Luddites Not Named Morgan Or Chass
Amazin' Avenue community members are familiar with the views of the countless baseball Luddites who worship David Eckstein's grit, Derek Jeter's range at shortstop, and CC Sabathia's win total. I recently was describing the sabermetric/traditionalist controversy to my friend Steven, an economist who embraces rationality and is familiar with baseball, but hasn't really kept up with the sport since Chris Sabo played for the Reds, and he pointed out that this sounds a whole lot like a debate going on in a world that he's more familiar with: cooking.
In recent years, the culinary world has undergone a revolution of sorts with science-type folks entering the field and attempting to apply their methods to cooking. Mainly, the modernists attempt to quantify EVERYTHING and frequently have their recipes down to the microgram, the end results of multiple experiments and research.
This movement, fancily named molecular gastronomy, has stirred up quite a heated debate between the modernists and traditionalists. The throwdown even has a flash point, the recent release of Modernist Cuisine, a $600, five-volume tome that describes the methods and recipes in amazing detail.
The books have breathtaking photography and a warm, witty narrative voice, but there are also minutely detailed charts and matrices, strange symbols, non-dumbed-down chemical and biological notation. To anyone who's spent time reading scientific journals, the format is familiar; to most readers (including myself and, let's be honest, more chefs than are likely to admit it), it skew towards the intimidatingly impenetrable.
The traditionalists have attacked the book and the modernists for gutting the soul of cooking; for taking it away from the common man. You can't quantify recipes like this because it takes away from the chef's genius and ingenuity. And, my personal favorite, the old ways, like cooking over the family's old wood-burning stove, are just more real. (For even more unfiltered arguments about this, check out the Amazon review page on the book).
It all sounds eerily familiar doesn't it? We've heard it all countless of times from the likes of Murray Chass and Joe Morgan. Give me wins/spaghetti and meatballs over your cockamamie VORP/foamed potatoes any day! There are Luddites in all walks of life and no matter how virulently they cling to their beliefs, their worlds are changing. Chefs and the hungry masses are more open to foaming their potatoes. Baseball general managers and fans are paying more attention to UZR. And the world progresses. It's a good thing.
82 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Some people write books
But others do advanced statistical analysis on which letter and which font should be used at a molecular level so as to waste tremendous amounts of time and give themselves a whiff of technocratic mystique.
morons always think
that intelligence is unfair.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
But true morons
always assume that intelligence and inclination toward reduction to the most granular quantitative analysis are correlated.
This strikes me as snake oil. I hope they’re taking detailed measurements of the pressures and temperatures of the rooms, the hardness of the water, the precise provenance of every ingredient, etc., etc., etc. all to add . . . oh, and that they understand the physiological state of everyone consuming the food, etc. and . . . to what marginal gain? It’s just an aesthetic — technocool. Probably helps on the margins to understand basic flavor combinations and things like that, but the microgram measurements are just silly. Not significant figures.
by tmu on Apr 19, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
true morons
don’t get what you mean by inclination.
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
It seems like
there’s a bit of a propensity to assume that anything that seems rigorous and scientific is a more “intelligent” way of doing things. It’s not. It could just be a big frigging waste of time.
There are physical chemists who could analyze my cheese whiz in an extremely sophisticated way to try to improve its bouquet. Doing so would probably be stupid (thinking more holistically.) It would be great to make cooking more reproducible, and understanding the chemistry could probably enhance the creativity of some chefs. But it really depends on how far they take it, e.g., to diminishing returns.
by tmu on Apr 19, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don't have to pay it any mind
It’s their wasted time. I think all the other cookbooks are still on sale.
Well
Not for nothing, but wasn’t there a post on Amazin Avenue that, however humorously, tried to align this approach with sabermetrics and called it “progress”? I’m George Costanza with the zipper here, but it’s JUST SO IRRITATING! I’ll comment on it, thanks.
tmu, I'm with you
The molecular gastronomy is interesting, and I’d love to go to El Bulli some day (I think they stopped taking reservations though). But this doesn’t mean the food is any better. Joe Morgan was a great player and did all the things a saber fan would point to: walks, power, sb percentage, fielding. He just can’t explain it himself. I doubt any molecular gastornomy is any "better " than Daniel Boulud’s cooking.
