Another Mike Pelfrey Post!
(Bumped from FanPosts. --Eric)
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As of right now, Mike Pelfrey hasn't pitched too good. To be exact, in two starts, one against the Florida Marlins in Florida, and one against the Philadelphia Phillies in Philly, he's pitched 6.1 innings, surrendering 12 hits, 11 earned runs, 2 home runs, and five walks, all while striking out three whole batters. All of that is good for an ERA of 15.63, a FIP of 8.56, and an xFIP of 6.37. According to Fangraphs, he's been worth -0.2 WAR thus far this season. To put that in other terms, Alex Cora has been more valuable in his 8 at-bats with the Nationals. He isn't in Manny Ramirez -0.4 WAR, though, thankfully. Is this reason for concern, though?
Just as many people are now convinced that Mike Pelfrey is a head case loser that needs to be traded as soon as possible, because he's the scummiest scum who ever scummed, last season, plenty of people were convinced that Mike Pelfrey had finished his maturation from pitching prospect to pitching ace. A lot of the same people, I'd bet, too. Two starts into the 2010 season, one against the Washington Nationals at home, and one against the Colorado Rockies in Colorado, Mike Pelfrey pitched 13 innings, surrendering 9 hits, 2 earned runs, 0 home runs, and 4 walks, all while striking out 10 batters. That was good for a 1.38 ERA. Pelfrey eventually ended the season with a respectable 3.66 ERA, 3.82 FIP, and 4.31 xFIP, good for a 2.9 WAR, according to Fangraphs. Just like Pelfrey's great start eventually regressed to the mean, and he ended with a decent season, he will very likely regress to the mean in 2011, and end with a season that is substantially better than the one that he's had thus far, two starts into the season.
Two games into the season, Mike Pelfrey is boasting a very high BABIP, .370 to be exact. This number is high, in general, and is about .60 points higher than his career norm of .308. Invariably, since this number is unsustainably high, his BABIP is going to go down. When his BABIP goes down, there will be fewer batters reaching base. When fewer batters reach base, there will be less guys scoring against him. Likewise, his HR/FB rate is up, at an unsustainable level (20.0%!). In two starts, he's given up two home runs. The "one home run a night" thing isn't going to last. Last year, it took seven starts before the opposition hit two home runs off of Pelfrey, and he ended with a final season HR/FB rate of 5.7%. His season has gotten off inauspiciously, in terms of giving up home runs, but there is no way that that 20% HR/FB rate will continue- especially since he's a groundball pitcher, and a great number of his starts will be at Citi Field, which is harder to hit home runs in than Joe Robbie Stadium Pro Player Park Pro Player Stadium Dolphins Stadium Dolphin Stadium Land Shark Stadium Sun Life Stadium and Citizen's Bank Park. Fewer home runs, fewer earned runs allowed.
Generally speaking, I believe that Pelfrey catches a lot of heat because he's the Mets' Number 1 pitcher. Being a team's Number 1 pitcher, a lot is expected of you. You're supposed to be the ace of the staff, the best pitcher the team has. Is Pelfrey the ace of the staff, the best pitcher in the rotation? Given that the Mets' rotation is composed of the enigmatic R.A. Dickey (may movement be upon his balls), sophomore Jon Niese, and reclamation projects Chris Young and Chris Capuano, the argument can be made. Personally, however, I defer to the greatness that is R.A. Dickey's 2010 season and believe that he will sustain it, making him our best pitcher. Is Pelfrey not being the best pitcher in the rotation an argument against him? In other words, do the complaints against him because he's our Number 1 pitcher have much substance to them? Was it fair of those other reindeers to make fun of Rudolph, to laugh and call him names, and not let him play in any of their reindeer games, all based on the fact that his nose was red? A pitcher doesn't magically transform into something that he's not just because he's plugged into a certain spot in the pitching rotation. Daisuke Matsuzaka, this season, is Boston's 5th starter. Is he going to magically transform into what most teams pass off as 5th starters (marginal Major Leaguers, right around replacement-level or a little better)? Or, is he going to continue as he's pitched since arriving to the bigs, albeit closer to the back of the rotation than the front of the rotation?
Unrealistic expectations of Mike Pelfrey held by the general fanbase have no impact on how Mike Pelfrey is actually going to perform, on any given start, and over the course of an entire season. Do I think that how Pelfrey has pitched so far has been good? No, it's been pretty atrocious. Do I think that he'll keep it up? No, he'll improve such that his numbers are more in line with previous seasons, and what the various projection systems calculate. That's something we're not hearing much, so far, that Pelfrey is likely going to end the season with an ERA around 4.12 (Bill James, Marcel and ZiPS projections averaged together), a FIP of 3.95, a 5.49 K/9 rate, and a 3.11 BB/9 rate, in about 200 IP. I trust the mathematical computations and extrapolations of these sources more than a two-game small sample size. Given those numbers, Mike Pelfrey isn't really that bad at all. He's not a world-beater, but he never was a world-beater, and I don't think anyone who's aware of how baseball works actually ever realistically expected him to be a world-beater. You need your flashy, really good ace, but after him, you also need your generic, run-of-the-mill pitchers who can pitch a decent amount of innings while keeping you in games. Mike Pelfrey is that man. Nothing more, nothing less.
When might Mike Pelfrey right the ship? Well, tomorrow's game against the Rockies might be a good place to bet. Over the course of his career (that's seven starts and 41 total innings pitched), he's 5-2 against the Rockies, with a 2.63 ERA. He's historically struck out 6.6 Rockies per nine innings, while walked 3.3 Rockies per nine innings. Also, he'll be pitching at Citi Field. Over the course of his career, he's almost two entire runs better at home (that includes Shea Stadium as well) than on the road. He's given up 20 home runs in 402 innings at home, as opposed to the 31 he's given up in 287.1 innings on the road. Opposing batters slug nearly .100 points lower against Pelfrey when he's pitching at home than they do when he's pitching on the road. So, that streak of a home run every game that he dubiously has right now? Expect it to snap. The ERA upwards of 15? Expect it to shrink dramatically.
So, in short: Let's wait a few more starts before pronouncing Pelfrey undesirable and calling for Sandy to jettison him. Over the past couple of years, we've had plenty of reasons to work ourselves into tizzys. There's no reason to purposely work ourselves into one, on a mostly non-issue. As keithprime humorously called it, there's no reason to Joe Beningo-ize ourselves just yet.
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If he was pitching in Florida or KC
he’d be an ace. He just doesn’t have the mental maturity/ makeup to handle NY. Maybe in a lesser pressure City he can handle the ups and downs. He’ll be crusing through 5innings then the wheels fall off and let the snowball begin. He has a fragile psyche not fit for NY. I like Pelf think he’s a decent number 4 or 5. But the pressure here is not in his make up to suceed.
by TheKid08 on Apr 11, 2011 1:14 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I completely disagree with you.
I’ll forget about my hatred of trying to quantify the mental aspect of the game and instead just ask you to explain how what you wrote makes any sense considering Mike Pelfrey’s career home/road splits.
or maybe it was just a big joke
Kicking knowledge in the face.
by BlackOps on Apr 11, 2011 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
This.
Here are Mike Pelfrey’s numbers while “in the spotlight of New York”:
402.2 Innings Pitched, 3.60 ERA, 237 Ks, 131 BBs, 20 HRs, .265 Batting Average Against, .331 OBP Against
Here are Mike Pelfrey’s numbers outside of "the blinding lights of New York:
287.1 Innings Pitched, 5.54 ERA, 154 Ks, 123 BBs, 31 HRs, .309 Batting Average Against, .380 OBP Against
How do you measure mental maturity, anyway? When the wheels come off, how do you know it’s because he lacks whatever mental fortitude is needed? Maybe he’s overthinking, is analyzing things too much. Maybe, for each game where he hit a wall and really didn’t recover, there’s a strange but equally realistic reason- in one game, he had a really bad mosquito bite on his palm, which didn’t allow him to get a good grip on his sinker or split-change; in another one he was suffering from a really bad wedgie that he couldn’t fix until the inning was over, hampering his performance; in another one, a former girlfriend was sitting behind home plate, yelling obscene things at him and making crude gestures…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Do we even really know if Pelfrey pitches worse "after the wheels come off"?
