worse, Perez has a much higher likelihood of staying on the team than Castillo. Because any lefty pitcher has at least marginal value--yes, even Perez--whereas Castillo's worth extends no further than the pain caused by his insane contract. I would not be surprised to see the Mets go north with Ollie in the bullpen, if only for a little while, whereas I see almost no way Castillo stays a Met. It's unfair, but then again, so is life.

This is not a cry for sympathy for Castillo, who will still make more money than I could in 10 lifetimes. Again, I would very much prefer that he not be on the Mets anymore, since I think all of the other second base options on the team's roster are a step up from him in every way. I just find it curious that he is suddenly public enemy number one among the fans, while a far more deserving candidate is throwing BP and escaping judgment.

Comment 149 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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That's all there is to say.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 22, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

You forgot

He’s the scummiest scum who ever scummed.

by BurleighGrimes on Feb 22, 2011 1:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Poetry
Filling the team’s holes with mediocrity and overpaying for the privilege.

To me, that’s it. Who is a better representative of the team’s horrendous decision making? LOLie, at least, was still in his “prime” and had a good year and a decent year under his belt when he was given the deal. Omar is gone, Jerry is gone, Cora, Frenchy, Tatis are all gone, Jeff is humbled… who is left to represent the pain of 2007-2010? Castillo.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 12:19 PM EST reply actions  

Frenchy

We should send him a nice fruit basket or something.

by CCE718 on Feb 22, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

"who is left to represent the pain of 2007-2010?"

DAVID WRONG

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on Feb 22, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah

I hated the Castillo deal from day 1. It made absolutely no sense to give a declining play that kind of money, and even worse, clog up second base for the next four years. I remember INSTANTLY calling for Minaya to be fired after that one. The Perez deal I could at least try to understand; he has that magical season where he had put it all together, he’s young, he’s a lefty, there was no other lefty but Derek Lowe available, etc etc. I wasn’t happy about it, but I could understand it. Castillo’s deal on the other hand was incomprehensible.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Feb 22, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I remember that offseason when we resigned Castillo

thinking that if they really wanted him back, I’d be okay with 2 years. At the time I remember reading that the Astros were interested and willing to offer 3 years and at that point I was ready to say no thanks. 3 years for Luis Castillo was way too much. And then Omar came back with that ridiculous 4 year offer. When I read that, I remember thinking to myself “if you are outdoing Ed Wade on the stupid scale, you know you are really stupid.”

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

That was the "beginning of the end"

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 23, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

The biggest problem I have is the thought process behind the signing

     The idea that, as a plan, it would be a good idea to play a 32 year old who needs surgery on both knees on the same side of the infield with an immovable object is just ludicrously sickening in theory, let alone reality.

     Castillo had to do a pushup to get off the ground, his knees hurt so bad and yet he was expected to play well for FOUR years? A player who carved a career out for himself by hustling, getting OB and turning a beautiful DP? What kind of thinking was behind this decision? The same thinking that results in all the poorly thought out moves through the last two decades. Need second basemen, get second basemen.

     Don’t plan ahead by scouting the draft well, signing several high ceiling MIer IFA’s, don’t consider anyone else’s A+ or AA prospects or even a rule 5 or non tender for a year or two.

     It’s really a fluke when this team does actually produce a good position player. Imagine if Eddy Toledo doesn’t discover Reyes or Hampton and Glavine do want to stay here……I wonder what the plan would have been then?

by t agee on Feb 22, 2011 12:50 PM EST reply actions  

totally agree

with this assessment of Castillo as a player, and the Minaya era’s overall idiocy. i just think Castillo’s not necessarily a bad guy, just a bad player. he’s easily out-douched by Perez and Frenchy, who whined about CitiField and not wanting to be benched.

by Matthew Callan on Feb 22, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

This is it for me.

