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Another Mike Pelfrey Post!

(Bumped from FanPosts. --Eric)

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As of right now, Mike Pelfrey hasn't pitched too good. To be exact, in two starts, one against the Florida Marlins in Florida, and one against the Philadelphia Phillies in Philly, he's pitched 6.1 innings, surrendering 12 hits, 11 earned runs, 2 home runs, and five walks, all while striking out three whole batters. All of that is good for an ERA of 15.63, a FIP of 8.56, and an xFIP of 6.37. According to Fangraphs, he's been worth -0.2 WAR thus far this season. To put that in other terms, Alex Cora has been more valuable in his 8 at-bats with the Nationals. He isn't in Manny Ramirez -0.4 WAR, though, thankfully. Is this reason for concern, though?

Star-divide

Just as many people are now convinced that Mike Pelfrey is a head case loser that needs to be traded as soon as possible, because he's the scummiest scum who ever scummed, last season, plenty of people were convinced that Mike Pelfrey had finished his maturation from pitching prospect to pitching ace. A lot of the same people, I'd bet, too. Two starts into the 2010 season, one against the Washington Nationals at home, and one against the Colorado Rockies in Colorado, Mike Pelfrey pitched 13 innings, surrendering 9 hits, 2 earned runs, 0 home runs, and 4 walks, all while striking out 10 batters. That was good for a 1.38 ERA. Pelfrey eventually ended the season with a respectable 3.66 ERA, 3.82 FIP, and 4.31 xFIP, good for a 2.9 WAR, according to Fangraphs. Just like Pelfrey's great start eventually regressed to the mean, and he ended with a decent season, he will very likely regress to the mean in 2011, and end with a season that is substantially better than the one that he's had thus far, two starts into the season.

Two games into the season, Mike Pelfrey is boasting a very high BABIP, .370 to be exact. This number is high, in general, and is about .60 points higher than his career norm of .308. Invariably, since this number is unsustainably high, his BABIP is going to go down. When his BABIP goes down, there will be fewer batters reaching base. When fewer batters reach base, there will be less guys scoring against him. Likewise, his HR/FB rate is up, at an unsustainable level (20.0%!). In two starts, he's given up two home runs. The "one home run a night" thing isn't going to last. Last year, it took seven starts before the opposition hit two home runs off of Pelfrey, and he ended with a final season HR/FB rate of 5.7%. His season has gotten off inauspiciously, in terms of giving up home runs, but there is no way that that 20% HR/FB rate will continue- especially since he's a groundball pitcher, and a great number of his starts will be at Citi Field, which is harder to hit home runs in than Joe Robbie Stadium Pro Player Park Pro Player Stadium Dolphins Stadium Dolphin Stadium Land Shark Stadium Sun Life Stadium and Citizen's Bank Park. Fewer home runs, fewer earned runs allowed.

Generally speaking, I believe that Pelfrey catches a lot of heat because he's the Mets' Number 1 pitcher. Being a team's Number 1 pitcher, a lot is expected of you. You're supposed to be the ace of the staff, the best pitcher the team has. Is Pelfrey the ace of the staff, the best pitcher in the rotation? Given that the Mets' rotation is composed of the enigmatic R.A. Dickey (may movement be upon his balls), sophomore Jon Niese, and reclamation projects Chris Young and Chris Capuano, the argument can be made. Personally, however, I defer to the greatness that is R.A. Dickey's 2010 season and believe that he will sustain it, making him our best pitcher. Is Pelfrey not being the best pitcher in the rotation an argument against him? In other words, do the complaints against him because he's our Number 1 pitcher have much substance to them? Was it fair of those other reindeers to make fun of Rudolph, to laugh and call him names, and not let him play in any of their reindeer games, all based on the fact that his nose was red? A pitcher doesn't magically transform into something that he's not just because he's plugged into a certain spot in the pitching rotation. Daisuke Matsuzaka, this season, is Boston's 5th starter. Is he going to magically transform into what most teams pass off as 5th starters (marginal Major Leaguers, right around replacement-level or a little better)? Or, is he going to continue as he's pitched since arriving to the bigs, albeit closer to the back of the rotation than the front of the rotation?

Unrealistic expectations of Mike Pelfrey held by the general fanbase have no impact on how Mike Pelfrey is actually going to perform, on any given start, and over the course of an entire season. Do I think that how Pelfrey has pitched so far has been good? No, it's been pretty atrocious. Do I think that he'll keep it up? No, he'll improve such that his numbers are more in line with previous seasons, and what the various projection systems calculate. That's something we're not hearing much, so far, that Pelfrey is likely going to end the season with an ERA around 4.12 (Bill James, Marcel and ZiPS projections averaged together), a FIP of 3.95, a 5.49 K/9 rate, and a 3.11 BB/9 rate, in about 200 IP. I trust the mathematical computations and extrapolations of these sources more than a two-game small sample size. Given those numbers, Mike Pelfrey isn't really that bad at all. He's not a world-beater, but he never was a world-beater, and I don't think anyone who's aware of how baseball works actually ever realistically expected him to be a world-beater. You need your flashy, really good ace, but after him, you also need your generic, run-of-the-mill pitchers who can pitch a decent amount of innings while keeping you in games. Mike Pelfrey is that man. Nothing more, nothing less.

When might Mike Pelfrey right the ship? Well, tomorrow's game against the Rockies might be a good place to bet.  Over the course of his career (that's seven starts and 41 total innings pitched), he's 5-2 against the Rockies, with a 2.63 ERA. He's historically struck out 6.6 Rockies per nine innings, while walked 3.3 Rockies per nine innings. Also, he'll be pitching at Citi Field. Over the course of his career, he's almost two entire runs better at home (that includes Shea Stadium as well) than on the road. He's given up 20 home runs in 402 innings at home, as opposed to the 31 he's given up in 287.1 innings on the road. Opposing batters slug nearly .100 points lower against Pelfrey when he's pitching at home than they do when he's pitching on the road. So, that streak of a home run every game that he dubiously has right now? Expect it to snap. The ERA upwards of 15? Expect it to shrink dramatically.

So, in short: Let's wait a few more starts before pronouncing Pelfrey undesirable and calling for Sandy to jettison him. Over the past couple of years, we've had plenty of reasons to work ourselves into tizzys. There's no reason to purposely work ourselves into one, on a mostly non-issue. As keithprime humorously called it, there's no reason to Joe Beningo-ize ourselves just yet.

