New Yorker Joins Mets' Madoff Fray via Extensive Fred Wilpon Interview
by Matthew Artus on May 23, 2011 10:00 AM EDT
Email
PrintIn this week's issue of the New Yorker, Jeffrey Toobin provides an extensive look at the pro-Wilpon side to the ongoing Madoff mess by offering extensive comments from Fred Wilpon, Saul Katz, the Wilpons' lawyers, and, of course, Bernie Madoff among others. Toobin's story offers an intimate summary to what brought the Wilpons to the present, precarious state engulfing the owners of your New York Mets.
By the very nature of civil proceedings, you will find no smoking guns in Toobin's article to exonerate or doom the present ownership. It reiterates some points we already knew, clarifies a few issues, and creates controversies that will give the likes of Mike Francesa some material to propagate the anti-Wilpon faith.
Toobin opens his article by providing the Wilpons' back story -- Fred's humble Brooklyn beginnings, how he wound up in real estate (the short version: religious discrimination), how he convinced Sandy Koufax to pick up a baseball, how he came to own the Mets... You've heard a lot of this before. There's a lot more detail to it and paints a full picture of how Fred Wilpon made the Wilpons a Mets household name, but you can probably ballpark the details if you've even casually maintained an interest in the Wilpons.
Besides the Wilpon bio, a few notable themes jumped out from Toobin's article:
- Fred Wilpon's involvement with Bernie Madoff came about because an adolescent Jeff Wilpon wanted to borrow the boat of Bernie's son Mark. The relationship begins as two dads becoming casually acquainted because their sons were good friends and grows into a casual friendship. Toobin does a nice job recounting what rich friends like Bernie Madoff and Fred Wilpon do when they hang out and frames it to clear up any misconceptions about the duo being busom buddies.
- The Wilpons know real estate, but don't quite understand the world of finance. This is the crux of the "dupe" argument - The Wilpons didn't know about Madoff's ponzi scheme because they were, at best, average minds in the financial market. Wilpon received a referral for Madoff by an old friend and later had that referral reaffirmed by economist Peter Stamos -- who was brought in by the Wilpons in 2002 to diversify their portfolio in case Madoff ever left the business. (You'll recall that Stamos's alleged warnings about Madoff are a major part of Picard's case.) Toobin also speculates on one of the major holes in the case against the Wilpons by asking:
Most important, if Wilpon and his partners had so many reasons to suspect that Madoff was a fraud, why did they leave so much money under his supervision? Their huge commitment of money to Madoff's care seems to suggest that they thought Madoff was legitimate, not that he was running a Ponzi scheme. "I don't think Fred knew Bernie was about to go out of business," a person close to Picard said. "Bernie was paying as he did in the past. There was no way to know that there was a run on the bank."
- Fred Wilpon's inner circle refer to themselves as "the old farts' club." The club prides itself on laying claim to their blue collar, outer-borough roots rather than their successful careers. That sometimes includes a "Back in My Day" race to the bottom regarding each member's background:
During one recent lunch together, the old farts had a contest of sorts to determine who grew up in the most modest of circumstances. They had all shared a bedroom with siblings, but Wilpon was deemed the winner, because he was the only one who had to share with his sister.
- Fred Wilpon claimed responsibility for the botched Citi Field opening by saying:
"All the Dodger stuff--that was an error of judgment on my part."
- You will be beaten over the head this week by Fred Wilpon's out-of-context appraisals of his present players at an April game that induced our own Eric Simon to ponder if the team had hit rock bottom yet. So let's get to the quotables that will turn a pro-Wilpon story into the latest Mets' PR disaster. After describing Jose Reyes as a "racehorse," Wilpon assesses Reyes's purported desire to receive a contract similar to the seven-year, $142 million given to Boston's Carl Crawford by saying:
"He's had everything wrong with him. He won't get it."
- On David Wright:
"A very good kid. A very good player. Not a superstar."
- On Carlos Beltran:
"We had some schmuck (referring to himself) who paid him based on that one series (the 2004 postseason)... He's sixty-five to seventy percent of what he was."
