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Around SBN: UFC 146 Results: Junior dos Santos TKO's Frank Mir

i'm sure there are many intelligent, well reasoning baseball fans that find steroids a bigger deal than me, but does anyone else actually believe this?

"There is not another American sport where so many of the elite have been disgraced. Nothing comes close to this. Not Pete Rose, not the Black Sox, not baseball's drug trials of the 1980s, not the college basketball scandals of the 1950s."

Throwing a world series is one thing, but giving round about answers in front of a grand jury that eventually do get answered directly is a sign of the MLB apocolypse. um, what?

more on the verdict from Criag Calcaterra

about 1 year ago Mrrooney_tiny kendynamo 30 comments 1 recs  | 

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"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 15, 2011 12:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

he's probably right

there’s a good chance that most of the top players of the past 20 years will never see the hall of fame. the entire era is regarded as a joke, and an embarassment to the game. perhaps the greatest hitter and greatest pitcher of all time will both end up convicted felons. Manny, A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

i can’t think of another era that has such a glaring asterisk next to it. records aren’t taken seriously, and there is very little respect for these players in terms of the hall of fame voting.

there have been darker days in the history of the sport (like segregation), but most people don’t think less of the players who played in MLB during that era, just because blacks weren’t allowed to play with them. as far as “discrediting” goes, the steroid era takes the cake

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Apr 14, 2011 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

so if you had to pick an era of major league baseball to watch

you’d rather it segregated one where mobsters could pay players to throw a world series?

i get that people look more harshly on steroids than i do. thats fine. i’m not trying to argue that issue here. but the late 90’s were worse than the black sox? for realsies?

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Apr 14, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Black Sox

was an incident, not an era. maybe some other teams threw games, but it never became widespread knowledge if so.

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you really think so?

I think it’s quite likely that there was plenty of gaming influence for some period, and that’s just when it came to a head.

by SuperT on Apr 15, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's why i said

There was no widespread knowledge of it. It’s hard for it to be considered the era of fixing when there is only one known example of it.

If the guy hadn’t said all sports and not just professional, I’d say the college basketball price-fixing scandal was pretty huge. And of course it is selective. Major college sports is a huge scandal, and may as well just be professionalized, but there isn’t much focus on that.

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I think it was both widespread and widely acknowledged

When Mountain Landis came in to clean up the game he didn’t just deal with the Black Sox situation. In many ways in was just the most glaring example of a problem that had really plagued baseball since its inception.

by dcmetsfan on Apr 15, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, Live and Learn

I hadn’t heard much other than a few rumors of some other games.

I didn’t look for this, but I visited southsidesox just now and lo and behold, what a coincidence. I didn’t know (I could have imagined, just didn’t think it was so widely acknowledged):

http://www.southsidesox.com/2011/4/14/2111178/did-the-1918-cubs-throw-the-series-cicotte-said-yes

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention Hal Chase

Arguably the finest (or at least most talented) 1B of his time, but also someone with the moral standards of a Gambino. He was widely reputed to have thrown games.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 15, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

He made 40k

betting on the reds in 1919.

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice...

Always good to see a guy who was arrested and charged with domestic assault this year getting on his high horse

by Bieser's Balk on Apr 14, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

hah, i didnt even realize that

you’re right though. totally ridiculous.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Apr 14, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the sanctimonious media coverage has, unfortunately, played a significant role in the public’s perception

When you really stop and break it down, it’s easy to determine that the "steroid era" isn’t a big deal at all, and the wool has been pulled over the public’s eyes by the likes of Mr. Bryant.

For the sake of this screed, let’s assume that PEDs definitely do aid baseball player performance. This is a significant point of contention but that’s a different topic than I’d like to write about here.

I was once a hater of the PED users. When Roger Clemens was "outed" as a user I was thrilled. My ultimate baseball villain was a fraud. This stopped around 2005 or so, when I started to think more about principles and what I believe in. 2006 was the first year testing and punishments for using were put into place, so I’ll split up my talking points before and after that year.

Pre-2006

Before 2006, there was no punishment for using PEDs in MLB; therefore there was no rule against it. The usual response I hear to this is something like: "Steroids were illegal in the United States. MLB doesn’t specifically have rules against murder but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a crime." My response is that U.S. laws banning steroids were, and continue to be, unjust laws. Laws against murder and the like are totally just. One might not like others using steroids but that’s no reason to deny the rights of others to partake in a victimless activity which has no direct effect on anyone else. I think cigarette smoking is disgusting but laws banning smoking outright would be egregious violations of personal freedom. We are humans first, citizens of the state second. Morality isn’t determined by legislation. Using PEDs might skeeve people out but it is not "wrong".

Back to MLB – given my stance that PED usage in general is not immoral, and MLB didn’t punish users, I fail to see why MLB players using PEDs prior to 2006 was wrong. Yes, it’s not ideal that players might have felt compelled to use PEDs when they didn’t want to, but that’s a private workplace issue, not a public morality issue. Competitive athletes will do anything for an edge and I can’t condemn them for it.