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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If he was pitching in Florida or KC

he’d be an ace. He just doesn’t have the mental maturity/ makeup to handle NY. Maybe in a lesser pressure City he can handle the ups and downs. He’ll be crusing through 5innings then the wheels fall off and let the snowball begin. He has a fragile psyche not fit for NY. I like Pelf think he’s a decent number 4 or 5. But the pressure here is not in his make up to suceed.

by TheKid08 on Apr 11, 2011 1:14 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

This.

Here are Mike Pelfrey’s numbers while “in the spotlight of New York”:

402.2 Innings Pitched, 3.60 ERA, 237 Ks, 131 BBs, 20 HRs, .265 Batting Average Against, .331 OBP Against

Here are Mike Pelfrey’s numbers outside of "the blinding lights of New York:

287.1 Innings Pitched, 5.54 ERA, 154 Ks, 123 BBs, 31 HRs, .309 Batting Average Against, .380 OBP Against

How do you measure mental maturity, anyway? When the wheels come off, how do you know it’s because he lacks whatever mental fortitude is needed? Maybe he’s overthinking, is analyzing things too much. Maybe, for each game where he hit a wall and really didn’t recover, there’s a strange but equally realistic reason- in one game, he had a really bad mosquito bite on his palm, which didn’t allow him to get a good grip on his sinker or split-change; in another one he was suffering from a really bad wedgie that he couldn’t fix until the inning was over, hampering his performance; in another one, a former girlfriend was sitting behind home plate, yelling obscene things at him and making crude gestures…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

weather he pitches well on the road

the 50 reporters follow him and ask him questions. The media presence is less in a say Florida Marlins team. I feel the stress and scrutiny of the media after every game along with the fact that he easily loses focus hampers his abilty.

by TheKid08 on Apr 11, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're free to speculate idly.

We’re just as free to nod politely and say, “I’m not sure that’s it.”

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Apr 11, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea

i’m not sure that’s it. these guys are professionals, they’ve been playing baseball their whole lives. i would think by this point, they know how to block out the stadium and focus on the job at hand. outside the stadium its new york, sure…but inside its just him on that mound doing what he’s trained to do.

by cntrlalt on Apr 11, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

You DRTFA, did you?

It’s two starts, on the road, where he’s historically a much worse pitcher. Just because a guy needs to see a psychologist doesn’t make him a ‘head case’, or that he’s got a fragile psyche. Please, let’s leave the armchair diagnoses out of this.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tom Server?

Damn, I hate typing on smartphones.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Um,

ever heard of Josh Johnson and Ricky Nolasco?

Pelfrey would be a 3 in Florida.

"You're Darryl Strawberry!" "Yes?" "You play right field!" "Yes?" "Well, are you better than me?" "I've never met you.... but.... yes."

by Five-Tool Tool on Apr 11, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally

I’d probably put Anibal Sanchez ahead of Pelf too. He misses more bats and saw a major improvement in BB/9 last year with a career best 3.2 BB/9.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd put Chris Volstad ahead of Pelfrey too

Just because I like Chris Volstad.

traveling photoshooper.
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@sparbz

by sparbz on Apr 12, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'd be a 5 then, haha.

"You're Darryl Strawberry!" "Yes?" "You play right field!" "Yes?" "Well, are you better than me?" "I've never met you.... but.... yes."

by Five-Tool Tool on Apr 12, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

i rec'd this

simply so i could un rec it

What Would Matt Szczur Do?

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Apr 12, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

False.

Mike Pelfrey will be Mike Pelfrey wherever he goes. On the Mets he is miscast as an “ace.” If he hopped on the 7, transferred at Grand Central and then took the 4 to the Bronx, Pelfrey would be a 3 or a 4 (depending on whether you believe Hughes’ drop in velocity is permanent.)

Basically, if he played for a different team IN THE SAME CITY he would be viewed in a much different light and I doubt he would be considered a head case. Rather, he’d be the “quirky” 4th starter on a World Series contender.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really hope that he can pull it together tomorrow

I am gonna be at that game and a blowout would not exactly make my day.

by Shevshevy on Apr 11, 2011 2:09 AM EDT reply actions  

I think its all mental....

I also think an underrated aspect of this is Josh Thole’s inexperience, Barajas and Blanco we’re leaders whether we liked them or not and that presence is missing right now for young Pelf…The ability to handle a staff is a very important attribute

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

He's had success with Thole

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thole wasn't on the team when he started out 10-1 last year...

And the Blanco’s Barajas were…It speaks to his psyche that little comfort level things like that throw him off so much…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This.

You can look into it all you want but the bottom line is that he’s just purely mediocre. He’s not an ace and imagining that he is an ace just won’t make him an ace.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think the "fan expectations" of Mr. Pelfrey is unjustified because of the bonus he recieved

and hype the brass pumped him up to be…I remember Rick Peterson saying something akin to Pelfrey being a “future Ace”….

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well the hype early on was pretty justified.

He was the 9th overall pick and was actually thought to go higher than that, but fell due to the typical Boras money demands. He was a kid with an excellent fastball that (supposedly) sat 94-97 and was said to have a solid curveball, albeit one that could use work tightening up. Once he signed, he dominated the minors just based off his fastball but never really developed even average offspeed stuff (not helping was the fact that Peterson had him scrap the curve for a changeup).

I agree that the hype ended up being unjustified but at the time, it certainly wasn’t. At this point, we should really be thankful that we at least have a major league pitcher on our hands, even if he’s just mediocre, and not a complete bust as many first rounders end up being.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 13, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh I agree, but I was merely pointing out that maybe this is why some fans

[not me, obviously] still hold onto the fact that “he may turn into something”. You’re right Mistermet….at least he doesn’t stink completely, he IS a very serviceable pitcher, which is better than a complete burn out.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

His College coach saw him last year

And was quoted as saying “He threw a lot harder in college” Pelfrey was/is a 1.5 pitch pony, that you don’t know if his 2 seamer is going to be good or not. When its on, he can be a very good pitcher. When its off, he gets lit up. Pelfrey doesn’t have that swing and miss pitch that would take him to the next level. I am surprised having Santana, and Pedro he hasn’t been working on a change up more.

by Joshuah on Apr 14, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't know if pelfrey's trouble is thole related or not

but the fact that dickey has had success with thole doesn’t answer the question. dickey is clearly a cerebral guy who is incredibly mentally prepared and focused, with his own unique game plan. my guess is that he dictates to thole (or any catcher) how he plans to work. not really a useful comparison. whether you think pelfrey has mental issues on the mound or not, i think it is safe to say he is no dickey in that regard.

by njk237 on Apr 11, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

rec'd

@ Ogre, I have to agree with n7 on that. Also consider Dickey is really a one pitch pitcher with an occasional fastball or change of speed and he’s not the bedwetter Pelfrey is…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did u see the game against San Fran a couple of years ago with all the balks..