Ive seen Parker talk about vintners who don’t just measure the brix level etc of the grapes, but eyeball the physiological ripeness and, uh, taste the grapes.
Still, the rigorous scientific application is fascinating.
Think I’ll make gratin au fruits de mers with some leftover fish tonight, straight out of Julia Child.
OT (maybe), but El Bulli will close for 3 years. They are taking a sabbatical of sorts to experiment and try out new techniques.
I want to eat at El Bulli now, not 3 years from now!
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
If they reopen
My wife may take me for my 50th birthday, in 2014. :) Which rally means my wife wants me to take her to Spain and spend craploads of money on an El Bulli meal.
If you take your wife to Spain, the El Bulli check will be the least of your concerns.
So, I’m also invited to your 50th birthday, right? RIGHT?
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Yay!
I’ll bookmark this comment and call you 3 years from now haha
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Of course not, the person who invites HAS to pay it all.
You’ll have to pay for our train tickets from Madrid too.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I better start liquidating
my investment portfolio now, since if there’s another crash before then I’ll be bankrupted by this trip.
As someone that validates scientific methods and processes, I disagree and if I wasn’t typing on my phone I would elaborate. Maybe later after a few blue point ipa’s.
He was a boy of soft demeanor
And he loved his caburetor cleaner
by Nystrom on Apr 19, 2011 4:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BLUE POINT IPA???
Clearly you need more time with the supercomputers. Watson chooses Avery every time.
FWIW
If the dozens of puff pieces I’ve seen on the book(s) are based at all in fact, measuring all that stuff is essentially what they’re doing. It’s pretty rigorous stuff—the guy who’s in charge is one of the cofounders or grandpappies or some-such of Microsoft, and also a CalTech-trained physicist, and also a bajillionaire.
I think he basically said “eff the marginal benefit, I want fantastic french fries” and then he busted out his fourier transforms to analyze the thermodynamics of potatoes until he got em crispy on the outside and soft on the inside, because he has ridiculously large amounts of money and can.
Then again, the marginal benefit of definitive food knowledge over the entire course of human future history is probably pretty big.
But you can see how that doesn't really fit with the premise of this post
which is something like “isn’t it cool that this quantitative vs. traditional methods debate is also going on in cooking and anyone who’s for traditional methods and is at all skeptical of a numbers-based approach is probably sacrificing animals and afraid of thunder and all of this is progress, blah, blah, blah.” A guy who is curious about food and wants to study it and figure out new ways to cook is really not the same as suggesting that cooking should eschew traditional methods in favor of quantitative rigidity.
by tmu on Apr 19, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Rec
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
i don't always agree with tmu
but when i do i say it
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Apr 19, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
For synergy.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 19, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree mostly
but there are two parts to the debate. The one, whether quantitative methods will make you and your loved ones enjoy cooking/baseball more. The other, whether quantitative cooking/baseball methods are a load of shit that are good for nothing. I think Joe wrote the post while heated up about the many people who espouse the latter. But, yeah, a shrill take on the former is no better.
by Pack Bringley on Apr 19, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"The measurements are in grams."
Good god, how awful.
"You can spend minutes, hours, days weeks or even months overanalyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what would’ve, could’ve happened – or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the **** on."
-Tupac Amaru Shakur
I'd take spaghetti and meatballs over foamed potatoes any day of the week.
I also put more stock in advanced statistical baseball analysis than Murray Chass or Joe Morgan.
I’M AN ENIGMA!
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 19, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
what if you put cheese on the foamed potatoes?
I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."
And what if I put cheese on the spaghetti and meatballs.
Spaghetti and meatballs win.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 19, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Spaghetti and meatballs lose if the cheese is Velveeta®.