Where’s the study that shows this?
by Brian Singer on Apr 15, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
weather he pitches well on the road
the 50 reporters follow him and ask him questions. The media presence is less in a say Florida Marlins team. I feel the stress and scrutiny of the media after every game along with the fact that he easily loses focus hampers his abilty.
You're free to speculate idly.
We’re just as free to nod politely and say, “I’m not sure that’s it.”
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Apr 11, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
i’m not sure that’s it. these guys are professionals, they’ve been playing baseball their whole lives. i would think by this point, they know how to block out the stadium and focus on the job at hand. outside the stadium its new york, sure…but inside its just him on that mound doing what he’s trained to do.
You DRTFA, did you?
It’s two starts, on the road, where he’s historically a much worse pitcher. Just because a guy needs to see a psychologist doesn’t make him a ‘head case’, or that he’s got a fragile psyche. Please, let’s leave the armchair diagnoses out of this.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry but I have to jump in on this as well.
This is just completely wrong. Maybe Pelfrey does have some sort of performance anxiety, maybe not. We don’t really know for sure and I’m not going to speculate on it. There’s nothing that Mike Pelfrey does that points to him being an ace of any big league team, big market or small. An ace needs to dominate. An ace is the stopper. Johan Santana was an ace. Pedro Martinez was an ace. Tom server was an ace. You know what those guys all had in common? In their primes, they were all big strikeout guys with at least one dominant out pitch. Pelfrey throws a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer that get outs on the ground, but beyond that he doesn’t have a really good offspeed pitch or that putaway pitch.
To be an ace, you have to dominate something. Most do it via the strikeout, some do it via the ground ball. Mike Pelfrey dominates neither with his pathetic 5 k/9 and his 48% groundball rate. Sorry…that wouldn’t play up to ace level in New York, Florida, Kansas City or anywhere else.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 11, 2011 9:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Tom Server?
Damn, I hate typing on smartphones.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions
i think you mean Tom Servo

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Um,
ever heard of Josh Johnson and Ricky Nolasco?
Pelfrey would be a 3 in Florida.
"You're Darryl Strawberry!" "Yes?" "You play right field!" "Yes?" "Well, are you better than me?" "I've never met you.... but.... yes."
by Five-Tool Tool on Apr 11, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally
I’d probably put Anibal Sanchez ahead of Pelf too. He misses more bats and saw a major improvement in BB/9 last year with a career best 3.2 BB/9.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd put Chris Volstad ahead of Pelfrey too
Just because I like Chris Volstad.
traveling photoshooper.
i hate shane victorino more than anyone else.
sparbz.com
@sparbz
He'd be a 5 then, haha.
"You're Darryl Strawberry!" "Yes?" "You play right field!" "Yes?" "Well, are you better than me?" "I've never met you.... but.... yes."
by Five-Tool Tool on Apr 12, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
i rec'd this
simply so i could un rec it
What Would Matt Szczur Do?
by Hoyadestroya85 on Apr 12, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
False.
Mike Pelfrey will be Mike Pelfrey wherever he goes. On the Mets he is miscast as an “ace.” If he hopped on the 7, transferred at Grand Central and then took the 4 to the Bronx, Pelfrey would be a 3 or a 4 (depending on whether you believe Hughes’ drop in velocity is permanent.)
Basically, if he played for a different team IN THE SAME CITY he would be viewed in a much different light and I doubt he would be considered a head case. Rather, he’d be the “quirky” 4th starter on a World Series contender.
by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really hope that he can pull it together tomorrow
I am gonna be at that game and a blowout would not exactly make my day.
I think its all mental....
I also think an underrated aspect of this is Josh Thole’s inexperience, Barajas and Blanco we’re leaders whether we liked them or not and that presence is missing right now for young Pelf…The ability to handle a staff is a very important attribute
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
He's had success with Thole
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Thole wasn't on the team when he started out 10-1 last year...
And the Blanco’s Barajas were…It speaks to his psyche that little comfort level things like that throw him off so much…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Or it speaks to the arbitrariness of using wins as a metric of his performance
Arguably his best major league season, 2008, he was throwing to such luminaries as Brian Schneider and Ramon Castro. The fact is, Pelfrey is a mid rotation sinkerballer who has had some ridiculous fluctuations in his career, more so then most mid-rotation pitchers. in 2008 he started out poorly and then went on an 11-3 tear. Last year he had a great beginning and end and shitty middle. Fluctuation happens, and it has little to nothing to do with the man behind the plate as long as he is reasonably competent. To suggest otherwise is to find another in a line of lazy and poorly reasoned excuses for the fact that Pelfrey is prone to larger peaks and valleys then most pitchers
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
This.
You can look into it all you want but the bottom line is that he’s just purely mediocre. He’s not an ace and imagining that he is an ace just won’t make him an ace.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the "fan expectations" of Mr. Pelfrey is unjustified because of the bonus he recieved
and hype the brass pumped him up to be…I remember Rick Peterson saying something akin to Pelfrey being a “future Ace”….
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the hype early on was pretty justified.
He was the 9th overall pick and was actually thought to go higher than that, but fell due to the typical Boras money demands. He was a kid with an excellent fastball that (supposedly) sat 94-97 and was said to have a solid curveball, albeit one that could use work tightening up. Once he signed, he dominated the minors just based off his fastball but never really developed even average offspeed stuff (not helping was the fact that Peterson had him scrap the curve for a changeup).
I agree that the hype ended up being unjustified but at the time, it certainly wasn’t. At this point, we should really be thankful that we at least have a major league pitcher on our hands, even if he’s just mediocre, and not a complete bust as many first rounders end up being.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 13, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
oh I agree, but I was merely pointing out that maybe this is why some fans
[not me, obviously] still hold onto the fact that “he may turn into something”. You’re right Mistermet….at least he doesn’t stink completely, he IS a very serviceable pitcher, which is better than a complete burn out.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
His College coach saw him last year
And was quoted as saying “He threw a lot harder in college” Pelfrey was/is a 1.5 pitch pony, that you don’t know if his 2 seamer is going to be good or not. When its on, he can be a very good pitcher. When its off, he gets lit up. Pelfrey doesn’t have that swing and miss pitch that would take him to the next level. I am surprised having Santana, and Pedro he hasn’t been working on a change up more.
i don't know if pelfrey's trouble is thole related or not
but the fact that dickey has had success with thole doesn’t answer the question. dickey is clearly a cerebral guy who is incredibly mentally prepared and focused, with his own unique game plan. my guess is that he dictates to thole (or any catcher) how he plans to work. not really a useful comparison. whether you think pelfrey has mental issues on the mound or not, i think it is safe to say he is no dickey in that regard.
by njk237 on Apr 11, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
@ Ogre, I have to agree with n7 on that. Also consider Dickey is really a one pitch pitcher with an occasional fastball or change of speed and he’s not the bedwetter Pelfrey is…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we stop with the fucking assumptions about Pelfrey's "psyche"?!
A “bedwetter”? Really?! Grow up. Unless you’re his best friend, you have no fucking idea if he has any real mental issues that interfere with baseball. And to blame his assumed mental issues on Thole is doubly stupid.
/end rant.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Did u see the game against San Fran a couple of years ago with all the balks..
He is indeed a head case. He has shown that he can control it, and when he does he gets close to Ace type results, when he dosen’t he sucks simple as that.
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
HE"S NOT AN ACE!
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know...
But he can be a solid 2 if he works out the yips permanently…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
No he can't.
An ace doesn’t have a freakin’ 5.0 K/9. Do you realize what that means? An average of 5 strikeouts per nine innings is absolutely putrid. The less strikeouts a pitcher gets means that more balls are put in play. The more balls are put in play by the opposing team, the larger chance there is for a major fluctuation of good or bad luck. A lot of Pelfrey’s issues on the mound come from big swings of luck, due to the amount of baseballs hit into play. A strikeout is a guaranteed out 99 out of 100 times. A ball that is put into play…anything could happen. It could be turned into an out, but it could also drop between fielders, sneak through a hole, be turned into an error by a fielder, etc.