He is indeed a head case. He has shown that he can control it, and when he does he gets close to Ace type results, when he dosen’t he sucks simple as that.

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know...

But he can be a solid 2 if he works out the yips permanently…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

No he can't.

An ace doesn’t have a freakin’ 5.0 K/9. Do you realize what that means? An average of 5 strikeouts per nine innings is absolutely putrid. The less strikeouts a pitcher gets means that more balls are put in play. The more balls are put in play by the opposing team, the larger chance there is for a major fluctuation of good or bad luck. A lot of Pelfrey’s issues on the mound come from big swings of luck, due to the amount of baseballs hit into play. A strikeout is a guaranteed out 99 out of 100 times. A ball that is put into play…anything could happen. It could be turned into an out, but it could also drop between fielders, sneak through a hole, be turned into an error by a fielder, etc.

Strikeouts cut down the opportunities for luck, good or bad because a strikeout is a nearly guaranteed end result.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

--sarcasm alert-- YES he IS!

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is stupid and ignorant

Did YOU watch that game. The first balk was a joke of a call, and the second was almost as weak. Talk about SSS.

by Joshuah on Apr 14, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd so many times

Trying to make medical assumptions about his “problem” in our position as bloggers, we are about as likely to be correct as picking the winning lottery numbers. Its a useless exercise unless Pelf is your patient

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

and should we remove David Wrong's tongue too? heh

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't know if your reply was at all directed to me

i’ll assume it wasn’t because you wholly failed to adress the logical misstep i suggested you made.

let me try again to reiterate my point, hopefully you won’t lose your shit this time.
someone suggested the problem might be pelfrey’s rapport (for lack of a better term) with thole. attempting to defeat that suggestion, you said, well thole has no trouble with dickey. i then said that such a comparison is not really valid considering the clear differences between thole and dickey. i did not say that it was in fact the case that thole and pelfrey cannot work together, or that pelfrey had terrible mental issues. my point was that i think it is safe to say that pelfrey (and 99%) of pitchers out there, are not as unflappable, poised, and mentally focused as dickey. dickey is unique because he is a knuckleballer – the strategy and mentality of a knuckleballer, i would think, are differant from traditional pitchers. thus, to say that because thole has no problem with dickey, that thole has no problem with pelfrey, is not an accurate logical leap. how about next time less rant more contemplated response?

by njk237 on Apr 11, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

No that wasn't directed at you (hence it being nested under TRJFP and not you). It was directed at people who insist on playing armchair psychiatrist by way of a TV.

Clearly Dickey and Pelfrey are two different people. That said, if Thole is so bad as to make Pelfrey have psychological troubles, you’d expect it to effect everyone on the staff to some degree. Parnell had a great year last year and a good start to this one. Young has had a great start as well (this is of course ignoring that judgment off of 2 starts is misguided whether it be Pelf or Young). If Thole was causing problems with Pelfrey, why are these guys so unaffected? Chucking up Pelfrey’s trouble to everything other then physical talent/ability is lazy and misinformed.

And Thole doesn’t even call the game. He gets signals from the bench.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

my question to you would be

is poor performance by a baseball player ever due, in whole or in part, to poor mental makeup?

by njk237 on Apr 11, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

In part? Maybe. I don't think anyone would say that Knoblauch's throwing troubles for instance, were solely physical.

But that said, we are far, far from qualified to make judgments if they are. Even if someone on AA is an actual psychologist, they would’t be in a position to make any claims if they were.

And this is still ignoring the inanity of making any judgments based off of 2 starts.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop psychoanalyzing players like Chuck Knoblauch and Chris Truby from your armchair!

Anyway, it’s clear that Pelfrey is allergic to Thole. How can people not see that? It’s only after mound visits from Thole that Pelfrey’s “cannibal tremors” are exacerbated to the point where he gives up runs.

Actually, it can be interesting and occasionally useful (and, hell, fun!) to psychoanalyze people from a distance. You didn’t need a phd from Yale in psychoanalysis to know that Joaquin Andujar and Albert Belle had issues.

by Brian Singer on Apr 16, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Their mental makeup is different...

The betwetter comment was probably uncalled for but the yips and the lack of mental toughness we see when he’s cursing at himself coming apart is what makes him different from others…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Green'd.

Hard. Garza is some sort of folk hero all because his team made the playoffs. Pelfrey’s a psychotic loser who needs to be locked up in a straight jacket because his team sucks.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I call this the Ryan Leaf, Brett Farve syndrome

Both were douchebags who yelled at opposing players, said dumb stuff, but one was good.

by Joshuah on Apr 14, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have to admit that part of the reason for the difference in their reps

is that Garza IS in fact better than Pelfrey. That suggests that Garza does a better job of channeling his emotions than Pelfrey does.

by Brian Singer on Apr 16, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Except that he's not.

He’s been worth about 0.2 fWAR more over the last 3 years.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 16, 2011 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

This so much

Pelf gets a lot of undue flack about that. Name me one other pitcher in baseball that has had to suffer from such a made-up, nonsense, hokey, supersitious, ridiculous and meaningless diagnosis as yips?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garza's more consistent than pelfrey

Over a season the numbers are similar, but pelf can go out and have a bad month or 2 in a row before he figures it out..

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares who is more consistent

if over a season they have near identical value?

And all I was talking about the way they are perceived. Pelfrey get’s labels as a “head case” because he bites his glove and collar. Garza gets labeled as “intense” because he yells at the dirt and the inside of his jersey. To bring another name into the mix, just look at Papelbon. He gets lauded for the intensity he brings when he’s just a goofy kid doing his thing. If the Red Sox hadn’t won a championship, he’d be called unprofessional and childish.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares who is more consistent??!!

Is that really a serious question???My point is Pelf has a higher ceiling and if he could be that 10-1 or 9-1 or whatever the fuck it was if he works through his, and i’ll say it again “mental” issues….

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You miss my point.

I said:

Who cares who is more consistent if over a season they have near identical value?
And maybe you feel the way you do because you’re assuming wins = talent, when in reality, they don’t.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your point is wrong...

He can in long stretches pitch very well… They need him to get to there and fall not completely off the wagon when he struggles…And its not only wins look up his era from his first 10 starts or so last year or all the other stats i don’t have the slightest idea about…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

ERA is just as useless as wins

in determining a pitcher’s value. Yes, he can pitch very well in stretches. But he is not, and will never be, an ace.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is wrong

ERA is a good stat, just not the only stat to evaluate a player. ERA is the average number of runs that pitcher gave up. That is a real actual thing.

by Joshuah on Apr 14, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

"ERA is a good stat" is debatable.