- And the award for money quote that has nothing to do with Madoff but will nonetheless haunt Mets fans indefinitely goes to Fred Wilpon's analysis of Ike Davis:
"Good hitter," Wilpon said. "Shitty team -- good hitter."
Before you go calling WFAN to vent about how out of touch the Wilpons are with reality, please give Toobin's article a read. It paints a fair picture of an honest man trying to do right in his business endeavors and in the Mets' endeavors but lands himself in trouble due to misguided loyalties. Unfortunately, it also captures what feels like a terminal case of foot-in-mouth disease plaguing a Mets ownership that was oh-so-close to not antagonizing its fan base for a change.
Whether you agree with that perspective is one thing, but hearing it from the primary source should at least provide better insight than the rampant speculation that pervades a story that will cloud Metsopotamia for quite a while to come. In context or not, these words are Fred Wilpon's own. Please recall that they were uttered in the context of the Wilpons' survival -- a case that Toobin describes succinctly by saying:
...to salvage his reputation and his fortune, Wilpon must prove that he was a dupe rather than a crook.
Try to remember that distinction as you become tempted to label the Wilpons as idiots for letting this happen.
116 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Well done, Matt.
It paints a fair picture of an honest man trying to do right in his business endeavors and in the Mets’ endeavors but lands himself in trouble due to misguided loyalties.
That’s about what I got out of it.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
I haven't had time to read the full story yet
But I agree with this, sounds like that’s on point.
However, I still think what he said is pretty crazy.
"Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!"
Toobin might have painted that picture
but that hardly means it true.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
by Rey-O on May 23, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+100000000000000000
I don’t understand why Amazin Avenue of all places has so many people willing to swallow whatever pro Fred spin comes out of the media. Toobin is a great writer but if he thinks that this is all about Wilpon being a dupe rather than a crook he is simply legally wrong. It is legal to be a dupe even with other people’s money that they have entrusted to you (see the pension case) or of course your own money. But it subjects you to clawbacks and legal liability under our system if you turned a blind eye to solid evidence that you and your beneficiaries were being duped because you were friends with Madoff for years and/or in too deep to get out. That is what Picard is trying to prove and nothing the MSM Wilpon defenders have come up with has weakned his case thus far. He has not prove it either but the Wilpons haven’t come up with squat and their comments may actually hurt them legally. I have said before that the best thing Wilpon can do right now is keep his mouth shut but it does not look like he is going to.
by Endys Game on May 23, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
and of course I am not even dealing with the comments he made about his own players
which are beyond stupid.
how can picard prove that?
how is this not a waste of EVERYONEs time?
I LIKE IKE!
by astromets on May 23, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
really?
You think one of the top law firms in the city, if not the country that has already recovered millions and millions from people raising the exact same defenses as the Wilpons, is wasting its time bringing a case it knows it can’t win? Interesting.
I realize this is a hard concept for non-lawyers to swallow but under the civil law you can be responsibile for things that other people do with money that is entrusted to you. Think of it like this, If you gave me $ 10,000 to safeguard and I put it under my bed and the house caught fire by an arsonist , you might be upset but you probably wouldn’t blame me too much. But what if I gave it to my 21 year old brother who was a big party guy Would you let me off just because I insisted I did not know he was going to waste it on booze and blow?
first of all, I do science
not law, religion or politics, so please don’t be snappy at me for not knowing stuff I don’t care to know.
As for this example, how do you prove that I gave the money to my druggy brother who blew vs left it under my mattress when my house burned down? My party guy brother is always doing more drugs than he can afford and there are no receipts for buying drugs, so unless you get a confession from him, how do you prove that?
Basically, Picard would need to at least prove that Wilpon knew Madoff was a ‘party guy’. Since Madoff has repeatedly said that the Wilpon’s were just some dumb friends he duped, proving that seems impossible to me without something like a taped conversation.
I LIKE IKE!
