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Is Ike Davis Better Than Dave Cameron Thinks?

Fangraphs asks, "Could Ike Davis Be Better than We Think?" Hmm...it depends--who is included in "we"? If Mark Himmelstein and Keith Hernandez are included in that collective first-person, then the answer is "no, almost certainly not." 

But as someone who reads Fangraphs pointed out to me, "we" is obviously here Dave Cameron, who sort of dissed Ike in a recent chat, calling him Lyle Overbay:

I haven't seen anything to suggest that my assessment of him as a guy who is okay-at-everything-and-great-at-nothing is wrong. He walks some, hits for some power, strikes out some, and plays okay defense. That's Lyle Overbay.

Personally, I've never gotten the Overbay comparison and "walks some, hits for some power, strikes out some, and plays okay defense" describes nearly every hitter ever, including me in Little League. But I get what he's saying--Davis is about as good as he's going to be right now. Fair enough. 

But back to the original article--there's a reason I generally don't read Fangraphs posts this time of year. They tend to follow a certain formula*:

  1. Spending way to many words to say "sample size makes all statistics irrelevant"
  2. Mention everything that happened to the player in his career up to now
  3. Mention statistics anyway
  4. Vague scouting report, akin to cold reading the player  
  5. ???
  6. Cerronesque "I coud go either way, what do you guys think?" conclusion

*Disclaimer: I have been turned down for a job at FanGraphs countless times, but it is purely for a good troll, not out of spite, that I am having a go here.

Unfortunately, the afore-linked article has many of the same problems. (But what are you going to do on a stats site that posts 100 times a day, months before the stats matter?) Here's the main points:

  1. Ike has had less swinging strikes.
  2. He's gotten behind in the count less.
  3. Joey Votto is also a firstbaseman, who wasn't great in the minors, but became great in the majors. 

Immediately suspicious of #2, I checked it out and sure enough baseball-reference has him falling behind in the count slightly more this season. So scratch that. As for #1, his swinging strike%, it has dropped from 9.7% to 8.1%. Is that significant? Is the sample size big enough? I have no idea. 

Finally, the Votto-comp seems a little strange. He and Ike are both left-handed and tall, but mechanical-opposites. Ike Davis generates his power from a long, loopy swing. Votto uses his squatty, muscular arms to flick the bat through the zone, giving him better recovery time on pitches. Votto will always hit for higher average. 

Personally, I enjoy the unknowing of Ike's future--that's half the fun of watching him. For while Ike may look like Lyle Overbay, field like Lyle Overbay, and smell like Lyle Overbay, Lyle Overbay never hit 500-foot homeruns. Ike has more raw power than any Met I've ever seen--he was a top 5 player in homerun distance last season. If he better learns the strike zone, he can be great, much better than "we" think. 

Comment 32 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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U mad

I’ll admit your breakdown of how every article is constructed this time of year is spot-on, but Keri concludes with what the Mets should do — lock Ike up to a relatively big deal at the end of year — rather than whether or not he will become a star.

by CajoleJuice on Apr 28, 2011 7:19 PM EDT reply actions  

yea

didn’t read the article. my b

by Sam Page on Apr 28, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're still cool

I guess I’m quick to defend Keri (despite the legit problems you pointed out) because I think he’s easily the best addition the site has ever made.

by CajoleJuice on Apr 28, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont know

that article at least didn’t do it for me because he didn’t really dive into whats making Ike better. After the first 2 paragraphs he barely cites any stats, just kind of opines for awhile

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Apr 28, 2011 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Davis cuts down on his swings at balls low and away he'll definitely improve

When I looked at his pitch f/x data for last year at BtBS I found that he offered at 80% of pitches thrown in that area last year, and his performance on those swings was abysmal.

If he’s laying off those pitches more it will force pitchers to offer up more balls he can handle.

Hmm, maybe that’s my topic for next week…

by Bill Petti on Apr 28, 2011 7:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Ike is definitely

A more powerful hitter than Overbay. Overbay has always struck me as one of those average 1B types who will give you a consistent .280/15/75, even back to his days in Arizona. Ike absolutely RIPPED some bombs at Citi Field last year, ala the few times we saw Delgado hit them at home. That type of raw power can’t be taught. If his pitch selection improves, there’s no reason why he shouldn’t settle into 28-32 home run territory.

Amazin Avenue Offseason Plan Contest Winner - 2011 Mets

by MattT516 on Apr 28, 2011 8:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I love Fangraphs, but I often get the feeling that some of the authors never watch much games.