It’s okay for telling you what happened but not necessarily good at telling you performance level. It doesn’t take into account defense or luck. I much prefer FIP, BABIP and LD%. It’s kind of like RBI.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 14, 2011 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess ERA is useful in the context that it tells how well a pitcher pitches

given a specific defense behind him. Until defensive statistics become much more advanced however, it would be difficult to pair the two in a meaningful way as to draw a useful conclusion about how a pitcher would fare on another team. That’s not to say that one day ERA couldn’t actually prove useful, just that it isn’t now.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 14, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I use ERA as a general metric to see how a guy is.

There will be discrepancies between ERA and FIP, or xFIP, or ERA+, or ERA and all of the other pitching metrics, but generally speaking, the higher a guy’s ERA is, the worse he is (with or without a good/bad defense), and the lower a guy’s ERA is, the better he is (with or without a good/bad defense). You’re never going to have a guy like Roy Halladay (a very good pitcher no mater what stat you use to quantify it) with a bad ERA, over the course of a season.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 15, 2011 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah it's ok as a back of the envelope check on a guy

Although it depends on the pitcher type as to how important the defense behind him is. Strikeout guys you can tell pretty well from ERA if they’re good or not, groundball/flyball pitchers are a bit more difficult to read with ERA alone (our flyball pitchers probably look awful right now because our left field defense has been atrocious for example). Overall, while ERA isn’t a fantastic stat, it does give you a gut-check about whether a pitcher is pitching well or badly. I think ERA is better for comparing the same pitcher between different years than it is to compare two different pitchers though.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 15, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

But that ERA was unsustainable.

His K/BB ratio pointed to the fact that he was in a swing of very generous luck, just like he’s currently in a swing of very poor luck at the moment (his .387 BABIP points to said bad luck).

Wins and Losses don’t mean a damn thing and ERA does little in terms of future projection. Take a look at the things that he only controls…his walks, strikeouts, home runs etc. They’ve remained nearly static the past three seasons and when you look at them, they add up to a mediocre pitcher. 5.1 K/9 is putrid. 3.32 BB/9 is way too high for a guy who K’s so few batters. His saving grace is that he doesn’t give up a ton of home runs, and that seems to be greatly helped by his home parks.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe Garza is more consistent

because he’s a more consistent pitcher. nothing to do with head problems or Pelfs lack of confidence, but strictly the fact that it’s really fucking hard to repeat the same motion 100 times in a row exactly the same way. Some people will be better than others at it, and even subtle differences in delivery from one pitcher to the next can make two seemily identical pitchers on the surface have very different reproducibility. Perhaps nothing is “wrong” with Pelf at all per se, and he’s just a bit less precise about his pitching motion.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 11, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Game one..

He pitched well and threw one bad pitch to buck…Game 2 he was making some really good pitches and then when a couple things didn’t go his way the floodgates opened. We could debate mechanics all day but loses confidence and everything goes to hell after..I also think approach and gamecalling has been an issue, thats all…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

but theres no evidence that his confidence is affecting his mechanics in any way

I’ve got a pretty good idea of how i’m going to do a proper analysis of this later, hopefully it’ll help clear this up a bit, but i’d hazard a guess his mechanics go bad and he starts pitching poorly and getting mad, and not that he gets mad because he gives up hits and then his mechanics suffer afterwards.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 11, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Oy.

You seem overmatched by this conversation…do you even understand what we’re talking about?

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

The thing I used to love about Leiter above all else

Was the way he went at himself on the mound. It was hilarious. Loved it. Pelfrey’s pitching troubles are PITCHING troubles, why is that so hard to credit?

by SuperT on Apr 11, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which we shouldn't be having anyway

Someone said in the game thread that he is a sinkerballing, ground ball, middle of the rotation, innings eater guy who if we were rational about this we would be thrilled to have

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

True but he's also

A guy that’ll stink it up for a long stretch if they don’t find a way to “fix” him…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn't need "fixing"!!!

He is what he is and whatever we propose will have no effect. End of story

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just stop it.

You’re way out of your league on this issue.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pelf

I don’t think hes got much mentality issues or ’can’t handle NY’; I think thats mostly garbage. Hes simply a pitcher who gets exposed by lefties and non-Citi Field parks. Probably the true talent of a #5 type but can appear a lot better than that thanks to his friendly home park.

by nmigliore on Apr 11, 2011 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

# 5's...

Dont have 9-1, 10-1 streaks…The stuff is there, I really think its mental, and the gameplanning has been poor. I usually support Warthen but he needs to get off his sarcastic ass and do some coaching…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

.
I really think its mental

Well now that we have your professional opinion based off of your vast experience talking and interacting with Pelfrey we finally have that squared away. Thank god for that!

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I've never seen a guy who's a big stud, with a great arm...

And great pitches, who has such negative body language…Like he dosen’t beleive in himself. One bad thing happens and then the floodgates open with him. I’m not fucking Dr. Phil but thats how I read his body language. When he pitches well for a period he just looks completly different…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'll say it again:

Well now that we have your professional opinion based off of your vast experience talking and interacting with Pelfrey we finally have that squared away. Thank god for that!

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Did you ever watch Leiter?

The very same. There was no blogging at the time, so who knows what “head-case” memes might have taken hold if there had been, but he routinely stomped around the mound yelling at himself when things went bad. And yet, was reasonably successful at pitching.

The two things can co-exist, which I think means one is not the cause or the result of the other.

by SuperT on Apr 11, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

This

Correlation =/= causation

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it's not nearly as funny when you bring facts into it.

I really thought he didn’t; must have gotten him confused with some other talk show host who dispenses medical advice to strangers.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 15, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

W-L records

Really? Anyway, both the the advanced stats and traditional stats lay it out pretty thoroughly; hes just not very good against lefties and his road struggles strongly indicate hes benefited from Shea/Citi. Take him out of Citi and he’ll probably look more like a #5.

by nmigliore on Apr 11, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

It’s impossible for a back-of-the-rotation starter to have a winning streak? The wrongness of that statement boggles the mind. Even one single season of baseball is filled with otherwise unspectacular players having a couple of weeks where everything just clicks for them. I remember Jeff Manto once had a streak so hot, the Hall of Fame asked for his bat. Hell, look no further than Jeff Francoeur last year: in March and April, he hit 4 HRs and put up a .284/.355/.531 line, good for a 138 OPS+. He finished the season with 13 HRs and a .249/.300/.383.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Jakobs.