Strikeouts cut down the opportunities for luck, good or bad because a strikeout is a nearly guaranteed end result.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
--sarcasm alert-- YES he IS!
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
That is stupid and ignorant
Did YOU watch that game. The first balk was a joke of a call, and the second was almost as weak. Talk about SSS.
Seriously, these assumptions are just silly
I’m going to make an assumption about the cause of his struggles with just as much evidence to back it up as the “psych-job” hypothesis.
It’s clear that Pelf’s problem is medical in nature. Through constant consumption of human flesh through licking his hands, Pelf has developed the “cannibal tremors” observed throughout history in cultures which practice the ritualistic consumption of human flesh. This condition clearly has a devastating effect on his control, which has led to his pitching difficulties. These shakes could also be construed as balks to the unassuming umpire. The easy solution is to remove Big Pelfs tongue. This should allay any further issues.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 11, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Rec'd so many times
Trying to make medical assumptions about his “problem” in our position as bloggers, we are about as likely to be correct as picking the winning lottery numbers. Its a useless exercise unless Pelf is your patient
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Another failure of diagnosis by the Mets' medical staff!
Kuru! Who knew?
Kuru! thats the word i was looking for. Thanks!
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
and should we remove David Wrong's tongue too? heh
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
don't know if your reply was at all directed to me
i’ll assume it wasn’t because you wholly failed to adress the logical misstep i suggested you made.
let me try again to reiterate my point, hopefully you won’t lose your shit this time.
someone suggested the problem might be pelfrey’s rapport (for lack of a better term) with thole. attempting to defeat that suggestion, you said, well thole has no trouble with dickey. i then said that such a comparison is not really valid considering the clear differences between thole and dickey. i did not say that it was in fact the case that thole and pelfrey cannot work together, or that pelfrey had terrible mental issues. my point was that i think it is safe to say that pelfrey (and 99%) of pitchers out there, are not as unflappable, poised, and mentally focused as dickey. dickey is unique because he is a knuckleballer – the strategy and mentality of a knuckleballer, i would think, are differant from traditional pitchers. thus, to say that because thole has no problem with dickey, that thole has no problem with pelfrey, is not an accurate logical leap. how about next time less rant more contemplated response?
No that wasn't directed at you (hence it being nested under TRJFP and not you). It was directed at people who insist on playing armchair psychiatrist by way of a TV.
Clearly Dickey and Pelfrey are two different people. That said, if Thole is so bad as to make Pelfrey have psychological troubles, you’d expect it to effect everyone on the staff to some degree. Parnell had a great year last year and a good start to this one. Young has had a great start as well (this is of course ignoring that judgment off of 2 starts is misguided whether it be Pelf or Young). If Thole was causing problems with Pelfrey, why are these guys so unaffected? Chucking up Pelfrey’s trouble to everything other then physical talent/ability is lazy and misinformed.
And Thole doesn’t even call the game. He gets signals from the bench.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
my question to you would be
is poor performance by a baseball player ever due, in whole or in part, to poor mental makeup?
In part? Maybe. I don't think anyone would say that Knoblauch's throwing troubles for instance, were solely physical.
But that said, we are far, far from qualified to make judgments if they are. Even if someone on AA is an actual psychologist, they would’t be in a position to make any claims if they were.
And this is still ignoring the inanity of making any judgments based off of 2 starts.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Stop psychoanalyzing players like Chuck Knoblauch and Chris Truby from your armchair!
Anyway, it’s clear that Pelfrey is allergic to Thole. How can people not see that? It’s only after mound visits from Thole that Pelfrey’s “cannibal tremors” are exacerbated to the point where he gives up runs.
Actually, it can be interesting and occasionally useful (and, hell, fun!) to psychoanalyze people from a distance. You didn’t need a phd from Yale in psychoanalysis to know that Joaquin Andujar and Albert Belle had issues.
by Brian Singer on Apr 16, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Their mental makeup is different...
The betwetter comment was probably uncalled for but the yips and the lack of mental toughness we see when he’s cursing at himself coming apart is what makes him different from others…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
And if he was Matt Garza it's be called "intensity".
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Green'd.
Hard. Garza is some sort of folk hero all because his team made the playoffs. Pelfrey’s a psychotic loser who needs to be locked up in a straight jacket because his team sucks.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I call this the Ryan Leaf, Brett Farve syndrome
Both were douchebags who yelled at opposing players, said dumb stuff, but one was good.
You have to admit that part of the reason for the difference in their reps
is that Garza IS in fact better than Pelfrey. That suggests that Garza does a better job of channeling his emotions than Pelfrey does.
by Brian Singer on Apr 16, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
You've got WAR on the brain.
Get over the idea that one number is the be all and end all.
by Brian Singer on Apr 19, 2011 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions
This so much
Pelf gets a lot of undue flack about that. Name me one other pitcher in baseball that has had to suffer from such a made-up, nonsense, hokey, supersitious, ridiculous and meaningless diagnosis as yips?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Garza's more consistent than pelfrey
Over a season the numbers are similar, but pelf can go out and have a bad month or 2 in a row before he figures it out..
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Who cares who is more consistent
if over a season they have near identical value?
And all I was talking about the way they are perceived. Pelfrey get’s labels as a “head case” because he bites his glove and collar. Garza gets labeled as “intense” because he yells at the dirt and the inside of his jersey. To bring another name into the mix, just look at Papelbon. He gets lauded for the intensity he brings when he’s just a goofy kid doing his thing. If the Red Sox hadn’t won a championship, he’d be called unprofessional and childish.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Who cares who is more consistent??!!
Is that really a serious question???My point is Pelf has a higher ceiling and if he could be that 10-1 or 9-1 or whatever the fuck it was if he works through his, and i’ll say it again “mental” issues….
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You miss my point.
I said:
Who cares who is more consistent if over a season they have near identical value?And maybe you feel the way you do because you’re assuming wins = talent, when in reality, they don’t.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Your point is wrong...
He can in long stretches pitch very well… They need him to get to there and fall not completely off the wagon when he struggles…And its not only wins look up his era from his first 10 starts or so last year or all the other stats i don’t have the slightest idea about…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
ERA is just as useless as wins
in determining a pitcher’s value. Yes, he can pitch very well in stretches. But he is not, and will never be, an ace.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This is wrong
ERA is a good stat, just not the only stat to evaluate a player. ERA is the average number of runs that pitcher gave up. That is a real actual thing.
"ERA is a good stat" is debatable.
It’s okay for telling you what happened but not necessarily good at telling you performance level. It doesn’t take into account defense or luck. I much prefer FIP, BABIP and LD%. It’s kind of like RBI.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I guess ERA is useful in the context that it tells how well a pitcher pitches
given a specific defense behind him. Until defensive statistics become much more advanced however, it would be difficult to pair the two in a meaningful way as to draw a useful conclusion about how a pitcher would fare on another team. That’s not to say that one day ERA couldn’t actually prove useful, just that it isn’t now.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 14, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I use ERA as a general metric to see how a guy is.
There will be discrepancies between ERA and FIP, or xFIP, or ERA+, or ERA and all of the other pitching metrics, but generally speaking, the higher a guy’s ERA is, the worse he is (with or without a good/bad defense), and the lower a guy’s ERA is, the better he is (with or without a good/bad defense). You’re never going to have a guy like Roy Halladay (a very good pitcher no mater what stat you use to quantify it) with a bad ERA, over the course of a season.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 15, 2011 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah it's ok as a back of the envelope check on a guy
Although it depends on the pitcher type as to how important the defense behind him is. Strikeout guys you can tell pretty well from ERA if they’re good or not, groundball/flyball pitchers are a bit more difficult to read with ERA alone (our flyball pitchers probably look awful right now because our left field defense has been atrocious for example). Overall, while ERA isn’t a fantastic stat, it does give you a gut-check about whether a pitcher is pitching well or badly. I think ERA is better for comparing the same pitcher between different years than it is to compare two different pitchers though.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 15, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
But that ERA was unsustainable.
His K/BB ratio pointed to the fact that he was in a swing of very generous luck, just like he’s currently in a swing of very poor luck at the moment (his .387 BABIP points to said bad luck).