Picard's case
seems to be built in no small part on warnings that a rational person should have heeded, but Sterling did not – ergo, they’re crooks who were in cahoots, or they’re dupes who are nonetheless liable.
I don’t know who will win the case, but it does look to me like they disregarded a whole lot of red flags.
as the defendant for the Wilpons
I would like to draw our attention to the most damning evidence that Wilpon is a dumbass — the current state of the Mets. In 1986, Wilpon bought 50% of the Mets when they were the talk of NYC and WS winners. 25 years later, they are the joke of MLB and haven’t won another WS since.
I LIKE IKE!
If you don't care to know about it
then why do you comment on it? And I don’t blame you for not understanding it. As I said, it is a concept a lot of people have trouble with. But what SuperT says is correct.
Just don’t make silly off the cuff statements about things you by your own admission don’t know much about and we will be fine.
how was my first comment off the cuff?
i don’t care to study law, that doesn’t mean that i am not allowed to ask questions about whats going on or will want to understand something. All you had to do was answer my questions, not treat me like a dumbass for not knowing law.
I commented because in this case, I really don’t see how you can possibly prove what Picard is trying to prove (which was my question that you didn’t really answer); and since that seems like such an impossible task in this specific case (I don’t know bout the others they are recouping money from, I just know about the dumbasses that sign the checks for the Mets), I wonder how this case is not a waste of everyones time.
you answered the second part and i get that they are going to try and get as much money back as possible, and save no one from the necessary scrutiny.
I LIKE IKE!
I really was not trying to treat you like a dumbass
I was actually trying to do the opposite. I have poor communication skills I guess. The point is it is ok to be skeptical about Picard’s case but it seems kind of silly to just conclude it is a big waste of time because you don’t understand how he intends to prove it. He has more credibility than that.
why not simply read the complaint?
It is on-line. Yes it is rather long but you can skip the legal boilerplate and just read the various incidents that Picard says were red flags. Then decide for yourself if you agree.
But none of this changes the fact that Wilpon is an idiot for other reasons.
It's a great article.
I cringed a bit about the quotes about the team, but I think the Beltran comment was a joke and reference to injuries. The Jose comment was about money and is essentially a prediction about the market (though easily misconstrued as “we won’t pay him”). The Wright comment, well, I think that is his honest opinion and probably the opinion of 75% of people here.
If Wilpon wants to criticize his players
he should get an AA handle and post criticisms anonymously (hmmm. . . .) or as “FreddieBrooklyn” or “DodgerLovr” or “KoufaxisKing” or what have you. There’s a big, big, big difference when it’s the idiot owner spouting off. Judgment is, has been, and continues to be very, very poor when it comes to the Mets.
i always assumed he was lohaus
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 23, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
except that old Douche Bag doesn't have the wherewithall to use the internetz KM
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure.
I applaud the effort to paint Fred Wilpon as more of a sympathetic figure, but what I see is a man who made and continues to make very poor decisions. He is a passionate guy and I get where his heart is, but he is a habitual bungler who may think he is in love with the Mets, but he still says Brooklyn Dodgers every time we make love. I mean watch baseball.
by Jamesir Bensonmum on May 23, 2011 10:24 AM EDT reply actions
so when do the anti-Wilpon signs start coming out to Shea...I mean "citi Field"?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I guess it works...
…if the point is a Madoff defense like “I’m not a crook, I’m just not that great at what i do.”
So Let It Be Written, So Let it Be Done.
Great article
Still a putz.
Listen, he openly badmouthed his team by calling them shitty, potentially angered a superstar he has to negotiate with this winter, took a shot at the guy who has been the face of this franchise and who has done everything this organization has asked him to do from a p.r. perspective, and then essentially said that Beltran wasn’t worth the investment.
by dcmetsfan on May 23, 2011 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
This is the TEAM. OWNER. I can say David Wright is not a superstar. I’m a frigging peanut gallery fan. He writes David’s checks. If I were Wright, I keep my mouth shut, play out my contract, and get moving as soon as it’s up. Reyes should call up the Yankees and volunteer to DH until Jeter retires. Wilpon is a fucking joke.