Enough said.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pelfrey's stuff is there? really? Ace pitchers know how to pitch with a lack of velocity and WITH velocity

They also have three-four different pitches, including a reliable slow pitch; none of which Pelfrey has. the winning streaks are a bad way of judging how good a pitcher is. he can be 11-2 with an ERA around 5. If the team scores more than 2 runs a game the pitcher wins, no matter how bad he is. by the way, most of the radar readings, if you believe in them of Pelfrey’s stuff hasn’t hit mid 90s in a LONG time.

if reply fail…this is to real julio

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know if he was telegraphing it

But it seemed like hitters were getting aware of which counts he threw it on and started sitting on it more.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the league adjusted to it

and knew to lay off because it was rarely thrown for a strike (IIRC).

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what I figured, but I don't have the pitch F/x to support it

From observation though, it had a lot of late drop which is why hitters were biting early I think

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm asking Garik for the Pitch f/x data

Gonna look at it, and see what’s what, see if I notice anything.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This response nails it . . .

Pelf is all about swings and misses. He does not get enough. His bad K rate can work with 65% groundballs, but he really doesn’t do that. If he could bump up to 7ks per 9, he could settle in as a 200 inning pitcher with an ERA+ of 110, which is very solid. I just don’t have faith that he can get there.

by goquakers on Apr 12, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Looking it up on fangraphs

two starts in Pelfrey has thrown his fastball less than ever and his slider more than ever. I wonder what that’s about.

by graves9 on Apr 11, 2011 5:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, he did say that tonight he was going back to the fastball and slider

We’ll see what results

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or he was playing around with new pitches...

We should ignore the games he won while throwing to Thole last season right?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thole doesn't even call the game.

He looks into the dugout for the call.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I actually started to assemble the data from B-Ref to disprove this inanity,

but I really do have better things I could be doing, and it’s still not going to convince Julio, anyway.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop it.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Please.

Just stop…you’re making yourself look more naive every comment you make.

And yes…I meant to reply twice. I really want him to stop.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really??

The point of this site is to banter back and forth. If we all had the same opinion and just patted each other on the butt for what we said what would be the point?

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

a lot of that was late night frustration from the game.

Anywho, I understand you’re entitled to your opinion, so go ahead and have it. However, calling him an ace or a #2 is just a pipe dream at this point, not steeped in any sort of reality of what Mike Pelfrey really objectively is. Maybe you think he could be that and the thing is, when he was drafted, he was thought of as a future ace. He had the excellent fastball to go along with what was deemed a solid curveball and he just needed to work on a third pitch. The problem is that he scrapped the curve, went to a slider and then they decided to turn him into a sinkerballer instead of working on his secondary stuff. Once he got to the big leagues, the guy was all fastball with mediocre secondary stuff and that’s where he is today. He’s really just a two pitch pitcher and those two pitches are not dominant. Good but not dominant. He’s also got 3+ seasons of data to back this off of that says he’s mediocre and the data hasn’t changed a bit in that time (again, look at his K’s, BB’s, HR’s, etc…he’s incredibly consistent season to season. Consistently mediocre).

Sorry to snap like that but while you are allowed to have your opinion, it doesn’t make Pelfrey an ace just to say he’s an ace. He has to pitch like it and he hasn’t because his tools are quite underwhelming (other than his fastball and even that is a bit underwhelming…he was sitting 91-93 with it last night).

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Its cool bro...

The Mets are like a dumb hot chick, you love to watch her but she pisses u off….

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point of this site is to make arguments and observations about the Mets and baseball based on factual claims and data.

Not saying something, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and calling it “banter”.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

That reads like something

a sweaty protagonist would recite in a Frank Capra film. Chill. People are people. You can’t force them into an artificially removed statistical analysis of absolutely every aspect of the game of baseball. When a bull charges you, you jump out of the way. You don’t Google bovine aggression statistics. No one is saying that Pelfrey has X or Y disorder straight outta the DSM-IV. They’re saying he has problems dealing with pressure.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

this.

also, as a means of splitting the difference, I lobby for shoop of Marine Drill Sargent Sandy reading the riot act to jackwagon Pelf…..sparbz?

"this is not live." - Lindsey Nelson

by MilnerTime on Apr 12, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is a place for intelligent discourse.

Saying Pelf “has problems dealing with pressure” is not intelligent discourse. It’s no different that ESPN saying that Jeter’s heart is what makes him the best SS is the game today or that Eckstein’s grission make him a better option than Reyes if the Mets every want to be “winners”. It’s the same thing that leads people to cheer for Francoeur one minute and turn around an boo David Wright the next.
I don’t know how you can be okay with that.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeebus

I’m sorry we aren’t living up to your standards and bathing your no doubt superior mind with the warm, slightly acrid (yet strangely appley sweet!) “intelligent discourse” you crave. Do we have to talk about physiological effects of anxiety before you’ll grace us with your commentary? Pass.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

And many of your posts regarding various "metrics"

add nothing, because this whole discussion could be a set of links to FanGraphs.

And though Joe Morgan may be maddeningly resistant to incorporating statistics into his analysis, some dude posting on a blog is most decidedly NOT “better” than Joe Morgan at contributing to discussion of baseball. Or disucsion.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That hurts.

None of us is better at discussing baseball than Joe Morgan? Have you ever heard that man talk about baseball? If he were here, he’d be blathering about competitive spirit, the heart of a champion, and all those useless cliches. Not to mention that when he was wrong (which was often), he literally refused to admit his mistake, even if it was incidental. That kind of obstinacy makes him better at talking about baseball than us?

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 12, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

He's a maddening analyst

But . . .

OK, fine, he sucks and is mean-spirited at times, but he IS a hall-of-famer (deservedly), and he could have something to say about, say, hitting mechanics, positioning at second, etc. the problem here is you can’t completely discount your observations just because you’re aware of the possibility of bias. We don’t have to have double-blinded lineup constructions and things like that. We can observe things and SPECULATE. Did The Real Julio ever say “I believe Mike Pelfrey has X disorder”? No — he said the guy throws some good games and appears to get the “yips”, whcih keeps him from throwing his best stuff more often. Just over and over screaming about how he’s not a psychiatrist and republishing Pelfrey’s career numbers doesn’t add anything.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

He said "I think its all mental...."

Then went on to blame Thole for Pelfrey’s struggles.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just when I though I was out.....

My point at its most basic is that Pelfreys troubles may very well be less physical than anything else…Regarding the Thole comment, I “think”, not “know for a fact” that the inexperience factor may be affecting him. There are catchers that have made a career at being good at handling pitchers and hopefully Thole will be one soon. He just isn’t yet “IN MY OPINION”.

Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.

by Aidan Gibson on Apr 16, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just because somebody is good at something

doesn’t mean they’re any good at explaining it. In sports, the best coaches are typically the guys who weren’t all that great at playing the sport because it didn’t come naturally to them. They had to think and create a mindset to build them up to the level they got to, whereas some people are great because they are naturally talented and don’t need to think about it. They just do it.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

This isn't right though

Just because Joe Morgan is an explayer doesn’t mean he’s in a better position to talk about baseball than we are. In many sports, journalists are regarded as the better pundits because they take an objective view, not the “I played the game” view!

As for “some dude posting on a blog”, this person may turn out to be a journalist in the near future.
And in most scenarios, journalists are better than ex-players.
So what BobbyV and everyone else is saying does have value. It’s not a series of links back to fangraphs. Fangraphs just gives you the data. These guys are interpreting it.

Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.

by Aidan Gibson on Apr 16, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

You've summed up what I've been trying to say

in a single post. You sir, should be a writer. A rec for you.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

nicely done

let me fix this, tho………

In short: Sure, Pelfrey throws hard and looks the part, but his secondary stuff is very mediocre, if that. Watch any Pelfrey start and note how many 2 strike counts he get to yet he is unable to put the hitter away. This is why he doesn’t go deep into games – hitters foul off his 2 strike offerings because he doesn’t have a wicked out pitch to get swings and misses. Pelfrey = Maine

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 12, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

thank you Keithprime

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

The evidence I see is that he gets as hot as he gets cold and if....

He could repeat what he does when he is successful more consistently the results would be consistently better…And I feel something other than a physical issue prevents that..To say he had a great stretch in the beginning of 2010 and say because he didn’t k alot of batters and say its due do luck is something I don’t agree with..But you know, its all good Ogre…

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone has good streaks.

However, when those good streaks are not accompanied by better supporting numbers (K/9, B/9, HR/9; things a pitcher directly controls), then those good streaks cannot be assumed to be reflective of true talent level. In Pelfrey’s good streaks, his supporting numbers aren’t significantly better than on average. Therefore, Pelfrey’s good streaks shouldn’t be taken as reflective of true talent level.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

It’s hard to write an objective post on Pelfrey. And you nailed it

Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.

by Aidan Gibson on Apr 11, 2011 6:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Yelling aside, I just wanted to say that this is very well written

and echo what BM said, this is really well done

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 6:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I speculate Alex Ovechkin eats babies and kicks puppies.

I have no evidence to back this up, but from watching him play a handful of games on TV against the Rangers, Sabres, Penguins, Islanders, and Devils, I think he looks like he enjoys eating babies and kicking puppies. Is that speculation okay?

(and yes, I saw on your profile that you are a Capitals fan).

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's a very

artificially analytic way of looking at these things. All “speculation” is not equal. I suppose hits vs. errors or line drives vs. foul balls is also too fallible to be trusted. Ergo, we can’t trust any of your statistics either.

Frankly, I could care less if Ovechkin is a jerk. Judging by his appearance, I doubt he eats puppies or whatever, but he may have doodled a buffalo hunt on the wall with charcoal and ochre once or twice.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even though I think you were being artificially analytic, FIP, K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 use neither hits vs. errors or line drives vs. foul balls.

Both speculation wrt Pelfrey and mental issues and speculation wrt Ovechkin eating babies are formed not only from limited information, but from limited and poor information. Therefore, such speculation should not be exercised let alone encouraged.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

do you actually think that this hyperbolic "analogy" is useful?

do you actually think “part of pelfrey’s problem might be (or even seems to be) mental” is akin to “alex ovechkin eats babies”? you’re engaging in an obnoxious combination of putting words and ridiculous arguments into peoples mouths.

i like stats too, i think they are helpful. i also think that part of mike pelfrey’s problem is mental. i make this determination based on watching what he does, and listening to what he says, over the past 4-5 years. this is not “blind.” please, as right as you think you are, you are being incredibly sanctimonius. most of us aren’t a bunch of morons screaming “P3LF SUX HEZ CRAZYY”, so stop acting like that is the case.

by njk237 on Apr 12, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Don't like the "Ovechkin looks like he enjoys eating babies" example? Fine.

How about KeithMustache’s “cannibal tremors” example here.
They are both hyperbolic, yes, but they hyperbolic to highlight that people are jumping to conclusions wrt Pelfrey based off of limited information and evidence that is highly susceptible to observation bias.
I’m not putting words in anyones mouth. All I’m saying is that we are not in a position to make any claims on Peflrey’s psyche.

as right as you think you are

In order to think I’m right, I’d have to be making a truth claim. Saying “we are not in a position to make any claims on Peflrey’s psyche” is distinctly the lack of making a truth claim.

And I’m being sanctimonious? Show me where I’m being hypocritical and I’ll take back my argument on this subject.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

hey, at least the cannibal hypothesis is based on a directly observable event

that being, mike pelfrey consuming himself.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Not meant as an attack. Quite the opposite actually.

I thought it was a very good example of how diagnosing Pelfrey through a TV is a misguided affair.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha don't worry it was definitely false indignation

probably should have been in @’s

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's all good.

In debates like these it can be hard to have the sarcasm detector working at full capacity. I figured it was tongue-in-cheek anyway.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

always a good assumption with regards to anything i say

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Truth claim"

You’re revealing yourself a pedantic lover of logic tables. I’m just trying to figure out Pelfrey’s means of “pitching-in-the-world.”

No, actually, I’m just trying to chat about baseball with some interesting folks. There’s no need for this kind of . . . dogma.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You act as if being logical is a bad thing.

And in order to “expose myself” I’d have to be trying to hide something. But if we’re going to play that game, your use of “pedantic” exposes yourself a didactic, pretentious ass.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow

pot, kettle, etc. Do the math.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're on this level are we?

Big guns time: The Sabres are going to be ass-boned by the Flyers. You will be crying salty tears before your Pat LaFontaine Fathead.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

A Lalalalalalafontaine Fathead would be pretty cool.

It’s going to be funny when the Capitals revert to their choke-tastic was yet again. If not at the hands of King Henrik, I sincerely hope the get bounced by the Pens (again).

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not this year

This year, we sucked for much of the year. Peaking at the right time. Straight shot to Lord Stanley. If anyone beats us, IT WILL BE US.

Actually, I’m not a huge hockey fan. So, I won’t really care that much either way.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

"P3LF SUX HEZ CRAZYY",

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“Beningo”!!!!!