Wins and Losses don’t mean a damn thing and ERA does little in terms of future projection. Take a look at the things that he only controls…his walks, strikeouts, home runs etc. They’ve remained nearly static the past three seasons and when you look at them, they add up to a mediocre pitcher. 5.1 K/9 is putrid. 3.32 BB/9 is way too high for a guy who K’s so few batters. His saving grace is that he doesn’t give up a ton of home runs, and that seems to be greatly helped by his home parks.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe Garza is more consistent
because he’s a more consistent pitcher. nothing to do with head problems or Pelfs lack of confidence, but strictly the fact that it’s really fucking hard to repeat the same motion 100 times in a row exactly the same way. Some people will be better than others at it, and even subtle differences in delivery from one pitcher to the next can make two seemily identical pitchers on the surface have very different reproducibility. Perhaps nothing is “wrong” with Pelf at all per se, and he’s just a bit less precise about his pitching motion.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 11, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Game one..
He pitched well and threw one bad pitch to buck…Game 2 he was making some really good pitches and then when a couple things didn’t go his way the floodgates opened. We could debate mechanics all day but loses confidence and everything goes to hell after..I also think approach and gamecalling has been an issue, thats all…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
but theres no evidence that his confidence is affecting his mechanics in any way
I’ve got a pretty good idea of how i’m going to do a proper analysis of this later, hopefully it’ll help clear this up a bit, but i’d hazard a guess his mechanics go bad and he starts pitching poorly and getting mad, and not that he gets mad because he gives up hits and then his mechanics suffer afterwards.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 11, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oy.
You seem overmatched by this conversation…do you even understand what we’re talking about?
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing I used to love about Leiter above all else
Was the way he went at himself on the mound. It was hilarious. Loved it. Pelfrey’s pitching troubles are PITCHING troubles, why is that so hard to credit?
Because that would mean that we have to face the fact that Pelfrey isn't the answers to our "ace-less" prayers.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Which we shouldn't be having anyway
Someone said in the game thread that he is a sinkerballing, ground ball, middle of the rotation, innings eater guy who if we were rational about this we would be thrilled to have
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
True but he's also
A guy that’ll stink it up for a long stretch if they don’t find a way to “fix” him…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't need "fixing"!!!
He is what he is and whatever we propose will have no effect. End of story
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Just stop it.
You’re way out of your league on this issue.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Pelf
I don’t think hes got much mentality issues or ’can’t handle NY’; I think thats mostly garbage. Hes simply a pitcher who gets exposed by lefties and non-Citi Field parks. Probably the true talent of a #5 type but can appear a lot better than that thanks to his friendly home park.
# 5's...
Dont have 9-1, 10-1 streaks…The stuff is there, I really think its mental, and the gameplanning has been poor. I usually support Warthen but he needs to get off his sarcastic ass and do some coaching…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
.
I really think its mental
Well now that we have your professional opinion based off of your vast experience talking and interacting with Pelfrey we finally have that squared away. Thank god for that!
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I've never seen a guy who's a big stud, with a great arm...
And great pitches, who has such negative body language…Like he dosen’t beleive in himself. One bad thing happens and then the floodgates open with him. I’m not fucking Dr. Phil but thats how I read his body language. When he pitches well for a period he just looks completly different…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll say it again:
Well now that we have your professional opinion based off of your vast experience talking and interacting with Pelfrey we finally have that squared away. Thank god for that!
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 11, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Did you ever watch Leiter?
The very same. There was no blogging at the time, so who knows what “head-case” memes might have taken hold if there had been, but he routinely stomped around the mound yelling at himself when things went bad. And yet, was reasonably successful at pitching.
The two things can co-exist, which I think means one is not the cause or the result of the other.
by SuperT on Apr 11, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This
Correlation =/= causation
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Just this
I’m not fucking Dr. Phil but thats how I read his body language
You might as well be Dr. Phil: he doesn’t have a degree in psychology, either.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah
but he does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_McGraw#Texas_State_Board_of_Examiners_of_Psychologists
His Ph.D was about rheumatoid arthritis, go figure…
Well, it's not nearly as funny when you bring facts into it.
I really thought he didn’t; must have gotten him confused with some other talk show host who dispenses medical advice to strangers.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 15, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
W-L records
Really? Anyway, both the the advanced stats and traditional stats lay it out pretty thoroughly; hes just not very good against lefties and his road struggles strongly indicate hes benefited from Shea/Citi. Take him out of Citi and he’ll probably look more like a #5.
Really?
It’s impossible for a back-of-the-rotation starter to have a winning streak? The wrongness of that statement boggles the mind. Even one single season of baseball is filled with otherwise unspectacular players having a couple of weeks where everything just clicks for them. I remember Jeff Manto once had a streak so hot, the Hall of Fame asked for his bat. Hell, look no further than Jeff Francoeur last year: in March and April, he hit 4 HRs and put up a .284/.355/.531 line, good for a 138 OPS+. He finished the season with 13 HRs and a .249/.300/.383.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Pelfrey's stuff is there? really? Ace pitchers know how to pitch with a lack of velocity and WITH velocity
They also have three-four different pitches, including a reliable slow pitch; none of which Pelfrey has. the winning streaks are a bad way of judging how good a pitcher is. he can be 11-2 with an ERA around 5. If the team scores more than 2 runs a game the pitcher wins, no matter how bad he is. by the way, most of the radar readings, if you believe in them of Pelfrey’s stuff hasn’t hit mid 90s in a LONG time.
if reply fail…this is to real julio
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Swings and misses.
Swinging strikes have always been the issue with our young hero; this issue seemed to have been remedied— at least temporarily— early last year, with the addition/refinement of his split/change. Then, poof, just as suddenly as it came, it’s getting watched for balls, and then it’s gone. Is the issue with his splitter:
A) That he telegraphs it?
B) That he telegraphs it at times?
C) That he simply does not throw it as often as he should?
D) Something else entirely?
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Apr 11, 2011 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I don't know if he was telegraphing it
But it seemed like hitters were getting aware of which counts he threw it on and started sitting on it more.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the league adjusted to it
and knew to lay off because it was rarely thrown for a strike (IIRC).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
That's what I figured, but I don't have the pitch F/x to support it
From observation though, it had a lot of late drop which is why hitters were biting early I think
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm asking Garik for the Pitch f/x data
Gonna look at it, and see what’s what, see if I notice anything.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 11, 2011 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This response nails it . . .
Pelf is all about swings and misses. He does not get enough. His bad K rate can work with 65% groundballs, but he really doesn’t do that. If he could bump up to 7ks per 9, he could settle in as a 200 inning pitcher with an ERA+ of 110, which is very solid. I just don’t have faith that he can get there.
Looking it up on fangraphs
two starts in Pelfrey has thrown his fastball less than ever and his slider more than ever. I wonder what that’s about.
Well, he did say that tonight he was going back to the fastball and slider
We’ll see what results
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the Thole effect...
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 11, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Or he was playing around with new pitches...
We should ignore the games he won while throwing to Thole last season right?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You know, I actually started to assemble the data from B-Ref to disprove this inanity,
but I really do have better things I could be doing, and it’s still not going to convince Julio, anyway.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 11, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop it.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Please.
Just stop…you’re making yourself look more naive every comment you make.
And yes…I meant to reply twice. I really want him to stop.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Really??
The point of this site is to banter back and forth. If we all had the same opinion and just patted each other on the butt for what we said what would be the point?
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
a lot of that was late night frustration from the game.
Anywho, I understand you’re entitled to your opinion, so go ahead and have it. However, calling him an ace or a #2 is just a pipe dream at this point, not steeped in any sort of reality of what Mike Pelfrey really objectively is. Maybe you think he could be that and the thing is, when he was drafted, he was thought of as a future ace. He had the excellent fastball to go along with what was deemed a solid curveball and he just needed to work on a third pitch. The problem is that he scrapped the curve, went to a slider and then they decided to turn him into a sinkerballer instead of working on his secondary stuff. Once he got to the big leagues, the guy was all fastball with mediocre secondary stuff and that’s where he is today. He’s really just a two pitch pitcher and those two pitches are not dominant. Good but not dominant. He’s also got 3+ seasons of data to back this off of that says he’s mediocre and the data hasn’t changed a bit in that time (again, look at his K’s, BB’s, HR’s, etc…he’s incredibly consistent season to season. Consistently mediocre).