I don’t hate Castillo. I don’t even dislike him. I just don’t want him playing. Ollie and Frenchy, on the other hand, I would like to fight with a hammer.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Twitter: ThomasTSKH

"Everything's gonna be awesome." -Ken Oberkfell
"ARSHAVIN IS MAGIC" -Brooks Peck

by Thomas Wachtel on Feb 22, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

people leading this “hate campaign is dumb” thing are really way off base. I’m pretty sure that people are way more mad about the circumstances that led to this moment where we are still lamenting the fact that LC is still kicking around a Met ST fighting for a job…. we’re mad at the people who did this and continue to allow LC to suck air from the team… oh yeah and that we’re still apparently being led by a dumb fool who would bat LC 2nd in the order if he (somehow) wins the job… that no matter how much things change we keep getting kicked in the teeth by this flippin mess.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Whats wrong with batting him second?

Projects for a better OBP than Pagan or Murphy.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Because is OBP is likely to be higher than his Slugging

Taking walks is about the only thing the man does well.

by dcmetsfan on Feb 22, 2011 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I used Fangraph's projections

For a quick and dirty check.

.337 last year was terrible (considering its his only remaining skill), but .387 in 2009 and .368 on his career are not bad.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

he's 35.

he’s not going to get better. It only goes downhill from here.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

But it doesnt go in a straight line. There are peaks and valleys along the trend line.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you're ignoring the specific case

and just looking at a bunch of numbers like a lot of people are wont to do here. If anything LC’s 09 obp was flukish. All he’s capable of doing is hitting a GB bet 1B and 2B… he’ll be lucky to hit .250 anymore, so he’s got a mountain to climb to have a respectable obp.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

WTF are you talking about?

What am I ignoring and what am I just doing? I said he projects to have a better OBP, and sure enough, he does.

Not sure why I am defending LC anyway, he does stink, not trying to make a case for him, just that batting him 2nd is not indefensible.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

of course it is.

even if he has a higher obp than Angel Pagan (highly unlikely as that is), you’re making it seem that obp is useless everywhere else in the lineup and that makes no sense.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

moreover,

he’s an 8 hitter if anything. his lack of ability to get past 1B makes him a liability up in the order.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I certainly think the hate for Castillo is overblown

Although the dropped popup was so perfectly symbolic that I can totally understand it.

Obviously, it was monstrously silly to give him 4 years given his age and physical condition (and the much cheaper options on the market), but it wasn’t nearly as ill-advised as the Ollie deal. At the time, Castillo had been a consistently above-average player who was worth something like $42M over the previous 4 years. Ollie has never been worth $36M even if you cherry-pick the three best years of his career.

Since the deal, Castillo has been below-average and frequently injured, but he has actually provided SOME positive value to the team (about $12M according to fWAR), unlike Ollie’s total and comprehensive black hole of suck.

It’s time to dump Castillo and move on with our lives, but personally, I’m going to file him away as “unfortunate” rather than “despised” in my own personal slice of Mets lore.

by psiogen on Feb 22, 2011 12:58 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

Thank you Matt Moulson!
It doesn't hurt being an Islander fan....but it sure hurts playing for them...get well soon, um, everybody....

by CharlieIsles on Feb 22, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't hate him either

I liked him quite a bit with the Marlins. He plays hard, was at one time an effective part of a well conceived line up, sac bunts with a man on to avoid the FC or DP but that’s like a prevent offense. What he gives you offensively is only available when no one is on base. What kind of help is that? Add in no range or extra base hit potential and it’s clear that the only defense for this signing is the usual “but who else were we going to get to play (insert position of latest misguided expensive acquisition.”)

by t agee on Feb 22, 2011 1:22 PM EST reply actions  

this is the one I have issue with....

Castillo so often doesn’t run hard to 1B…. so I take exception to those who even want to scrape the bottom of the barrel that he “plays hard.”

I find it hard to believe that LC will ever play another ML game if the Mets release him before going north… there are just way too many options at 2B around the league for any team short over there.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I get the feeling he'll hook on somewhere, likely on a minor league deal.