At this point, as Mets fans, should we be rooting for Picard to win his case
in order to force the sale of the team?
Is having the Wilpons as the owners more beneficial to the team
that some potential anonymous new owner?
no Alderson
It’s not inconceivable that new owner would want to fill his front office with different guys.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
I've been rooting for it
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Yes.
After this article, I sincerely wish destitution upon this man.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
let the feasting begin
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=6577486
goddamnit so much
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 23, 2011 10:38 AM EDT reply actions
Bullshit
“paints a fair picture of an honest man trying to do right in his business endeavors and in the Mets’ endeavors but lands himself in trouble due to misguided loyalties”
Sorry, Artus, but this is how reporters get meat. When a man is focused on protecting one part of his life, policing what he says with regard to that, he can’t give much attention to policing everything else he says. Wilpon, focused on his Madoff troubles, gave us a clear picture of how he views his team. And it’s the picture we’ve all seen these recent years – the burden is placed on the stars, who HAVE performed, while the cause of the troubles, the surrounding structure, is paid no mind at all. It’s a rotten structure, and God pity the stars (not superstars, natch), for finding themselves in this fucked-up mess of a situation.
I despise Wilpon this morning, because he holds a sacred trust, but for he and Katz it appears to have been mostly a self-aggrandizing bauble: “You take the chairman of the board of a bank, with his grandson, on the field to meet David Wright… it opens up everything.” “the Dodger stuff—that was an error of judgment on my part.” The team has been a plaything. This is human, yes, but nonetheless it’s a failure of management with regard to the team that actually exists, the team that people care about right now.
I repeat myself, but as I said in the other post on the topic, Wilpon’s gesture – the checked swing that was misinterpreted as a comment on Beltran (as we know from a myriad of calls to the FAN, Beltran never got the bat off his shoulder, there was no checked swing) – was actually a very apropos gesture encapsulating his ownership of the team: a checked swing – an ill-informed, ineffective half-measure, as his ownership has been.
by SuperT on May 23, 2011 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 11 recs
Excellent job, SuperT.
Rec’d.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on May 23, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Re:Check swing
was it misinterpreted or is Wilpon just too dumb to remember Beltran never swung?
So if we are to say that things *might* have been said out of context....
…..and assuming that if I’m sitting next to any one of you and having a few drinks I might say something taken out of context here and there….even with those caveats, I know I would never say those things about Reyes and Wright.
I especially wouldn’t say that if I was sitting next to, I don’t know, a guy from the New Yorker doing an article on me.
I have a feeling that Wilpon’s excuses, which are sure to come out in the next few days, are going to fail.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
Nah
The Wilpons are idiots for letting this happen. Bad organizations blame their best players for their struggles. The Mets are a bad organization. I used to defend Fred Wilpon but no more. He is a disgrace.
by James Kannengieser on May 23, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 14 recs
Best five sentences
that I’ve read about the situation. Rec’d.
Proud to root for the Jets, Mets, and Islanders!!!
by CharlieIsles on May 23, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Betrayed the trust of the 1000s of paying customers that have helped the family make their money over the years.
"Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!"
eh
I hate when losing organizations blame their players for building mansions on the offseason and suggest they test the waters elsewhere in negotiations.
It’s irrelevant jibberish. It’s in bad taste but has nothign to do with how the organization is run below him. Supposedly he doesn’t even get involved in the baseball decisions.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
Um
There’s no way you can have a blithering idiot at the top of an organization and not have it affect baseball decisions, if only because he has to sign the checks, and he’s the guy who picked the people who set up the organization. You mean to tell me he had nothing to do with, say, whether or not the Mets paid over slot, how much they invest in player development and scouting, etc.?
Uhh
I hate when losing organizations blame their players for building mansions on the offseason and suggest they test the waters elsewhere in negotiations.