Sorry to snap like that but while you are allowed to have your opinion, it doesn’t make Pelfrey an ace just to say he’s an ace. He has to pitch like it and he hasn’t because his tools are quite underwhelming (other than his fastball and even that is a bit underwhelming…he was sitting 91-93 with it last night).
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Its cool bro...
The Mets are like a dumb hot chick, you love to watch her but she pisses u off….
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The point of this site is to make arguments and observations about the Mets and baseball based on factual claims and data.
Not saying something, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and calling it “banter”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And then to get high and mighty about it and treat it like the fucking Yalta Conference?
by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
High and mighty?
All I and a few others are doing is pointing out the critical flaws in thinking that one of us can play psychiatrist through a TV. Pelfrey may indeed have mental issues, but we are not qualified to make that claim nor are we in a position to diagnose him even if we were. To act to the contrary should be discouraged and shot down every time. Furthermore, when everything (stats, profile, etc.) says Pelfrey is no more than a #3 pitcher, to hold him to #1 pitcher’s expectations is unfair and unrealistic. To act to the contrary should again be discouraged.
If that is being “high and mighty” then so be it.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That reads like something
a sweaty protagonist would recite in a Frank Capra film. Chill. People are people. You can’t force them into an artificially removed statistical analysis of absolutely every aspect of the game of baseball. When a bull charges you, you jump out of the way. You don’t Google bovine aggression statistics. No one is saying that Pelfrey has X or Y disorder straight outta the DSM-IV. They’re saying he has problems dealing with pressure.
this.
also, as a means of splitting the difference, I lobby for shoop of Marine Drill Sargent Sandy reading the riot act to jackwagon Pelf…..sparbz?
"this is not live." - Lindsey Nelson
by MilnerTime on Apr 12, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is a place for intelligent discourse.
Saying Pelf “has problems dealing with pressure” is not intelligent discourse. It’s no different that ESPN saying that Jeter’s heart is what makes him the best SS is the game today or that Eckstein’s grission make him a better option than Reyes if the Mets every want to be “winners”. It’s the same thing that leads people to cheer for Francoeur one minute and turn around an boo David Wright the next.
I don’t know how you can be okay with that.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Jeebus
I’m sorry we aren’t living up to your standards and bathing your no doubt superior mind with the warm, slightly acrid (yet strangely appley sweet!) “intelligent discourse” you crave. Do we have to talk about physiological effects of anxiety before you’ll grace us with your commentary? Pass.
It's not about living up to someone else's standards,
it’s about actually having something to contribute. Posts that say things like “Pelfrey’s too soft mentally to handle pitching in NY” leave us nowhere to go, because not a damned one of us can offer any insight into the mind of Mike Pelfrey. And yes, like Ogre said, it’s not intelligent discourse, it’s the same pointless blather that guys like Joe Morgan and Chass spit out in lieu of actual analysis. We’re better than that.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 12, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
And many of your posts regarding various "metrics"
add nothing, because this whole discussion could be a set of links to FanGraphs.
And though Joe Morgan may be maddeningly resistant to incorporating statistics into his analysis, some dude posting on a blog is most decidedly NOT “better” than Joe Morgan at contributing to discussion of baseball. Or disucsion.
That hurts.
None of us is better at discussing baseball than Joe Morgan? Have you ever heard that man talk about baseball? If he were here, he’d be blathering about competitive spirit, the heart of a champion, and all those useless cliches. Not to mention that when he was wrong (which was often), he literally refused to admit his mistake, even if it was incidental. That kind of obstinacy makes him better at talking about baseball than us?
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 12, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's a maddening analyst
But . . .
OK, fine, he sucks and is mean-spirited at times, but he IS a hall-of-famer (deservedly), and he could have something to say about, say, hitting mechanics, positioning at second, etc. the problem here is you can’t completely discount your observations just because you’re aware of the possibility of bias. We don’t have to have double-blinded lineup constructions and things like that. We can observe things and SPECULATE. Did The Real Julio ever say “I believe Mike Pelfrey has X disorder”? No — he said the guy throws some good games and appears to get the “yips”, whcih keeps him from throwing his best stuff more often. Just over and over screaming about how he’s not a psychiatrist and republishing Pelfrey’s career numbers doesn’t add anything.
He said "I think its all mental...."
Then went on to blame Thole for Pelfrey’s struggles.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Just when I though I was out.....
My point at its most basic is that Pelfreys troubles may very well be less physical than anything else…Regarding the Thole comment, I “think”, not “know for a fact” that the inexperience factor may be affecting him. There are catchers that have made a career at being good at handling pitchers and hopefully Thole will be one soon. He just isn’t yet “IN MY OPINION”.
Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
rec'd
Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.
by Aidan Gibson on Apr 16, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Just because somebody is good at something
doesn’t mean they’re any good at explaining it. In sports, the best coaches are typically the guys who weren’t all that great at playing the sport because it didn’t come naturally to them. They had to think and create a mindset to build them up to the level they got to, whereas some people are great because they are naturally talented and don’t need to think about it. They just do it.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn't right though
Just because Joe Morgan is an explayer doesn’t mean he’s in a better position to talk about baseball than we are. In many sports, journalists are regarded as the better pundits because they take an objective view, not the “I played the game” view!
As for “some dude posting on a blog”, this person may turn out to be a journalist in the near future.
And in most scenarios, journalists are better than ex-players.
So what BobbyV and everyone else is saying does have value. It’s not a series of links back to fangraphs. Fangraphs just gives you the data. These guys are interpreting it.
Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.
by Aidan Gibson on Apr 16, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not even about intelligent discourse.
It’s about avoiding false narratives. Julio is creating a false narrative for Pelfrey because of incorrect expectations. Sure, we all hoped Big Pelf would be an “Ace” when he was drafted, however 3 1/2 seasons of data and experience tell us that he is not an ace, nor is he likely to magically become an ace.
Julio and many other fans haven’t let go of this notion that Pelfrey should be an ace. Thus, rather than just accept the fact that Pelfrey just isn’t ace material and be happy with what he is, a pretty damn good pitcher, they have too create some kind of explanation as to why Pelfrey isn’t reaching the lofty expectations they set for him.
As someone pointed out above, Pelfrey’s K/9 is 5.1 for his career. After 3 1/2 years in the league, he is unlikely to see his K rate jump. Or, in layman’s terms, Pelfrey doesn’t have a fucking out pitch and if he hasn’t developed one by now it’s unlikely that he ever will. This does not equal “ace” material.
By contrast, Doc Gooden not only had an electric fastball, but he had a curveball that literally forced hitters to bow to it. Pelfrey can barely throw his slider for strikes, and when he does it’s a bullshit slider that most good RH hitters can drive into RF. He attempted to develop a split, but as someone mentioned above, he doesn’t throw it for strikes and it isn’t nasty enough to induce swings.
In short: Sure, Pelfrey throws hard and looks the part, but his secondary stuff is very mediocre, if that. Watch any Pelfrey start and note how many 2 strike counts he get to yet he is unable to put the hitter away. This is why he doesn’t go deep into games – hitters foul off his 2 strike offerings because he doesn’t have a wicked out pitch to get swings and misses.
NOW: Do you see what I did there? While I threw in some statistical analysis, I also used my observations of Pelfrey as a pitcher to explain why Pelfrey is what he is. Could Pelfrey be a “head case?” Sure, I guess he could, however, there is statistical and scouting explanations (read: more logical and rational) as to why Pelfrey isn’t an “ace” or more consistent.
by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
You've summed up what I've been trying to say
in a single post. You sir, should be a writer. A rec for you.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
nicely done
let me fix this, tho………
In short: Sure, Pelfrey throws hard and looks the part, but his secondary stuff is very mediocre, if that. Watch any Pelfrey start and note how many 2 strike counts he get to yet he is unable to put the hitter away. This is why he doesn’t go deep into games – hitters foul off his 2 strike offerings because he doesn’t have a wicked out pitch to get swings and misses. Pelfrey = Maine
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by fxcarden on Apr 12, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
thank you Keithprime
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 13, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The evidence I see is that he gets as hot as he gets cold and if....