Remember that certified D- students Dayton Moore, Ned Coletti, Ed Wade, Jim Hendry and Brian Sabean still have GM gigs.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Sabean,

you mean the one with a WS ring from last year? I wish our GMs would be that terrible.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry but positive results

don’t equal positive process. Yes they won a world series but that’s thanks to an outstanding rotation (which I’ll give him credit for…he put it together, even though he nearly dealt Cain or Lincecum to the Jays a couple of years ago for Alex Rios). However, that offense got lucky picking up one dimensional retreads like Burrell, Huff, Uribe etc on the cheap who happened to get hot down the stretch.

He’s done a better job of late through the draft with guys like Lincecum, Posey, Bumgarner, et al due to their high draft picks but I just look at the state of those teams in the post Bonds era when they trotted out lineups that featured Pedro Feliz or Bengie Molina batting cleanup, Randy Winn in the OF, old timers like Omar Vizquel, Ray Durham and Dave Roberts getting regular playing time and not a decent offensive prospect in sight. And don’t forget about that terrible Zito contract too.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So say that the 2006 Mets won Game 7 of the NLCS and then won the World Series.

Does that make Omar Minaya a good GM?

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm saying it doesn't

matter if someone thinks he’s good or bad if he has rings.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't take the series away from them, sure... but if they want to be contenders every year they're going about it totally the wrong way.

lucking into one is nice for the Giants, sure, but they’re not exactly favorites to do it again any time soon. The way to give yourself the best chance of winning a series is building a team that has a chance to make it to the playoffs every year.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If he somehow wins 2 of the next 3 WS then

maybe his master plan (of finding scrap heap hitters to complement a dominant rotation) will have worked to perfection. The problem is that you can’t guarantee that they’ll be back to the playoffs next season, let alone winning 2 of the next 3 WS.

At this point, his dominant rotation pitched well and the scrap heap signings somehow all got hot at the same time (you can’t tell me that you really believe Cody Ross is anything near what he was in the playoffs…he got hot at the right time) culminating in a ring. Unfortunately the MSM considers this to be a results business but frankly, you don’t get the correct results if the process is poor.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Then the argument which you started isn't valid.

Brian Sabean is a bottom 5 GM in the majors.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This guy is trolling today

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

the Tr word

comes out when someone does agree with the AA board of directors… (eyeroll…)

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

If you don't agree

you are allowed to leave and go to another website. (eyeroll, scoff, facepalm).

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Are you serious?

If I don’t agree with you or conform to the AA dogma then you think I should go to another website?

very tolerant of you.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

You're the one complaining.

I’m just stating a fact. Nobody’s holding you hostage on this website. I’m not saying my view is right or wrong…it is but an opinion. However, if you’re going to go all primadonna on us and cry when nobody agrees with you, I’d just like to remind you that you aren’t being held hostage by this website. You can go wherever you’d like.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd like to remind you that

you’re the one getting bent out of shape cause I don’t agree with you.

you insisted that Sabean is a bad GM and I just said that rings are what matters. and I know that one stmt goes against everything this website is about… it ties people up in knots to the extent that you have people saying I’m a troll and I should leave.

to me it’s that “keyboard arrogance” and feeling of self-importance that holds this site back at times.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

But in my opinion, the rings really don't matter.

I don’t believe that just because Sabean won a ring that he’s a better GM than Andrew Friedman, Dan O’Dowd, Jed Hoyer, Alex Anthopoulos, Kevin Towers, etc all guys who haven’t won a ring.

They’ve been better at putting together teams with a better shot at winning, whereas Sabean lucked into a ring with a bunch of scrap heap pickups. That’s not a recipe for future long term success and that’s what I want.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

clearly

we’ll have to agree to disagree if you think rings don’t matter.

and btw, I believe that the playoffs are by and large a crapshoot. and I also believe in putting yourself in a position to win every year and that sometimes the ball takes bounces in your favor and other years it doesn’t…

still, there are things I think Sabean is good at now… doesn;t mean he hasn;t given out some bas contracts… so has god-Theo. GASP!

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure. Agree to disagree.

And rings really don’t matter when your team rarely gets to the playoffs. I’d love to see the Mets get to the playoffs more than once a decade before I start worrying about rings.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd be curious actually

what specifically does Sabean do that you think he’s good at? Not a malicious question here, genuinely wondering. Maybe that’ll shed some light on the difference of opinion

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

and where would that go?