Does this happen a lot?
by James Kannengieser on May 23, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
yup
all the damn time. last spring A-Rod was ducking meetings with Feds. The comments are really unrelated to the overall structure/functioning of the team. Two negatives (stupid comments and a struggling team) tend to get correlated when you look at them, but that doesn’t mean one caused the other.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
No, it doesn't
but in the real world, if you see a cavalcade of bad decisions, and the guy at the top of the pyramid is continually talking out of the shit-spraying end, the safer bet is that there’s a connection.
is it?
He’s always tried to claim that the GMs make all the decisions. And it’s not like there are obvious perfect answers to baseball decisions to say that they all turned out bad was easy to forsee.
I think you’re looking at it too closely trying to tie all the Mets woes to the owners.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
No
I’m saying it’s not credible that the baseball decisions are made completely independently. I’m also saying that when he opens his mouth, he takes a ginormous deuce all over his major investment. It’s not that the comments cause the poor decisions. It’s that they are evidence of a generally incompetent decisionmaker. That he surrounds himself with fellow incompetents (like, ya know, his son) does not absolve him.
Obviously the comments are not the direct cause of a team's lousy play
I don’t think anyone would assert that so it’s hardly worth discussing. The point is, it’s endemic of the organization’s problems. You don’t see Theo Epstein telling people that Youkilis and Pedroia don’t have an edge. You don’t see John Henry saying that players are 65-70% of their former selves.
by James Kannengieser on May 23, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't pay attention
I bet you could find some sloppy comments from them if you looked. That’s why I referenced the Yankees ones because they’re local and you hear them. Do you think Brewers fans right now are laughing at the Mets owner or even noticing these comments?
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
I'm not sure about that
It seems that the Sox have a good grip on their PR machine, at least from my experience of living in New England
"Lopez wants it away, and it's hit deep to left center, Andruw Jones on the run, this one has a chance... home run!, Mike Piazza!, and the Mets lead 3 to 2!"
probably
but I can’t speak to it, I don’t pay attention.
But this certainly isn’t a Wilpon-exclusive thing. I’m not even sure it’s a baseball thing. Rich people in charge do tend to spout off.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
. . to reporters. Doing stories on them.
You don’t think these guys have 35 opportunities per day to trash their players? They have to know not to say crap like that. Have to.
but
they don’t. it happens all the time. not just with the Mets. People that should know better say things. Reporters push them into a 36th opportunity to say something. They hang around for the low point of the season when emotions are at their most fragile and pounce.
stupid comments and off the cuff remarks just don’t have any correlation to bad or good the Mets are run.
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
well
do MORE random comments and remarks mean that it’s more likely that he’s acting on them in decision making meetings with Alderson? or are they simple the disconnected words of an owner who later is sat down and convinced of the right move by the people he’s hired to do so, and signs off on?
-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan
I think we're done here
In short, get back to the real world. this is YET ANOTHER example of Wilpon incompetence. This is a shit organization. this is the latest example of why and how the Wilpons are incompetent. It is safe to assume that all of the incompetence is bundled into a single foul-smelling blob of stupidity in which our beloved Mets are entombed.
yes I think Brewers fans are laughing
I would laugh at NY’s misfortune if I were an outsider, and I would hear about it because its a top story on most sports websites.
I LIKE IKE!
I would wager that every team's fans are laughing at us right now.
Even the Dodgers.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
at least we can laugh back at the dodgers
and the pirates
I LIKE IKE!
HELLO HELLO MR. WILPON
WE WANT THE PLAYERS WHO BUILD MANSIONS IN THE OFFSEASON NOT THE PLAYERS WHO BUILD CONDOS IN THE OFFSEASON
by JoshNY on May 23, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
so you're saying you'd prefer the condo?
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 23, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That is an over reaction
Like everyone else, Fred Wilpon has an opinion, that doesnt make him a disgrace.
"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."
by Dandy Salderson on May 23, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
*Should add
That doesnt make him a disgrace, per se, but he remains a buffoon nonetheless.