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whereas the truth

is something that’s complete conjecture based on the assumption that mental makeup doesn’t come into play? There is plenty of data that Pelfrey is not tiring. Sometimes he has his heavy sinker, and he pitches well. when he gets the “yips”, he doesn’t. It’s very easy to create a post-hoc narrative where wildness, sudden loss of movement, etc., are all just “talent” playing itself out. But that doesn’t really explain anything. All of a sudden the heavy sinker is being crushed because of “adjustments”? Well, no, it’s actually staying up in the strike zone.

You often hear this ridiculous justification for ignoring the mental aspect of baseball: well, these guys are all really good, and you don’t get to that level without confidence and chemistry and pressure, etc., being negligible. Read the “Amazin Avenue Annual.” Specifically, Dickey’s interview. He points out a different consequence of the uniformly spectacular talent — things like team chemistry are how there starts to be some separation between these master athletes. It is incredibly hard to maintain, day in and day out, the focus necessary to compete against a bunch of other people who are every bit as talented. That’s why the psychology is so ridiculously important, why Danny Ainge does “brain-typing”, why every professional sports team on the planet does reams of profiling of different players, etc.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

...he got the yips once.

In that game in San Francisco when he balked a bunch of times and fell off the mound.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Kobe Bryant refused to shoot in the 4th Quarter of a playoff game.

And Scottie Pippen refused to take the floor when Phil Jackson drew up a play for Kukoc at the end of a game.

Shit happens. Players are human. We all do stupid or bizarre things. Difference is, my quirks aren’t being watched by millions of people and analyzed in the blogosphere.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

But why classify is as "the yips?"

Your point about the mental aspect being a factor in separating the supremely talented is dead on (MIchael Jordan, anyone?) However, just because Mike Pelfrey lacks Herculean focus doesn’t make him a mental case.

When his sinker stays up it’s likely due to fatigue, be it mental or physical. You’re right, it’s possible (and probably likely) that Pelfrey does lose focus. But I doubt it’s because he’s some kind of head case. Due to his repertoire, Pelfrey has a very small margin for error. Thus, he must be incredibly focused with every pitch. As I mentioned above, when he gets 2 strikes on a hitter you see the same refrain: FOUL, FOUL, FOUL, FOUL. This is exhausting both mentally and physically (shit, it exhausts me watching it, so how do you think it effects Pelf?!) Whereas if Pelfrey had a killer slider, he’d get more strikeouts and save himself the physical and mental exhaustion of those 2 strike battles.

Again, no matter how you slice it: be it statistics, scouting, or your point about the best of the best having superior mental focus we all arrive at the same conclusion: Big Pelf is an average MLB pitcher. NOT AN ACE.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one said he was a mental case

OK, people did. But it’s hyperbole, was my point. No one really, honestly thinks that Mike Pelfrey has a serious psychological problem. (And maybe he does — Bill Pulsipher did, and I doubt it helped his career. Certainly Zack Greinke got a lot better when he got his anxiety in order.) But really, the issue is that on the spectrum between bear down Joe Montana and happy feet Rex Grossman, he’s Grossmanesque.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough. However,

that being said, Pelfrey having difficulty handling pressure isn’t notable. If that is truly what causes him to have those in game issues then it makes him painfully normal.

Again, the fact that he does have incredible hot streaks shows that he can, in fact, handle pressure.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok.

first, i didn’t make any judgments on his visit to the psychologist, i said it spoke to the fact that he wanted to talk to someone about the mental part of the game, could very well be dealing with failure. not really sure what your point is there.

i agree that pelfrey is a league average starter and that he needs a better secondary pitch and/or to miss bats. i also think he could be better prepared mentally.i do not think this is mutually exclusive. and i do not think i am engaging in some kind of crazy wild goose chase by daring to entertain that thought.

by njk237 on Apr 12, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pelf saw the psychologist, Dorfman, when he was having tons of success at Wichita State too.

Which refutes to a certain extent the “doesn’t it prove ipso facto that [Pelfrey] himself wanted to be better prepared mentally” point.

Aligned with Pelfrey’s agent, Scott Boras, Pelfrey had worked with Dorfman even in his college days.

From the article linked by njk237.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, it doesn't refute anything

he could have been having success but still want to improve on his mental approach.

by njk237 on Apr 12, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just going to see a sports psychologist doesn't mean that he automatically had some issue that needed ironing out.

It’s likely he did go to see him with the intent to discus focus and the like, but it could have just as easily been for another reason. It could have been that everyone on the team went to the guy (Dorfman) and he liked talking to him so he kept meeting with him. He could have went for personal, off the field reasons, but the focus eventually turned to on the field issues. It could have been that he was “suffering” from a normal, everyday case of the grumps. We don’t know.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you have a bunch of observations (through a TV) and a couple of quotes (some with and some without context)...

Still, based on that quote, either:
1) His problems are now solved (if so, why are we talking about it?)
2) He himself is unable to properly convey his feelings (normal, but renders the quote moot)
3) Is mistaken and has no clue (again, renders the point moot)

I fail to see how it really makes the point you’re trying to make. Yeah, there’s a mental aspect to the game. I don’t think anyone doubts that. It doesn’t get us any closer to being able to say anything wrt his personality with any real certainty, though.

And in context, that quote just sounds like Pelfrey has normal emotions. The game moves a little fast for him at times and bad outings make him upset. I bet most pitchers feel of his caliber feel the game moves a bit fast at times and get upset when they get hit around. Would you rather they make him happy?

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

My points exactly...

rec’d.

Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

One more thing.

You don’t need to have been a Major Leaguer to assess a players talents/skills. Keith Law is example #1 of this and I’m sure there are a ton of scouts who never played in the Bigs.

As someone who has spent most of his conscious life immersed in playing, coaching, and analyzing baseball and whose only experience with the area of psychology was Psych 101 in college, I like to think I am more qualified to assess a players talents/skills than his psyche.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

People's emotions manifest in different ways.

Someone can appear stoic but be coming apart at the seams on the inside.

Regardless, I don’t think Pelfrey does anything that bizarre. I think Carlos Zambrano was way nuttier than Pelfrey. Difference is, Zambrano had a sick slider.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

And we're not talkign about being actually "crazy"

A bit of craziness could even give you . . . an edge? It’s more about handling pressure — coolness under fire. When people say Pelfrey is a “headcase”, they’re really saying he doesn’t handle pressure. I would hope no one thinks he sees little dancing elves at the plate, at least when Victorino isn’t up.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i agree.

but im a model Q44 with fully sentient worms crawling around my circuit boards…soo…theres that…

Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "

by SuperSantana on Apr 12, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pelfrey's problems are limited to his not having secondary pitches.

He really should be moved to the bullpen, as starters need more than one pitch to survive, most need 3

by twon8 on Apr 12, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

am i the only person

that believes we can’t get a couple top prospects for pelfery? i remember everyone telling me i’m wrong, that we definetly can get top prospects and a toolsy player.