__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden
I'm not sure you have it exactly right
Modern Cuisine does not ask, “What is better, spaghetti and meatballs or foamed potatoes?” Rather, it asks, “What is the best way to make spaghetti and meatballs or foamed potatoes?”
by TheBigStapler on Apr 19, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was referring to the post:
We’ve heard it all countless of times from the likes of Murray Chass and Joe Morgan. Give me wins/spaghetti and meatballs over your cockamamie VORP/foamed potatoes any day!
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 19, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
a lot of the molecular gastronomy involves deconstructing the food. You can’t really improve much on meatballs made just so, with the right cut of beef, seasonings, etc. Sure, you can say it needs x grams of oregano grown in such and such soil picked on such and such date, whatever.But what chefs like Ferran Adria would do would be to say take beef aspic and turn them into noodles, take the pasta and through some process make it texturally like a meatball, and turn the tomatoe sauce into a dry ice which turns into a gas when you put it in your mouth. That kind of thing. Flip all of your expectations about the various textures around.
The big difference
As I see it, is that chefs like wylie dufresne get more praise/respect from traditional chefs than Bill James gets from the traditional writers.
He was a boy of soft demeanor
And he loved his caburetor cleaner
by Nystrom on Apr 19, 2011 4:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It's not thinking about chemistry when cooking that irks me
It’s more the tone and the knee-jerk MORE NUMBERS IS BETTERER attitude. I think thinking about the biology of taste is probably pretty fascinating.
I've listened to several interviews with Nathan Myhrvold
and I never got the tone that “MORE NUMBERS IS BETTERER.” It always sounded to me that dissecting food to this degree was more of a hobby that interested him and his team of chefs and engineers and it sounded like they were having a lot of fun producing this book. There didn’t seem to be an air of we’re right your wrong, but more that this is what they found and what they enjoy doing. I guess I don’t understand who/what you’re arguing against.
Some of the comments from the book review have a point:
4) The books focus too much on the sous vide technique.
5) It is too esoteric for home use. Honest, I am not going to buy ethylene gas to ripen my fruit!
6) I cannot quite figure out who the target audience is for these books.
Relative to baseball, this is more like comparing SIERRA to xFIP, rather than comparing Morgan to anything not dumb. When they released SIERRA, we spent quite some time trying to figure out what it brought to the table that the current metrics overlooked. After some articles, people just said “F*ck it, it doesn’t bring any quality improvement over what we have (xFIP)”.
Maybe, it’ll get to a point where it has gone over the top or people will use the technique without regarding the limitations of the method. Like correctly interpreting UZR and not using SSS. Or when you’re just making mac and cheese and you put 5g of salt instead of 3.75g (PANIC PANIC, throw the food away!!11one). You didn’t use ethylene gas in your mac and cheese!
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Re: 6
Extremely hungry readers of the Sigma catalog?
Interior decorators who want to put something pretty over the coffee table? (I got this idea reading Jeff's comment below)
Or other chefs who are doing similar experiments and want to compare results. Or top chefs wannabes apprentices who want to get ready for the next episode.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
My guess would actually be food engineers
Maybe frozen pizza will eventually taste like something…then again, maybe we’ll make it to the playoffs.
More Generally
You can enjoy eating at WD-40 or El Bulli, and also enjoy eating at Le Grounille or Rao’s. Interepreting food quality is much closer to the Fans Scouting Report than UZR.
The books are absolutely gorgeous though, I would put one on my coffee table. As for using the recipes, well, I struggle through The French Laundry cookbook.
the artist formerly known as TeufelCat
@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Apr 19, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Charlie Trotter
not the same thing but I tried making some suff from one of his cookbooks. Took forever.
I enjoyed eating at WD-50.
I probably would not enjoy eating at WD-40 because WD-40 is a lubricant.
by JoshNY on Apr 19, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Have to turn in my foodie credentials now
Bleargh. Good job me.
the artist formerly known as TeufelCat
@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Apr 19, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I know nothing about any of this
But it’s a perpetual annoyance, the fruit on the counter that’s not really ripe yet. If somebody pointed me to something relatively simple that would solve that problem, I’d listen.
Try to put another fruit that is already ripe next to it.
The ripe fruit releases some enzymes (?) that’ll help the other fruit.