Other than their hometown team which leads to some shoddy opinions on individual players (usually young NL players it seems)

by FrancoTAU on Apr 28, 2011 8:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The bombs Ike hit at Citi this week still havent come down

If they are unaware of Ike’s power then they havent been watching him play.

Fangraphs, I enjoy reading their rticles but if they turned ou down Sam…fuck em.

Big fan of the Assassinate Kevin Burkhardt Society

by scott from peekskill on Apr 28, 2011 9:59 PM EDT reply actions  

new article title name

are the mariners really #6 org?

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Apr 28, 2011 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

o wait

thats like a year old, nevermind

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Apr 28, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cerrone-esque

And late April fangraphs critique = spot on.

by Juve1899 on Apr 28, 2011 11:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

"Ike has more raw power than any Met I've ever seen--"

One word: Darryl Strawberry.

Okay—that’s two words. Two pretty cool words. But Darryl hit balls off the handle of the bat that were harder than Davis’s shots. It’s not that Davis doesn’t have legit power, but let’s keep some perspective. I couldn’t help noticing that we had a poll not long ago and Davis was projected to end his career somewhere between clear-cut HOFer Jeff Bagwell, and clear-cut HOFer (imho) Keith Hernandez.

I’d just hate to see Ike fall prey to heightened expectations where if he has a bunch of .280/25/90 seasons he’s considered a disappointment. What’s great, to me, now, is that a year ago Ike was at best plan D, falling somewhere after Daniel Murphy, and after that guy from Long Island, and after MIKE FREAKING JACOBS. Only a year later we’re legitimately thinking that he might have an All-Star season or two in him.

by Brian Singer on Apr 29, 2011 12:05 AM EDT reply actions  

dang, you missed out Sam Page :)

Darryl had the prettiest swing and longest HOMER hit I’ve ever seen, no offense to Ike Davis :).

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Apr 29, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Darryl's swing looked practically identical to Ted Williams'

Strawberry was called the “black Ted Williams” because of that. Some differences between the two were that Darryl had more power, and much more speed. Darryl was also taller, so he had a larger strike zone. Other differences include that Ted Williams was obsessed with becoming the best hitter ever, while Strawberry was more focused on partying. I believe that Darryl could have been a 150 WAR career player. It’s such a shame that Strawberry wasted his talent.

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Apr 29, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another rap on Darryl was that he wasn't "baseball smart".

Not for nothing was a small area of worn grass in RF called “The Strawberry Patch”. He never seemed to be able to muster an interest in adapting his positioning to the hitter at the plate, and I’m sure if Davey Johnson thought Straw was capable of making use of it Johnson would have signaled positioning from the bench.

by Brian Singer on Apr 29, 2011 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wise guy :)

I can almost swear I was at Shea when Straw hit a home run off the big scoreboard, well over halfway up, and it was still climbing. In recollection I may be overstating it a little, but to call it a moonshot would be a disservice.

by Brian Singer on Apr 29, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two more words

Dave Kingman

Yes, I’m old.

"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning

by blains2000 on Apr 29, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shh.

There’s this thing called “video”. You coulda passed for twenty, you know.

But yeah. Kingman was a human launching pad.

by Brian Singer on Apr 30, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Er..

Per pitch numbers are ahead of per-at-bat numbers at this point in the game – he should have seen something like 300 pitches by now, right. If swing and contact percentages are reliable by now, which they are according to pizza cutter’s work, then I think swSTR% might be considered somewhat reliable at this point, on the 70% level maybe.

And I think FanGraphs is the best general baseball site on the web. I don’t think a stats-based site should just take the first month-plus of the season off, there’s plenty to say even with caveats.

But obviously I’m biased.

by Eno Sarris on Apr 29, 2011 1:57 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

That's exactly the kind of pointed analysis that sweeps simplistic SSS objections to the side

and gives some credibility to the idea that Davis has very likely taken a real step forward.

by Brian Singer on Apr 29, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

the true question

is dave cameron better than we mets fans think? the answer – no, he is worse

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Apr 29, 2011 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes, and that's so difficult to do these days.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 30, 2011 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

The mechanics of the Votto comparison aren't really relevant

to these type of “let’s assess the true talent level of [player]!” articles. I mean, you compared Ike to Jeff Bagwell (who, interestingly, might compare very well to a right-handed Votto in terms of both stats and mechanics). You did mention a couple of caveats in the article, but it’s the same idea as Keri’s. You’ve also compared Davis to Lance Berkman, who wouldn’t compare to Ike in terms of mechanics or build.

It’s also surprising that you’re gushing about Ike’s power now whereas last year you wondered, in that same article, if home run distance is indicative of power. After being a Davis-hater of sorts you’ve now completely turned the other direction.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Apr 29, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

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