"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."
by Dandy Salderson on May 23, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone has an opinion
But sometimes it’s best to keep that opinion private.
by James Kannengieser on May 23, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course
Im not disputing that he put his foot in his mouth, but the content of the opinion is not all that offensive, relative to, say, investing the employee pension account in a hedge fund, or stubbornly refusing to replace Omar for two years.
"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."
by Dandy Salderson on May 23, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So beautfully put in so few words.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The world didn't end.
Neither did Fred Wilpon’s tendency to say stupid things. Whether the things he said were taken out of context or accurate doesn’t matter. How you say them at all to a reporter is beyond me.
Seriously
I mean, is he aware that the Mets are looking to trade Carlos Beltran this year? Saying that he’s a shell of his former self isn’t the best way about doing that, idiot.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
The "he's a well-meaning guy" excuses
can only go so far. Why in the world is everybody and his mother bending over backwards to excuse this cementhead? I guess, because he made money in real estate, he must get the benefit of the doubt? We think there must be — has to be — something there to justify how this oaf attained a position of power. But there isn’t. He’s an outlier who got lucky and pressed the flesh of the right “in” crowd. And the wrong “in crowd”, too, to the tune of whatever Picard does or doesn’t get. (Seriously, maybe it’s part of his Madoff defense — look as stupid as possible so people think you’re gullible and not crooked.)
"I am not a crook"--Wilpons
let’s hope they get suspended or finally sell this franchise.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Prediction
Mets.com e-mail letter from “Fred Wilpon” goes out to fans this afternoon, talking about how much he loves the Mets and is as passionate as we are, leaves the baseball decisions to the baseball people, and appreciates everything Reyes and Wright have done for the team, blah, blah, blah, but sometimes his passion leads him to be overly candid, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Wilpons= dumbest shmucks who ever owned a sports franchise?
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Some fans in Baltimore might disagree
though at least Angelos appears to have learned and improved.
And Dan Snyder has been a disaster. He took a beloved regional institution and turned it into a warmup act for a hockey team and collective joke. But Wilpon is easily top five.
3 parts of the interview: his background, the comments about the players and team/Wilpon finances
The comments about the player should never have been spoken but:
Reyes: we don’t know how the negotiations between them have proceeded, what kind of contract demands his agent has presented (if any). Who knows if this means that Reyes won’t give any hometown discount?
Beltran: he was mocking himself, but some people are misquoting or misunderstanding, thinking he was blaming Omar. If Beltran was an 8 WAR player before, 65-70% is around 5 WAR player now. Obviously he knows nothing about player valuation and $/WAR and maybe disregard the decline in production of aging players, including injuries, but 5 WAR is still slightly optimistic.
Wright: not the same production as 06-08, he doesn’t specify what he considers a superstar
Ike: nothing new. We knew we had a bad team.
So, obviously he shouldn’t talk about his players like that, but what impresses the most are his words about Reyes.
Concerning the team finances:
In any given year, it made or lost a small amount of money; Wilpon ran it as a roughly break-even operation
In 2009, the year Citi Field opened, the Mets drew about 3.2 million fans. Last year, attendance fell to 2.6 million. This year, with another poor team, the Mets are on track to draw perhaps 2.4 million
Wilpon also pledges that the money from the new outside investor will go directly into the Mets, rather than be shared with other Sterling ventures. An increase of just two hundred thousand fans would also add about twenty-five million to the team’s coffers.
So, compared to 2009, the team lost 1m in attendance or $ 125m per year. Not all of that money goes to to team, as there is revenue sharing and other compensations. Still, if the numbers are correct that is a really significant drop in revenue.
Let’s suppose just for a second that the team finances are separate from the owners AND the $200m is really going for the team. That money would cover for a few years of reduced attendance to keep the team current payroll. Since we have so little information about the team overall finances ($ besides player expenses), it’s hard to make anything out of it. Like what would happen to the payroll if the attendance stays at 2.2m.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Correction 0.8m drop in attendence and $100m in revenue.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
I don't care
if he wrote an impassioned, Posnanski-esque, stat-laden derivation of precisely why his statements were correct. The manager of a fucking Hardee’s would know not to say to a reporter “ya know, our hamburgers are OK, but not great. Our fries are a pale shadow of what they used to be. Our chicken sandwiches are ridiculously overpriced.”
by tmu on May 23, 2011 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Well...