Some farms use dry ice to ripe the fruit, but it’s not the same thing.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Actually, other fruit releases
ethylene gas, which is what the fancy book is telling you you can buy. Put unripe fruit in a brown paper sack with an apple and a banana, and the three will be mushy by morning. Yum!
Haha so that's what happens!
I thought it was magic of sorts. /cue “Are you a wizard?”
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I think the Keibler's want a word with you
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Apr 19, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Sous Vide
I recall reading that thomas keller had done a steak by cooking it sous vide for hours at whatever temperature, to a perfect medium-rar, and then using a blow torch to add the char of a grilled steak.
Cool, but I’ll take one of the pan-broiled ones the guy was cooking in prison in Goodfellas on a one burner hot pot.
In case you're interested,
by D4P on Apr 19, 2011 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
There is something about this analogy that bugs me.
I get the comparisons over process: many “traditionalists” or whatever don’t like the new techniques being used by “modern” cooks, who often boil (ha) everything down to a science, whereas before everyone just threw flour and spices in a bowl and food came out of the fire. Fair enough.
If the analogy ends there, I’m with you. Thing is, food as an end product is so subject to the whims of taste that it may not matter how you got there so long as what is produced tastes awesome. I may love the David Wright pizza made from old, “outdated” techniques, and find that the Ryan Zimmerman pizza, which is also really good but made from the new techniques, is missing something. Maybe not enough garlic, I dunno. You may prefer the latter pizza. Point is, both processes are perfectly cromulent and well-tested with a good end product, I just happen to find one tastes better than the other, irrespective of the fact that Ryan Zimmerman pizza is measured in micrograms.
Not trying to bag on this post too much because I agree with some of your analogy I just think maybe it needs some tweaking. Or not. It’s entirely up to you.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 19, 2011 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
"De gustibus non disputandum" just seems to have gone totally missing here
The argument for sabermetrics rests on wins. Winning is the nearly universally agreed-upon goal of baseball teams. (The Mets excepted, naturally.) There is no similar universal objective goal in cooking. Dosa Hutt is not trying to do the same thing as French Laundry, and though on its own terms it’s as great a success there’s no way to commensurate the two. The analogy here is just fundamentally broken, because baseball is quantified from the start (the question is just what correlates with winning), while the pleasure we get from food — or from art — is not.
by anonymous on Apr 20, 2011 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said
I still want to try this guy’s fries, but it’s true. Some folks love Mickey D’s fries (lotsa “science” went into those, I believe), some folks love thick cut steak fries, etc. More subjective than what gives you the best chance at winning.
Still liked this article.
Exactly.
Food is not a science. Taste is subjective, being good at baseball isn’t.
Everything about food can explained
scientifically. Even taste.
He was a boy of soft demeanor
And he loved his caburetor cleaner
I should say "could be explained"
He was a boy of soft demeanor
And he loved his caburetor cleaner
Sure,
just like every word can be explained a a series of phonetic sounds. Doesn’t mean language is quantifiable in any meaningful sort of way. You can tell how sweet something is, how similar it tastes to a peach, etc. You can’t use numbers to say if it’s any good.
Sure you can
And people do. Not that I’m a fan of his, but Robert Parker puts numerical values on wine, zagat gives ratings etc. Are they perfect? No, but neither is UZR.
He was a boy of soft demeanor
And he loved his caburetor cleaner
by Nystrom on Apr 21, 2011 3:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ratings numbers have nothing to do with the objective, quantifiable physical properties of the foods they rate. They are completely subjective, akin to saying I think David Wright gets four out of five baseballs or something similar.