He could repeat what he does when he is successful more consistently the results would be consistently better…And I feel something other than a physical issue prevents that..To say he had a great stretch in the beginning of 2010 and say because he didn’t k alot of batters and say its due do luck is something I don’t agree with..But you know, its all good Ogre…
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone has good streaks.
However, when those good streaks are not accompanied by better supporting numbers (K/9, B/9, HR/9; things a pitcher directly controls), then those good streaks cannot be assumed to be reflective of true talent level. In Pelfrey’s good streaks, his supporting numbers aren’t significantly better than on average. Therefore, Pelfrey’s good streaks shouldn’t be taken as reflective of true talent level.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
You were alot nicer to me when we took this picture :(
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
i see what you did there..
Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "
by SuperSantana on Apr 12, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
It’s hard to write an objective post on Pelfrey. And you nailed it
Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.
Yelling aside, I just wanted to say that this is very well written
and echo what BM said, this is really well done
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 11, 2011 6:32 PM EDT reply actions
Recitation of the statistics
Is not a refutation of the theory that his mental makeup is part of what makes him a bad pitcher. No one has any idea WHY he can’t get that leaden sinker over more frequently.
When you only look at things in aggregate, you’re missing some of the indications that there could be a psychological issue. For example, do things snowball? Does he suddenly begin to struggle with control after being unlucky or giving up a home run, etc., etc. These are indicators that his makeup may be an issue. No one is saying (I hope) that he has a clinical disorder. It’s an issue of why a pitcher who has shown good “stuff” has never been able to put it together conistently and why he tends to collapse on the mound. He’s not Mackey Sasser, Steve Sax, or Steve Blass, but things definitely seem to go south in a hurry for him.
There’s nothing wrong with the speculation. Sure, we don’t like calling people “headcases”, but we shouldn’t like saying they’re “terrible” or “failures”, either. None of this fan banter is a true condemnation of an individual. Anyway, you are probably far less qualified to assess his “talent” than his psychology, anyway, none of us having been major leaguers, and all of us having been human beings (with a couple of robots thrown in. I’m actually a C64 with some semi-sentient mold growing in it.) It may be great fun to post childish little sarcastic retorts and rec each other’s bon mots, but ultimately, it’s in the service of something that’s not all that important, and not as infallible as you may think.
by tmu on Apr 12, 2011 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
.
There’s nothing wrong with the speculation
When it is blind speculation that is only supported by sentiment which is susceptible to observation bias, there’s at HUGE problem.
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by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I speculate Alex Ovechkin eats babies and kicks puppies.
I have no evidence to back this up, but from watching him play a handful of games on TV against the Rangers, Sabres, Penguins, Islanders, and Devils, I think he looks like he enjoys eating babies and kicking puppies. Is that speculation okay?
(and yes, I saw on your profile that you are a Capitals fan).
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by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's a very
artificially analytic way of looking at these things. All “speculation” is not equal. I suppose hits vs. errors or line drives vs. foul balls is also too fallible to be trusted. Ergo, we can’t trust any of your statistics either.
Frankly, I could care less if Ovechkin is a jerk. Judging by his appearance, I doubt he eats puppies or whatever, but he may have doodled a buffalo hunt on the wall with charcoal and ochre once or twice.
Even though I think you were being artificially analytic, FIP, K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 use neither hits vs. errors or line drives vs. foul balls.
Both speculation wrt Pelfrey and mental issues and speculation wrt Ovechkin eating babies are formed not only from limited information, but from limited and poor information. Therefore, such speculation should not be exercised let alone encouraged.
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do you actually think that this hyperbolic "analogy" is useful?
do you actually think “part of pelfrey’s problem might be (or even seems to be) mental” is akin to “alex ovechkin eats babies”? you’re engaging in an obnoxious combination of putting words and ridiculous arguments into peoples mouths.
i like stats too, i think they are helpful. i also think that part of mike pelfrey’s problem is mental. i make this determination based on watching what he does, and listening to what he says, over the past 4-5 years. this is not “blind.” please, as right as you think you are, you are being incredibly sanctimonius. most of us aren’t a bunch of morons screaming “P3LF SUX HEZ CRAZYY”, so stop acting like that is the case.
by njk237 on Apr 12, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't like the "Ovechkin looks like he enjoys eating babies" example? Fine.
How about KeithMustache’s “cannibal tremors” example here.
They are both hyperbolic, yes, but they hyperbolic to highlight that people are jumping to conclusions wrt Pelfrey based off of limited information and evidence that is highly susceptible to observation bias.
I’m not putting words in anyones mouth. All I’m saying is that we are not in a position to make any claims on Peflrey’s psyche.
as right as you think you are
In order to think I’m right, I’d have to be making a truth claim. Saying “we are not in a position to make any claims on Peflrey’s psyche” is distinctly the lack of making a truth claim.
And I’m being sanctimonious? Show me where I’m being hypocritical and I’ll take back my argument on this subject.
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hey, at least the cannibal hypothesis is based on a directly observable event
that being, mike pelfrey consuming himself.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not meant as an attack. Quite the opposite actually.
I thought it was a very good example of how diagnosing Pelfrey through a TV is a misguided affair.
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haha don't worry it was definitely false indignation
probably should have been in @’s
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It's all good.
In debates like these it can be hard to have the sarcasm detector working at full capacity. I figured it was tongue-in-cheek anyway.
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always a good assumption with regards to anything i say
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Apr 12, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
"Truth claim"
You’re revealing yourself a pedantic lover of logic tables. I’m just trying to figure out Pelfrey’s means of “pitching-in-the-world.”
No, actually, I’m just trying to chat about baseball with some interesting folks. There’s no need for this kind of . . . dogma.
You act as if being logical is a bad thing.
And in order to “expose myself” I’d have to be trying to hide something. But if we’re going to play that game, your use of “pedantic” exposes yourself a didactic, pretentious ass.
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by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're on this level are we?
Big guns time: The Sabres are going to be ass-boned by the Flyers. You will be crying salty tears before your Pat LaFontaine Fathead.
A Lalalalalalafontaine Fathead would be pretty cool.
It’s going to be funny when the Capitals revert to their choke-tastic was yet again. If not at the hands of King Henrik, I sincerely hope the get bounced by the Pens (again).
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Not this year
This year, we sucked for much of the year. Peaking at the right time. Straight shot to Lord Stanley. If anyone beats us, IT WILL BE US.
Actually, I’m not a huge hockey fan. So, I won’t really care that much either way.
"P3LF SUX HEZ CRAZYY",
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Beningo”!!!!!
Disagree.
Pelfrey is not unique. Baseball history is littered with pitchers like him who have a good fastball but their secondary pitchers are “meh.” As a result, they have trouble getting through the batting order the third time a hitter has seen him. What you suggest could be things “snowballing” is actually hitters getting more comfortable with Pelfrey as the game wears on.
Aaron Heilman and Nelson Figueroa are other examples of this. Both guys would look great for a few innings, only to fall apart around the 4th or 5th inning. Granted, Pelfrey is a better pitcher than both of those guys, but the general premise is the same. I don’t recall if Nelson was ever referred to as a “headcase” but IIRC Heilman dealt with such accusations.
Thus, we have the trend where pitchers with a mediocre, or worse, repertoire fall apart in the middle of a game. It seemingly doesn’t make sense that a pitcher who looks so good early in the game will suddenly start getting rocked. Thus, we create the narrative that he’s not “mentally tough.” That he lets things “snowball.” In reality, the likely explanation is that Major League hitters will eventually adjust after seeing a ton of sinkers (no matter how good) complemented by a shitty slider and splitter with weak action. Because, you know, Major League hitters are pretty good.
by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Whereas the truth
is something that’s complete conjecture based on the assumption that mental makeup doesn’t come into play? There is plenty of data that Pelfrey is not tiring. Sometimes he has his heavy sinker, and he pitches well. when he gets the “yips”, he doesn’t. It’s very easy to create a post-hoc narrative where wildness, sudden loss of movement, etc., are all just “talent” playing itself out. But that doesn’t really explain anything. All of a sudden the heavy sinker is being crushed because of “adjustments”? Well, no, it’s actually staying up in the strike zone.