You would most likely find fault that my opinion lacks proper numerical evidence.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

hey I tried man,

if you don’t want to have a discussion, thats fine. Just dont claim nobody asked.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

no, sometimes

we just give opinions and they aren’t meant to stand up to cross examination.

I think that the Giants have built a very deep pitching staff from rotation to a deep pen and even have pitching depth in the minors.

I also think that they have been good at staying flexible to assess where they are during the season and make adjustments in season in order for them to finish strong. Recent Met teams have been non-existent during the season and consequently have consistently been poor finishers.

They apparently also realize that you have to be balanced… they obviously made adjustments to add speed, defense, and power to a team that had a lot of pitching even if it was lacking in any star position players…. basically buying into the theory that there is more than 1 way to win.

But since I’m not going to support that with a WAR chart which proves what I’m saying I expect it to be scorned.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I actually think their mid-season/trade deadline flexibility is a decent point.

Whether or not the guys they added last season were really any good or just lucked into hot streaks, they did have the ability and chutzpah to get them.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 23, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

not really, most of what you said makes sense

Their rotation is quite good, and they did make some short term additions midseason which pushed them along well. I just question whether they actually got way better at making those adjustments on the fly last season than they usually are, or if they just found lightning in a bottle which is less sustainable. Sabean doesn’t exactly have a strong track record for good decisions. One way or the other it got them a WS, I’m just not sure if it’s a plan they can hope to repeat, unless they’ve changed their organizational philosophy considerably in the last year, which I suppose is possible.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 23, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Considering Sebean's or whoever's statement blasting sabermetrics after the WS

I highly doubt anything has changed philosophically.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 23, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

id imagine this is the case

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 23, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

that's sort of the point...

just b/c someone doesn’t embrace sabremetrics as much as some here do, the reaction is to ostracize them like putting Sabean on a bottom 5 list and other esoteric BS.

there’s also the little thing called a record. Sabean’s Giants have averaged 87 wins per season in 14 yrs… and finished 9 times 1st or 2nd in the division (4 times 1st).

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay record does count a little.

I gave him credit for those teams in the late 90’s-early 00’s, even though the centerpiece for them (Bonds) was already in place. But he did manage to bring in Jeff Kent and JT Snow, who were major contributors. He also got lucky when he came in in the 1997 season that two young guys in Shawn Estes and Kirk Rueter blossomed into actual starting pitchers, so I can’t give him credit for them since they were in the organization before Sabean was GM. A lot of the pieces for those teams’ success were in place and sure, he made some good moves to help build it up but he also later made a lot of moves to tear it down (how about Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and Boof Bonser for AJ Pierzynski?)

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 23, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

'nuff said?

and btw, taking chances can sometimes backfire.

Which GMs haven’t had transactions blow up on them?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

One more thing...

ostracize is a strong word in this case. How did I ostracize him by calling him a bottom 5 GM? It’s just this observer’s opinion and it shouldn’t really mean much, unless you are related to the guy or something.

The way I look at it is that I think there are a lot of GM’s out there that are solid, for the most part. There are a lot of guys who quietly go about building their teams, guys like John Mozeliak in St. Louis or Bill Smith in Minnesota who you rarely hear about, mainly because they make solid decisions that typically aren’t flashy. There’s really not much negative opinion of those guys, so in my opinion, I can’t place any of those guys on the bottom of the list. A guy like Sabean, however, I’ve seen the moves he’s made and some of them like the Zito deal or the Pierzynski trade stick out to me. I think we all can agree on the bottom 4 with Dayton Moore, Ed Wade, Jim Hendry and Ned Coletti. I’d also push Tony Reagins down there after the Vernon Wells fiasco and I’d also consider Kenny Williams to be down there as well (his moves are very Jeckyll/Hyde for my taste…he’ll make some shrewd pickup and then he’ll make a blatantly stupid one soon after).