Actually, it’s a lot like the 20/80 scouting ratings numbers. They’re based on an expert’s opinion of a player, not on that player’s quantifiable performance.
the difference
The main difference I see between molecular gastronomy and sabermetrics is that it seems like its not something most chefs would be able to jump right into. (just my sense, I had never heard of it before this post) I think that it is kind of myth that sabermetrics are this complex, abstract set of statistics and principles that are above the common fan and that you need an advanced degree in mathmatics to even begin to understand them. I think it perpetuated both by fans who are too lazy to familiarize themselves with sabermetrics and also by fans of sabermetrics themselves who want to maintain an sense of superiority over those who don’t embrace SABR. To me sabermetrics are mostly commonsense. A lot of what I learned through sabermetrics were things that I already knew or at least suspected. And I hate when I read comments from opponents of sabermetrics who say things like "I don’t want to break out an abacus while enjoying a ball-game. Maybe people don’t realize that you can look up any SABR stat as easy as ERA or RBIz.
Yup
Consulting stats in fangraphs is closer to using the microwave than it is to use the sous vide technique. Or to get the tools to use it.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Also
Also I think that it is really just a more detailed approach to cooking than a whole new way of cooking. It’s not like “wow, we had been boiling eggs in water all along and really boiling them in gasoline is a lot more efficient” With SABR, we had a whole new approach to the game. There are a lot of philosophical differences between the SABR and the traditionalist approach. I don’t think Bill James was expanding on the standard of the approach to the game as much as he was flipping it on its head. Alot of SABR is opposite to what we were taught about baseball, like pitching to contact and basestealing and RBIs being the end all, be all of offensive stats. I don’t see sabermetrics as a more detailed approach as much as a difference approach to baseball, and like the traditional approach you can make SABR as detailed as you want to make it.
Paulie's got a system
for slicing the garlic:

by wobatus on Apr 19, 2011 5:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Pelfrey is no
Chef de Cuisine, or executive chef. He looks good in a toque but he lacks a knock-out dish. Maybe a sous chef, saucier or a line-cook at best. Who are the Mets kidding?
don't
pour tomato sauce on my leg and tell me it’s raining
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Apr 19, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd imagine
almost everything we eat is already a product of quantitative experimentation. Unless you’re cooking entirely from scratch you’re using a Ragu sauce that has its formulas, additives, and what nots down to the milligram. And even if it is from scratch scientists have their hands all over the raising, feeding, and breeding of animals and crops. Just an observation, but it cautions against putting an “old-time” label on everything grandma whips up in the kitchen.
Speaking of things in other fields that remind you of the Traditional v. Advance stats debate:
As philosophy major/enthusiast, the battle between determinism and contingency (free will) reminds me very much of the battle between the traditional understanding of baseball and sabermetric’s. Determinism is the advanced stats of metaphysics (things are the way they are because of the laws of physics and whatnot that govern the universe make them that way) and contingency is the traditionalism (I feel like I’m free and determinism feels uncomfortable).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I think that part of the resistance to new stats comes from athletes’ and coaches’ perception that the new stats take away the agency of the player and the manager and reduce the physical act of playing the sport (including all the training and practice that goes with it) to a series of percentages those players and coaches cannot overcome with determination, hard work, grit, etc.
The luddite jock can be seen, in this light, as an existentialist struggling against fate. Maybe there’s something to Updike’s Kierkegaard/slumping batter connection.
I think this isn't the same arguement
For starters, since it was mentioned in the comments earlier, yes, it isn’t for home cooking. It states as such. Same with many of the fancy cookbooks. Thomas Keller’s French Laundry cookbook is goddamn awesome, but he isn’t a buffoon and separates “this is what we make in the restaurant” from “this is the aspect and fundamental that you can use for yourself and family at home”. I’ve definitely had discussions with people who are much more into the statistical numbers side of things and would basically ignore or dismiss any point that wasn’t quantifiable by stats. It’s a silly stance, imo, because it leads to a lot of missing the forest for the trees situations.
Stats are good. They are, in fact, a great way to measure pretty much anything. If you follow molecular gastronomy instructions to the milligram, you will almost certainly get a good meal. However you can also get a good meal from watching your parents cook and learning “the old fashioned” way.
The baseball analogy is good to a point, but like pretty much everything in life, it isn’t a clear cut black and white, but rather a shade of grey.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Apr 19, 2011 8:35 PM EDT reply actions

by 
