You often hear this ridiculous justification for ignoring the mental aspect of baseball: well, these guys are all really good, and you don’t get to that level without confidence and chemistry and pressure, etc., being negligible. Read the “Amazin Avenue Annual.” Specifically, Dickey’s interview. He points out a different consequence of the uniformly spectacular talent — things like team chemistry are how there starts to be some separation between these master athletes. It is incredibly hard to maintain, day in and day out, the focus necessary to compete against a bunch of other people who are every bit as talented. That’s why the psychology is so ridiculously important, why Danny Ainge does “brain-typing”, why every professional sports team on the planet does reams of profiling of different players, etc.
...he got the yips once.
In that game in San Francisco when he balked a bunch of times and fell off the mound.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 12, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
And Kobe Bryant refused to shoot in the 4th Quarter of a playoff game.
And Scottie Pippen refused to take the floor when Phil Jackson drew up a play for Kukoc at the end of a game.
Shit happens. Players are human. We all do stupid or bizarre things. Difference is, my quirks aren’t being watched by millions of people and analyzed in the blogosphere.
But why classify is as "the yips?"
Your point about the mental aspect being a factor in separating the supremely talented is dead on (MIchael Jordan, anyone?) However, just because Mike Pelfrey lacks Herculean focus doesn’t make him a mental case.
When his sinker stays up it’s likely due to fatigue, be it mental or physical. You’re right, it’s possible (and probably likely) that Pelfrey does lose focus. But I doubt it’s because he’s some kind of head case. Due to his repertoire, Pelfrey has a very small margin for error. Thus, he must be incredibly focused with every pitch. As I mentioned above, when he gets 2 strikes on a hitter you see the same refrain: FOUL, FOUL, FOUL, FOUL. This is exhausting both mentally and physically (shit, it exhausts me watching it, so how do you think it effects Pelf?!) Whereas if Pelfrey had a killer slider, he’d get more strikeouts and save himself the physical and mental exhaustion of those 2 strike battles.
Again, no matter how you slice it: be it statistics, scouting, or your point about the best of the best having superior mental focus we all arrive at the same conclusion: Big Pelf is an average MLB pitcher. NOT AN ACE.
No one said he was a mental case
OK, people did. But it’s hyperbole, was my point. No one really, honestly thinks that Mike Pelfrey has a serious psychological problem. (And maybe he does — Bill Pulsipher did, and I doubt it helped his career. Certainly Zack Greinke got a lot better when he got his anxiety in order.) But really, the issue is that on the spectrum between bear down Joe Montana and happy feet Rex Grossman, he’s Grossmanesque.
Fair enough. However,
that being said, Pelfrey having difficulty handling pressure isn’t notable. If that is truly what causes him to have those in game issues then it makes him painfully normal.
Again, the fact that he does have incredible hot streaks shows that he can, in fact, handle pressure.
We're not privy to these players on a personal level. We're we in the clubhouse or in the hotel.
To acts as if we are, and to make judgement about “comradely” or “team spirit” or “mentality” when we have no reliable knowledge on the subject is something that should be avoided.
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by Ogre39666 on Apr 12, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree.
Like I said above, it’s a slippery slope. Further, a lot of these narratives develop around mismanaged expectations. We expect Pelfrey to be an “ace,” he isn’t, thus he’s a head case. Personally, when I watch Pelfrey I just think his stuff ain’t that great.
Contrast that with someone like Turk Wendell, who ended up in the bullpen. Turk ended up in a role that suited his talents perfectly and he became “quirky” Turk Wendell. Think of how the narrative would have been different had Turk been tabbed as a “future ace” only to settle in as a league average pitcher.
If you want to speculate on intangibles, that’s fine. It’s your right. Personally, I’m not comfortable making such leaps when I am not close enough to Mike Pelfrey to even speculate. IMO, there’s plenty of hard evidence to explain Pelfrey’s performance: i.e., stats and scouting.
by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
let me try it this way
(and again, i think your characterization of this side of the argument as some kind of francoeurish rah rah heart over talent thing is bogus and disingenuous).
i am not making a judgment on mike pelfrey by probing his brain with some kind of suggested psychic power. i am saying that based on things i have seen, read, and heard (via his mouth) i think his mentality on the mound and his approach to the game is suboptimal. i think it compares disfavorably to say, johan santana, or r.a. dickey. i do not think this is unique to pelfrey, i think it is true of many pitchers, and many athletes. i not not think mike pelfrey is a lunatic bedwetter, i think he is sort of an awkward bumbler with confidence issues (for lack of a better term).
my beliefs, again, come not from thin air, but from visual interpretation and anecdotal evidence. to give some examples, it was mentioned last broadcast that mike said he never shakes off the catcher. it is known that he went to a sports psychiatrist (and again, there is nothing wrong or shameful about this, but doesn’t it prove ipso facto that pelfrey himself wanted to be better prepared mentally?).
you keeop acting as if this stuff is literally unknowable to us. how about the fact that pelfrey has said it himself?
“I, obviously, think there are a lot of people that are extremely talented and the mental part of it, the confidence part of it, I think it’s what separates guys,” Pelfrey said. “So many times in the past the game sped up on me and now I feel like it’s slowed down. I’m able to think clearly instead of having all these thoughts moving so fast in your head, which is great.” - Mike Pelfrey
by njk237 on Apr 12, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Ok.
But Mike Pelfrey still only has a 5.1 K/9 rate and secondary offerings that hitters repeatedly “spit on,” as Keith Hernandez would say.
Big Pelf could have the mental fortitude of Jack Bauer, but based on his skillset he’d still only be a league average pitcher. He can be as focused as humanly possible throwing that crappy slider, but it’s still a crappy slider.
Also, ever think that Pelfrey went to see a sports psychologist to deal with failure? The first time most elite athletes meet failure is at the pro level. Pelfrey probably mowed down all comers until he got drafted. Suddenly he couldn’t just blow people away with his fastball all the time. It’s not uncommon for dominant amateurs to become ordinary or average in the pros. Thus, even if Pelfrey can learn to deal, it’s still unlikely to turn him into this “ace” that so many believe is his ceiling.
Ultimately, Mike Pelfrey is a league average starter. The only thing likely to change that is him suddenly finding a breaking pitch that misses bats, not getting “mentally tougher.”
by keithprime on Apr 12, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
ok.
first, i didn’t make any judgments on his visit to the psychologist, i said it spoke to the fact that he wanted to talk to someone about the mental part of the game, could very well be dealing with failure. not really sure what your point is there.
i agree that pelfrey is a league average starter and that he needs a better secondary pitch and/or to miss bats. i also think he could be better prepared mentally.i do not think this is mutually exclusive. and i do not think i am engaging in some kind of crazy wild goose chase by daring to entertain that thought.
Pelf saw the psychologist, Dorfman, when he was having tons of success at Wichita State too.
Which refutes to a certain extent the “doesn’t it prove ipso facto that [Pelfrey] himself wanted to be better prepared mentally” point.
Aligned with Pelfrey’s agent, Scott Boras, Pelfrey had worked with Dorfman even in his college days.
From the article linked by njk237.
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no, it doesn't refute anything
he could have been having success but still want to improve on his mental approach.
Just going to see a sports psychologist doesn't mean that he automatically had some issue that needed ironing out.
It’s likely he did go to see him with the intent to discus focus and the like, but it could have just as easily been for another reason. It could have been that everyone on the team went to the guy (Dorfman) and he liked talking to him so he kept meeting with him. He could have went for personal, off the field reasons, but the focus eventually turned to on the field issues. It could have been that he was “suffering” from a normal, everyday case of the grumps. We don’t know.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
So you have a bunch of observations (through a TV) and a couple of quotes (some with and some without context)...
Still, based on that quote, either:
1) His problems are now solved (if so, why are we talking about it?)
2) He himself is unable to properly convey his feelings (normal, but renders the quote moot)
3) Is mistaken and has no clue (again, renders the point moot)
I fail to see how it really makes the point you’re trying to make. Yeah, there’s a mental aspect to the game. I don’t think anyone doubts that. It doesn’t get us any closer to being able to say anything wrt his personality with any real certainty, though.