But once again, it’s my opinion. If you want to say that Theo Epstein is the worst GM in baseball, you can say that. It’s your opinion. However, I won’t believe it and you’ll have to back it up to me.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 23, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

you realize that this is all I said...
Sabean,
you mean the one with a WS ring from last year? I wish our GMs would be that terrible.

it was a throwaway line that evidently put a few people off kilter. Not sure why that was so stunning a line to have caused all this BS.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

But that throwaway line was a response to my throwaway line

listing (in my own opinion) the five worst GM’s today in baseball. I really didn’t think anybody would care who I thought were the 5 worst GM’s in baseball.

I responded to your “throwaway line” by saying that “good results do not equal good process.” The rest was an explanation of my opinion of the situation.

You’re the one who decided to essentially say that your opinion was the right one by saying quote “sorry, it’s a results business.”

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 23, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If you are going to make a statement

you have to back it up. Those are the rules and if you don’t want to follow them, then fine. But don’t insult me by calling me a “spreadsheet jockey,” which I certainly am not.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 23, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

now you're going in circles

with all due respect. you said above that it was just your opinion (that Sabean was a bottom 5 GM) and then you say that if I disagree with that opinion I have to back it up with evidence. Frankly that makes no sense.

Of course it’s a results business and Sabean is great evidence of that. In 14 yrs he’s had a good record of success even if many don’t rank him highly. Who cares if some people rank a GM high on some list if that team never wins anything? Sports is about winning. I’m all in agreement with you that good processes usually mean good results but there is no universality over those processes.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

My knock on sabean

is that he’s made some of the most baffling, mind-bogglingly confusing roster moves and signings over the past decade or so that I can remember. Sometimes it feels the team wins in spite of him, and not because of him. Ill give you though, I didn’t realize they averaged 87 wins per for the last 14 years. Not sure how he does it, and it’s not the way I’d want a team I was cheering for run, but I guess it works for SF somehow.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 23, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

.
just b/c someone doesn’t embrace sabremetrics as much as some here do,

He doesn’t embrace it at all, he flat out rejects it and laughs it off (just like Joe Morgan). He’s willfully ignorant to the lessons sabermetrics teaches.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 23, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll see that and raise

you 1212 wins in 14 seasons, 9 times either 1st or 2nd in NL West.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 23, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure Bonds had more to do with that

Than Sabean

Scott was asked if this win meant that Rex Ryan could now be looked at as an equal of Bill Belichick's as a coach.

"Why not better? Belichick is one Mo Lewis hit from being fired," Scott said. "[Brady] don't come in we might be talking about him on the unemployment line."

by Evan_S on Feb 23, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah he really put that team on his acne covered back

for a few years

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 23, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No, you're just wrong

The rings defense never works. By that logic, Sabean is a better GM than Andrew Friedman. If you were a SF Giants fan, who’d you want as your GM: Brian Sabean or Andrew Friedman? Just because someone’s won a championship doesn’t all of a sudden make him a great GM or player. It’s the same thing as all the NFL analysts saying “Rodgers has become an elite QB” after winning the Super Bowl, when in fact he was already one of the top QBs in the league going back to last season. And I’m not entirely sure where you’re getting this “Board of Directors” from. We disagree about lots of things here.*

*Except for Dickey.

What's that about?

by Brian. on Feb 22, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you're so wound up

over one phrase I said that you’re now taking it out of context. all i said is that I couldn;t care less about GM rankings… give me rings instead.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And you took one phrase that I said way out of context too.

I listed who I believe are the 5 worst GM’s in baseball today. That has nothing to do with rings and all to do with the players they bring in through trades, through free agency and through the draft. That ranking has nothing to do with championships because being that 1 team out of 30 to win it has a lot to do with luck.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

no I didn't

I just said I’d be happy with a “bad GM” who delivered rings. That was the gist of what I said. and that caused you to go apoplectic.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't go "apoplectic."

I tried to show you the way that I saw it so that you could see the thought process of my opinion, using facts and evidence, which you then replied to by saying “sorry, but it’s a results business.” That is not facts and evidence…I took that as “sorry, but my opinion is better and more important than yours.”

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

my entire point

is that rankings are for spreadsheet jockeys (no offense) and mean squat without jewelry.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Typical "I see with my eyes" and numbers don't mean anything response.