"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by rexthejet on Apr 12, 2011 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

This annoys me.

Pelfrey is a league average pitcher. People act like league average pitchers grow on trees.

Pelfrey IS good. Not great… GOOD. And at $4M a year he is a bargain.

Guess how much Jason Marquis is making this year? $7.5M. JASON. MARQUIS.

by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

anonymocita is right

We need starting pitchers — or every kind of pitcher — and if what he ultimately “is” is the fourth or fifth best starter on a mediocre rotation, well, that’s something the Mets can use. Given his past performance, this would be “selling low.”

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Plus I can’t see who would take him. Its not like he’s an ex-brave, so Dayton Moore won’t be interested. The Giants don’t really need pitching so Sabean is out, no one else would be willing.

Joking aside, I have to think he will eventually turn it around and be the 3-5 mid to back end guy you suggest, and any prospects we get for him won’t really help us now. Not that I am engaging in KBism, but if we are going to give up a starting pitcher when we are – as you suggest – in desperate need of arms, whatever we get should be ML ready and I can’t see anyone giving up something like that for Pelf

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 12, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

Ultimately, whether it’s physical or mental or spiritual or whatever doesn’t really matter. He can’t be counted on to improve or become more consistent at this point. He is who he is, but that’s a reasonably useful piece of the puzzle.

by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Precisely

Apologies if I seemed unduly sarcastic/argumentative, law school makes me argue aggressively lol

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Apr 12, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

if you don't know whati i'm talking about,

i’m talking about the fanpost titled “trading reyes is stupid, but trading pelfrey…” were he went on to explain how we can get top prospects for him

"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by rexthejet on Apr 12, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Us needing innings aside

Pelfrey probably wouldn’t bring a team’s top-5 prospect back. A top-10 and a top-15 is much more likely.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

The last thing I'm going to say on this..

Is that what I see with Pelf is a guy that goes real hot, then real cold for extended stretches of each…As a guy that when he is at his best induces ground balls he can not only live with but can thrive despite his low K Rate…If he can work on being consistent and not let a few bad sequences throw him off he can be “goodPelf” more often than “bad Pelf” and perform at the level of your typical number 2 starter. Whoever dosen’t agree is entitled to their opinion..

by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Sorry dude, I hate to jump on an otherwise great post, but:
As of right now, Mike Pelfrey hasn’t pitched too good.

is tough to see.

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Apr 12, 2011 5:18 PM EDT reply actions  

I must not be drinking beer while watching baseball...

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 8:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, on both accounts

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 9:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

While all this is quite the read. How about this for a guess

Maybe Pelf doesn’t know how to properly handle failure? I really don’t see the “can’t handle NY” bullshit because he’s infinitely better at home. I think he gets rattled when he isn’t succeeding, which in turn makes him press a bit. That mixed with him not having a true K pitch really snowballs on him. Which might explain why he goes on months long streaks of positive and negative.
On another note, maybe if he went back to being the power pitcher he was, maybe he can be consistent. Instead of using pitches then scrapping them all the time. I mean that can’t help.

by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 5:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I think he just doesn't know how to pitch

and nobody ever bothered to teach him.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 12, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Interesting train of thought.

How would you explain his successful streaks? Can’t call it luck because of the length of said streaks.

by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 5:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'd be interesting in seeing

how many games won during his hot streaks were clearly the result of superior pitching performances…..you know….8 shut-out innings and stuff like that…versus the other team just plain sucked, and Pelfrey was the winner by default.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 12, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure someone will have done this by the time I get back.

Play nice, everyone.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 12, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see that too.

Maybe someone can do it. Along with how the opposing teams offense is ranked. It’d make for a damn good fanpost.

by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 6:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The other FanPost I did on Pelfrey,

I broke down his 2010 game by game. Check it out and see.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 8:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'll check that out for sure, but for what we are talking about its sort of SSS

I know it’d be a lot of work and all. But I’ d kind of like to see one done over his career. Like how Pelf faired against the Phucks vs how he’s done vs the Nats etc. Also his home/away splits vs said teams. I wish i could do it but my schedule does not allow me to.

by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking something along these lines as well

At least according to what I think I remember about Pelfrey and his time in the minors, didn’t the Mets scrap his only serviceable breaking ball when he was in the minors?

Add that to the fact that he’s a big kid who throws HARD and with some sink on it, and he probably didn’t need to develop any real pitching skills while in college.

And I haven’t read anything on this either, but I’d suspect that guys with heavy fastballs who do well in college don’t translate quite as well to the major league game because of the aluminum-wood situation.

/end speculation

by Brian Mangan on Apr 12, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

This thread has had a lot of back and forth

about Mike being “mental” or not.

we report you decide

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 13, 2011 8:55 AM EDT reply actions  

ah, OK

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 13, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not seeing it.

I see an article about him not having a friend, who he vented to when he needed, and who gave him advice, when asked anymore. Grieving someone who you lost is natural; that he misses this individual makes him a “head case” in what way? And, again, where is the correlation between him not having his doctor friend to vent to and get advice from and whatnot, and his ability to pitch well? The article says he started “seeing him” in late 2009. He did have a good 2010 season, and it’d be nice to be able to attribute that good 2010 season to him seeing the doctor, but we have Pelfrey’s good (best, according to FanGraphs) 2008 season, where he was successful, and he (as far as we know) wasn’t going to this doctor.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

He might have started seeing him again

but he met with Dorfman in college too.
That said, I agree with your overall point. Nothing in there says he’s a nut case; just that he is a human, met with a psychiatrist, and now misses a friend.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 13, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yo

I never said he was a head case. I said other people in this thread did.

Also, does the fact that his “friend” was a sports psychologist who wrote a book about pitching not tell you something about his inability to cope by himself.

He started to see the guy after a bad streak that resulted in him running laps outside Coors Field, then he improved. While I agree that this season is SSS with respect to the guy having died and Pelfrey not being able to speak with him, I think it may bear watching to see what happens down the road.

Maybe Pelfrey is just one of those guys that needs a support system around for him to maintain a high performance level.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 13, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did I say you did?

What I got out of that article was another causation =/= correlation, or whatever, observation.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2011 4:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

very well.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by fxcarden on Apr 13, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's probably SOME mental, after all all work and sports has some of that aspect

to it. I have no empirical evidence, but if you have tons of pressure it leads to stress. stress could lead to mental instability.

Let’s just put it to rest, I believe Mike Pelfrey is a very solid innings-eater type of pitcher, not an Ace or even a number two.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:51 PM EDT reply actions  

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