And in context, that quote just sounds like Pelfrey has normal emotions. The game moves a little fast for him at times and bad outings make him upset. I bet most pitchers feel of his caliber feel the game moves a bit fast at times and get upset when they get hit around. Would you rather they make him happy?
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My points exactly...
rec’d.
Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
One more thing.
You don’t need to have been a Major Leaguer to assess a players talents/skills. Keith Law is example #1 of this and I’m sure there are a ton of scouts who never played in the Bigs.
As someone who has spent most of his conscious life immersed in playing, coaching, and analyzing baseball and whose only experience with the area of psychology was Psych 101 in college, I like to think I am more qualified to assess a players talents/skills than his psyche.
You don't need a psychology course to assess his psychology
or mental state. You just need to be alive.
People's emotions manifest in different ways.
Someone can appear stoic but be coming apart at the seams on the inside.
Regardless, I don’t think Pelfrey does anything that bizarre. I think Carlos Zambrano was way nuttier than Pelfrey. Difference is, Zambrano had a sick slider.
And we're not talkign about being actually "crazy"
A bit of craziness could even give you . . . an edge? It’s more about handling pressure — coolness under fire. When people say Pelfrey is a “headcase”, they’re really saying he doesn’t handle pressure. I would hope no one thinks he sees little dancing elves at the plate, at least when Victorino isn’t up.
yeah, i agree.
but im a model Q44 with fully sentient worms crawling around my circuit boards…soo…theres that…
Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "
by SuperSantana on Apr 12, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Pelfrey's problems are limited to his not having secondary pitches.
He really should be moved to the bullpen, as starters need more than one pitch to survive, most need 3
am i the only person
that believes we can’t get a couple top prospects for pelfery? i remember everyone telling me i’m wrong, that we definetly can get top prospects and a toolsy player.
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This annoys me.
Pelfrey is a league average pitcher. People act like league average pitchers grow on trees.
Pelfrey IS good. Not great… GOOD. And at $4M a year he is a bargain.
Guess how much Jason Marquis is making this year? $7.5M. JASON. MARQUIS.
Ace or not, he's worth more to the Mets than he'd bring in trade.
This team is absolutely starved for pitching.
anonymocita is right
We need starting pitchers — or every kind of pitcher — and if what he ultimately “is” is the fourth or fifth best starter on a mediocre rotation, well, that’s something the Mets can use. Given his past performance, this would be “selling low.”
Agreed
Plus I can’t see who would take him. Its not like he’s an ex-brave, so Dayton Moore won’t be interested. The Giants don’t really need pitching so Sabean is out, no one else would be willing.
Joking aside, I have to think he will eventually turn it around and be the 3-5 mid to back end guy you suggest, and any prospects we get for him won’t really help us now. Not that I am engaging in KBism, but if we are going to give up a starting pitcher when we are – as you suggest – in desperate need of arms, whatever we get should be ML ready and I can’t see anyone giving up something like that for Pelf
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 12, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
Ultimately, whether it’s physical or mental or spiritual or whatever doesn’t really matter. He can’t be counted on to improve or become more consistent at this point. He is who he is, but that’s a reasonably useful piece of the puzzle.
Precisely
Apologies if I seemed unduly sarcastic/argumentative, law school makes me argue aggressively lol
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Apr 12, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
if you don't know whati i'm talking about,
i’m talking about the fanpost titled “trading reyes is stupid, but trading pelfrey…” were he went on to explain how we can get top prospects for him
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Us needing innings aside
Pelfrey probably wouldn’t bring a team’s top-5 prospect back. A top-10 and a top-15 is much more likely.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
The last thing I'm going to say on this..
Is that what I see with Pelf is a guy that goes real hot, then real cold for extended stretches of each…As a guy that when he is at his best induces ground balls he can not only live with but can thrive despite his low K Rate…If he can work on being consistent and not let a few bad sequences throw him off he can be “goodPelf” more often than “bad Pelf” and perform at the level of your typical number 2 starter. Whoever dosen’t agree is entitled to their opinion..
by The real Julio from Paterson on Apr 12, 2011 2:03 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry dude, I hate to jump on an otherwise great post, but:
As of right now, Mike Pelfrey hasn’t pitched too good.
is tough to see.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
I must not be drinking beer while watching baseball...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 8:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, but does he want to learn to read good? And learn to do other things good too?
by Brian Mangan on Apr 12, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
No, on both accounts
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 9:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
While all this is quite the read. How about this for a guess
Maybe Pelf doesn’t know how to properly handle failure? I really don’t see the “can’t handle NY” bullshit because he’s infinitely better at home. I think he gets rattled when he isn’t succeeding, which in turn makes him press a bit. That mixed with him not having a true K pitch really snowballs on him. Which might explain why he goes on months long streaks of positive and negative.
On another note, maybe if he went back to being the power pitcher he was, maybe he can be consistent. Instead of using pitches then scrapping them all the time. I mean that can’t help.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 5:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think he just doesn't know how to pitch
and nobody ever bothered to teach him.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by fxcarden on Apr 12, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting train of thought.
How would you explain his successful streaks? Can’t call it luck because of the length of said streaks.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 5:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd be interesting in seeing
how many games won during his hot streaks were clearly the result of superior pitching performances…..you know….8 shut-out innings and stuff like that…versus the other team just plain sucked, and Pelfrey was the winner by default.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I'm sure someone will have done this by the time I get back.
Play nice, everyone.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 12, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd like to see that too.
Maybe someone can do it. Along with how the opposing teams offense is ranked. It’d make for a damn good fanpost.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 6:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The other FanPost I did on Pelfrey,
I broke down his 2010 game by game. Check it out and see.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2011 8:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll check that out for sure, but for what we are talking about its sort of SSS
I know it’d be a lot of work and all. But I’ d kind of like to see one done over his career. Like how Pelf faired against the Phucks vs how he’s done vs the Nats etc. Also his home/away splits vs said teams. I wish i could do it but my schedule does not allow me to.
by SFloridaMetsFan on Apr 12, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking something along these lines as well
At least according to what I think I remember about Pelfrey and his time in the minors, didn’t the Mets scrap his only serviceable breaking ball when he was in the minors?
Add that to the fact that he’s a big kid who throws HARD and with some sink on it, and he probably didn’t need to develop any real pitching skills while in college.
And I haven’t read anything on this either, but I’d suspect that guys with heavy fastballs who do well in college don’t translate quite as well to the major league game because of the aluminum-wood situation.
/end speculation
by Brian Mangan on Apr 12, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
This thread has had a lot of back and forth
about Mike being “mental” or not.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Not seeing it.
I see an article about him not having a friend, who he vented to when he needed, and who gave him advice, when asked anymore. Grieving someone who you lost is natural; that he misses this individual makes him a “head case” in what way? And, again, where is the correlation between him not having his doctor friend to vent to and get advice from and whatnot, and his ability to pitch well? The article says he started “seeing him” in late 2009. He did have a good 2010 season, and it’d be nice to be able to attribute that good 2010 season to him seeing the doctor, but we have Pelfrey’s good (best, according to FanGraphs) 2008 season, where he was successful, and he (as far as we know) wasn’t going to this doctor.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He might have started seeing him again
but he met with Dorfman in college too.
That said, I agree with your overall point. Nothing in there says he’s a nut case; just that he is a human, met with a psychiatrist, and now misses a friend.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Yo
I never said he was a head case. I said other people in this thread did.
Also, does the fact that his “friend” was a sports psychologist who wrote a book about pitching not tell you something about his inability to cope by himself.
He started to see the guy after a bad streak that resulted in him running laps outside Coors Field, then he improved. While I agree that this season is SSS with respect to the guy having died and Pelfrey not being able to speak with him, I think it may bear watching to see what happens down the road.
Maybe Pelfrey is just one of those guys that needs a support system around for him to maintain a high performance level.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
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What I got out of that article was another causation =/= correlation, or whatever, observation.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2011 4:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think it's probably SOME mental, after all all work and sports has some of that aspect
to it. I have no empirical evidence, but if you have tons of pressure it leads to stress. stress could lead to mental instability.
Let’s just put it to rest, I believe Mike Pelfrey is a very solid innings-eater type of pitcher, not an Ace or even a number two.
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