You already threw out the “RINGS!!!” crap. Next you’ll tell us that grissony scrappyness is more important than actual talent.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Watch out...

he already called us “geeks” and “spreadsheet jockeys!”

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Bad GM's very rarely deliver said rings though.

How many rings do Omar, Ed Wade, Brian Sabean, and Jim Hendry have between them?

Answer: 1

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You;re missing that point that

World Series rings generally coincide with a good GM or a shit ton of money.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

what are you talking about?

You said Sabean was a bad GM and I said esentially that I’d take bad if it meant we were winning rings. You then tried to give me a lesson in what I should want. Clearly my point is that I’d gladly sacrifice the opinion of some geeks to get some jewelry.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The point I'm trying to make is that sure...he won a WS.

Yes he did, that’s a fact. Does that automatically make him excellent at his job? Does that erase the Zito contract from history? Does that erase the fact that his team had a horrendous farm system in the early through mid 2000’s? Does that erase the fact that the best hitter on the team for a while was the awful Bengie Molina and before that Pedro Feliz?

A World Series ring is irrelevant to my ranking. I’m talking about GM’s that make the best trades, sign players to the best contracts, and keep their farm system in solid shape. Those attributes among others are what it takes to ultimately have an organization that can be a consistent winner (and I don’t mean World Series winner…a winner as in consistently in the running for a playoff spot because that’s all you need in baseball).

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you're just putting words in my

mouth to satisfy your own agenda. I never said Sabean was a great GM or even listed any sort of ranking.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What words have I put in your mouth?

And what agenda do I have? I’m curious to know what my agenda is.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I LOVE Howie Rose

I finally met him once, in the 90’s, while hanging around the gate by LF at Shea, hoping for autographs. I said “Howie, I grew up with you!” -meaning I grew up listening to him on the radio. He goes “You’re from Bayside?”. It was pretty funny. Love Howie Rose. Love the Mets too, just like you. I’d give you a hug if we were in the same room.

Just sayin’.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

god forbid

someone doesn’t agree with the AA list. or worse, doesn;t care about its existence…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

WTF is the AA list?

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 22, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

It includes:

*The Wire
*Dickey
*The Boondocks
& some other things

What's that about?

by Brian. on Feb 22, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

mortal kombat for sega genesis

dragonforce’s inhuman rampage
taco bell’s quad steak burrito
a night at the roxbury on vhs

right guys?

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Feb 22, 2011 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Lets not forget

Cheetos
Basements (preferably mothers)
and The Simpsons

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Mistermet

It is clear and biting sarcasm. Duh.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 23, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

so bascially,

the Giants WS win doesn’t really count. Only WS won by Theo, and other “good GMs” are valid.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 22, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...this is how it goes with him.

He just tries to talk you in a circle without actually answering any questions and then gets all paranoid because we’re “saber-loving nerd worshippers!”

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 23, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i'd be amazed, but clearly he's seen something that literally nobody else has

not saying thats impossible, just highly unlikely. If they win 2 of their next 3 using the same strategy they used last year, they’ve got some of the most ridiculously good scouts on the planet when it comes to seemingly washed up players. I’m pretty sure though in 2-3 years the results will bear out my argument. Until then we’ll have to wait and see.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

where is the box for rings?

i would take rings over 9 stupid boxes.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Feb 22, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

It's next to OBP, I think.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 23, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Whoops

just saw this.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It is very very rare when any expensive acquisition plays anywhere after leaving here

     Sure once in a while you have a salary dump but money, not future on field value is the target. Maybe exchange one bad contract for another that’s about it. The rest of the time we get nothing going forward. We give up an early draft choice, get a players most expensive, injury prone years, frequently regret the signing and can’t even trade the guy for a grade C prospect at the end of it.

by t agee on Feb 22, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

heyman is pathetic

how is replacing one crappy 2b on the team with another and paying for both of them going to increase the mets’ karma? what an asshole.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

Karma doesn't even work like that, anyway.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 22, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

it does seem like heyman is unaware of the word's meaning

but it’s not like you can expect him to know what EVERY word means. what do you think he is, some person who gets paid a living to think of words for other people to read? thats ridiculous.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Feb 22, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

its true

sarcasm is like an ancient mystery to me, forever occluded by sly sportswriters and their cunning japery.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Feb 22, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Senor FatFace

Is now becoming history’s greatest victim. Bring on all the “I enjoy watching him play” posts.