I agree with you that the owner of the team shouldn’t be saying anything remotely negative about his players’ production (no matter if his assessment is correct or not), but I don’t think your Hardee’s comparison is right. While there is some blurring of distinctions in the entertainment business, Carlos Beltran, et al, are employees, not products. Human beings, not sandwiches. It would be more like if the Hardee’s owner said that the fries are OK but Jimmy the cashier has been slow lately, or Sally the cook forgot to put cheese on a burger today.
You're missing the point.
Don’t take the analogy too literally. He’s saying things that are damaging to his business. Whether it’s hurting goodwill among his employees or trashing the “product” to his fans, it’s something that nearly anyone with a stake in anything would know not to say about his business.
No, I think I got your point,
and I think you’re right- he shouldn’t be saying negative things about the product, but I think that the fact he was talking about his employees significantly changes the business implications of his actions (as well as changes the ethical considerations). A Hardee’s chicken sandwich can’t tell Fred to shove it and leave to go work for Burger King. Sally the cook can. I think, in the long run, it’s worse for your business to publicly trash your employees than your product, since saying bad things about your employees both calls the quality of the product as well as the management of the organization into question. You can say, “We’re looking to improve our chicken sandwich, which is good, but not great,” and not hurt your brand very much. If you say, “Sally the cook isn’t great, we’re looking for someone better,” I think you’ve scared people away.
I’m probably beleaguering this point. Don’t mind me.
Ownership and management
say these things quite often about business. Our execution was poor, or product mix was wrong. Actually, owners will quite often give managers an earful at shareholders meetings. Personalizing it is of course a mistake. Even if I don’t disagree. Wright hasn’t played like a superstar for 3 years or so. Depending on where you set the line. Reyes, if not injury “prone” has had 2-3 years truncated or effected by injuries. Beltran isn’t what he once was. No need to say it, but I don’t think it’s as if Jack Z. says “Wait, Beltran isn’t what he used to be? Damn, good thing I didn’t offer Nick Franklin, Dustin Ackley and Pineda for beltran.”
I’ll grant you its pretty dumb, but hardly epic fail. I think it sounds more like a guy trying to grease the skids and get the fans used to the idea that these players may be gone. That’s where he is really failing. Selling the fans short, even though many have called for a housecleaning (Reyes is a helluva lot more popular now than he was this offseason, it seems).
I don’t believe in a public trust the owners must uphold. Fred may even believe that more than I do. But to me the squandering of these 3 players’ primew, which was partially due to injuries, but mostly due to an ineptitude that is shocking, is just extremely sad.
The real bitterness is not that Wilpon says things that are hardly patently false. But David Wright WAS a superstar and is young enough to still be. Jose Reyes gave you 3 excellent seasons of full health as one of the most and maybe the most exciting player in baseball. Carlos Beltran was also a superstar, and is still quite good now that he is healthy. You had all 3 at their peaks at once. You squandered it, almost as surely as if you pissed away money investing in a ponzi scheme.
There are plenty of ways to make certain criticisms in the proper context
a CEO of a company that didn’t meet expectations will have to come up with something. If you’re the owner of a baseball team, the orthologous action would be to say “we’ve had some injuries. Sure, we gave out some bad contracts. We may need to make some moves to improve — I understand that. But we have some exciting players and some of the best players in baseball, and I feel good about these guys. Does that mean we won’t have to make any changes to compete? Of course not. We need to make changes and we will make changes” blah, blah, blah. A kindergartener could write this stuff. Different analogy, closer to AceMcFlint’s: Fred owns a high end Manhattan restaurant. “[Former Iron] Chef Okazaki: he’s a good chef, but he’s no superstar. My other chefs just aren’t what they used to be. But we still have a huge markup on bad wine!”