Post-2006 and Hall of Fame thoughts

Testing and punishments were put into place effective spring 2006, and the current penalties are 50 game suspension for first positive test, 100 games for the second positive test and a lifetime ban for a third positive test. I disagree with how harsh the rules are but that’s erroneous here. What’s important is that MLB established just how it feels about steroid use. Gambling on baseball is a lifetime ban — a positive PED test means a 50 game suspension. I respect the right of MLB to enforce those punishments.

This last paragraph is important for Hall of Fame discussions. The majority of voters have decided to ignore MLB’s stance on PED users and institute their own rules. The punishments for steroid use are established and once the suspension has been served, that’s the end of it (unless a player tests positive 3 times — then a HOF ban makes sense). If a player is caught with a corked bat, the punishment is like 8 games (or whatever). Again, that’s time served. The voters have decided to play by their own rules, like a judge sending someone to jail for 50 years for underage drinking. And neglecting to vote for pre-testing players because of PED use is even more ridiculous — no punishment were instituted, no hard evidence is available, just finger-wagging speculation.

The stances of Bill James, Rob Neyer and Joe Posnanski on steroids and MLB make a lot more sense than those of Jeff Pearlman, Mike Lupica and the rest of the "Holy Writers". The thinkers have it right. The populist hate-the-rich-athletes journalists have it wrong.

I wish people would take a break from screaming "JUICER!" and "CHEATER!" at players to really think about the situation for themselves. Eventually this will dissipate and people will realize how absurd it all was.

by James Kannengieser on Apr 14, 2011 8:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Steroids aren't narcotics

The FDA, DEA and AMA all opposed adding anabolic steroids to the list of controlled substances but the government did it anyway.

by James Kannengieser on Apr 14, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

My fault. Steroids aren't narcotics (and I should have looked up the definition of narcotics before saying they were).

But that’s mostly semantics (and it doesn’t even really matter).
The position that the gov. shouldn’t be able to limit our ability to harm ourselves is not perfectly acceptable and without reproach. It’s actually a very highly debatable point. You happen to think that the gov. should not be able to. Others see nothing wrong with it. It’s a question of were are the limits of personal liberty. That question has been debated for as long as the concepts of liberty and government have co-existed.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 14, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

But I’m saying such a debate is unnecessary, if both parties truly believe in personal liberty. If that’s the case, they would share the same viewpoint on this topic. Otherwise, it’s “I believe in liberty except when I don’t”.

by James Kannengieser on Apr 14, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can still believe in personal liberty and be against the legalization of steroids.

The debate isn’t “Yes, personal liberty” versus “No, personal liberty”. The debate is about where we draw the line between personal liberty and structured society. I’m not saying that the view point that steroids being illegal is wrong, is wrong. I’m just saying that calling the opposing view point “absurd” is, because in doing so you presuppose the premise.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 15, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

lets not forget the most absurd thing of this story

even if “steroids” are bad, like really, really bad. does barry bonds becing convicted of 1 count of obstruction of justice now prove that the late 90’s of baseball was the WORST period of ALL SPORTS EVER?

thats what really boggled my mind.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Apr 15, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because unabridged personal liberty is only found in anarchy. A stat of nature if you will.

Once we enter into society, we forgo certain freedoms. The debate is about how many “freedoms” we have to give up; like the right to inject oneself with with dangerous substances. Again, I’m not saying that the position that steroid should be legal is wrong. Just the way you framed the situation.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 15, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

And this isn't necessarily victimless

if you agree with Chris Young’s take on it. He says plainly he feels he has lost money and people have lost jobs because they didn’t take PEDs. And others felt compelled to to compete and to get jobs.

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, I should have done a better job focusing it on whether steroids should be illegal

And not opening up to a broader discussion on the role of government in society.

My message — steroids should not be illegal. One may think they’re gross and disgusting but that doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have the right to use them. Government agencies like the FDA, DEA and AMA agree. Therefore, using the “steroids are illegal so using them is wrong despite a lack of punishment in MLB” argument is poor.

by James Kannengieser on Apr 15, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's very hard to separate legality from the government's role in our lives because that's (or rather the legal system is) what determines legality so I'll try to word this carefully as to not go to far into politics.

Just because a law is unethical (which still remains to be seen wrt steroids) doesn’t mean you shouldn’t expect to be punished for breaking it. Even during segregation (the most unethical law or set of laws I can think of), protesters conducted sit-ins with the knowledge that they would likely end up in jail for a night or two. The bottom line is that steroids were illegal in the US whether you agree with the laws ethical standing or not; MLB shouldn’t need to have rules in the book outlawing things that are already illegal in the country it resides in.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on Apr 15, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

This would have been easier if you simply stated whether you think using steroids is "wrong"

Given your statements here (“which still remains to be seen” — what are you talking about?) I’ll assume your answer would be yes. If that’s the case, then we have drastically different (and likely irreconcilable) philosophies w/r/t personal liberty.

by James Kannengieser on Apr 16, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Media coverage

generally just mimics public opinion anyway. Public opinion may be uninformed, but I would wager the majority of fans think Bonds et al got an “unfair” advantage. The media may now hype that and certain parties show excessive sanctimony, but I’d wager they are playing to popular opinion and not forming it (although I doubt the average fan would be as sanctimonious about it).

by wobatus on Apr 15, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to get too into a debate about the media,

but a lot of the time, media coverage can set public opinion. It’s not nearly as difficult as you think.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 15, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

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