Hey at least we don't have Dan Synder running the ship. D3PO for Life.

by Mookes7 on Feb 22, 2011 1:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

I agree (bully)

Its just picking on the easy target.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

recd for term: greenvalanche

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Feb 23, 2011 3:41 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I always had an odd fascination with watching him hit.

He would take two strikes. Then he had this little flicky thing that kept him in the at-bat. Maybe he would draw a walk, maybe he would flick a single, maybe he would hit a weak roller to second. It was oddly fascinating watching someone who rarely swung and rarely struck out. It was less of a train wreck than watching Frenchy hack at everything possible so that he could hit a grissiony flyout to left. I am not seeing he was good, or that his signing was justified (the four years was criminal), but I don’t have nearly the dislike that I have for Ollie (selfish lazy prick), Roberto Alomar (maybe not totally fair, but the guy went from MVP candidate to scrub on a flight from Cleveland) and Tony Fernandez (asshole who admitted to dogging it on the Mets so he could go back to the Jays).

by goquakers on Feb 22, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I just what to know

who the fucked rec’s that.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

we should just stop paying attention to Jon Heyman

he’s obviously garnering for attention…LOLie deserve more hate than Slappy, no question.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Feb 22, 2011 2:56 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I think you meant......

Luis Castillo is a great guy who sucks at baseball.

"It can't get much worse than last year.......right?" Mets 2011

by JetsMetsNets on Feb 22, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Am I the only one that lol'ed at the Title

*Vujacic Timeline*

10/18/10 - Sasha's first game as a Net.
1/5/11 - Sasha nets game winner vs. Bulls.
2/9/11 - Clutch shots in overtime combine with career high 25 points in win over Hornets.

by JetsMetsNets on Feb 22, 2011 5:39 PM EST reply actions  

Recs are for closers.

"The team is not for sale, in whole or in part. There is no need to sell, there is no reason to sell. There will be no sale."
-Dave Howard

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 22, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Put down

That coffee.

by wobatus on Feb 22, 2011 6:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

What's your name?

Fuck you. That’s my name.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Feb 22, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Caligula

Torquemada, Robespierre, Stlalin, Hitler, Pol Pot…Castillo.

by wobatus on Feb 22, 2011 6:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Walter O'Malley

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 23, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice

No one cares about Horace Stoneham.

by wobatus on Feb 23, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

OOfah!

What the hell is goin on down here!? It looks like friggin St. Patricks day with all this damn green!!

by Wright of passage on Feb 22, 2011 9:12 PM EST reply actions  

amen

I totally agree. Castillo has performed poorly, but we can’t blame him for accepting minayas contract. I would have accepted it too knowing you would hate me for sucking. He has been mediocre, but has played through pain. He hits weakly, but still hustles to first. He misses ground balls but still dives in the dirt. He should be cut very soon. And we should celebrate. But we shouldn’t hate castillo.

Perez sucks and either doesn’t know it or doesn’t care how it affects the team. Either way, he is to blame for harming the team when he should have welcomed the opportunity for a chance to learn something in triple a.

by versus on Feb 23, 2011 1:18 AM EST reply actions  

That sounds about right.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Feb 23, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Or catch one for a sick kid.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Feb 23, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish Castillo wasn't on the team, but I don't hate him

I hate Ollie, because of the reasons above, and I didn’t like Frenchy because he never tried to improve his plate discipline, and made stupid comments about it “not being on the scoreboard”. And then the comments after he left too.
It’s not Castillo’s fault his knees suck, and so what if he didn’t go to Walter Reed. As many have said, he’s not even American.

Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.

by Aidan Gibson on Feb 23, 2011 8:18 AM EST reply actions  

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