Ha
you’re right of course. It’s easy to say the right things (and I already know you’d make a better owner). Kinda boring though. No one is fooled by any of these platitudes, nor do i believe it changes the value of the players as trade chips, etc. But at least it doesn’t make for a huge spotlight on the team and players. And I suppose it may alienate certain players from wanting to play for this guy.
It’s not possible to defend him really. It’s pretty asinine.
No one believes the platitudes
but at the same time, they serve some purpose. So many social interactions are just about checking off boxes to show that you understand norms and customs. When you don’t, when you go astray, as Fred did, the deviation is as alarming as the content. You go to a job interview, you don’t say “at times in the past I have found myself unfocused, posting on AA instead of thinking about my work.” Now, we know that spending time on AA is obviously the sign of an intelligent, thoughtful, creative future employee. SIGN THAT GUY UP! But in the real world, that would be as good as yelling “VA-VA-VOOOOM!” and unzipping your fly. You’re expected to “humbly” talk yourself up, instead. And most people know that it’s a line of bullshit, too. But they’re judging you on how you handle the situation as much as, if not more than, the substance.
You may not believe it's a public trust
but the only reason baseball has held on to its anti-trust exemption is because of rhapsodizing on the court about its unique position in American life.
I'll also take those infrastructure improvements back, thanks.
If you know how important your business is to people, especially when it’s something you bought into, as opposed to created, you’re a serious ass if you completely disregard your role as a “steward” of sorts. You’d have to have a copy of Atlas Shrugged sewn to your eyebrow to not have some sense of responsibility.
I know that
but I never really thought much about it. Seems like it’s a public trust when it suits them.
by wobatus on May 23, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Given that this is how Wilpon feels about Wright, Reyes, and Beltran
I wonder what he thinks about Jason Bay?
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Jason Nay, I like that new nickname better
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
or Fail Rod's Vest
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
DW + TC comment/response:
DW Email – "Fred Wilpon is a good man and is obviously going through some difficult times. There is nothing more productive that I can say at this point."
Terry Collins on Fred Wilpon’s assertion the team is sh—: “I’m not going to get into that comment. I can’t.”
That would've been a great little ribshot back
He’s a good, not great, man….
LOL, oy vey Fred
Wright may not be a superstar,
but he’s got more class than Freddie does.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
setting a low bar there
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 23, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole thing is like a "bailout" for loudmouthed talk radio idiots
Fred, Fred, Fred. . . . .
hes a moron
now hes becoming senile. bad for the Mets, maybe good for his case
I LIKE IKE!
Look, if he can't afford to put Reyes in the lineup... Get out of New York City.
I’ve had enough of this bullshit. This is New York City, not Kansas City, not Pittsburgh, not Tampa Bay. We’re not a small market ballclub. This is the largest city in the country with the largest Metropolitan area. There’s fans of this club from all over the world.
Fred Wilpon claims he’s a baseball fan, but where does it claim he’s a business fan? Doesn’t he know that Jose Reyes and David Wright are the faces of his franchise? Doesn’t he know that if he doesn’t sway the Front Office to keep these two, his attendance is going to plummet even more?
If Reyes or Wright goes, that’s seriously the last straw. I don’t know if I’ll watch the Mets for a long time if that happens. 25 years of season tickets in my family will definitely come to an end, as this is the sentiment we all have. If I wanted to root for a team that gets rid of their stars on a yearly basis, I’d hop on the Tampa bandwagon. But frankly I’m just speechless, these shouldn’t even be rumors. Look at Troy Tulowitzski, Ryan Braun, Evan Longo… You know what those contracts represent? Loyalty to the fans. Even look at what the Yankees just did: everything in their power to keep Derek Jeter a Yankee, even if it meant paying about 500% of his value. That says something to fans. Letting Reyes and/or Wright go will basically say to me: “Fuck you and your loyalty.”
So if Fred Wilpon wants to talk about his players like this, fine. I don’t care. As long as at the end of the day they’re still his players, I don’t care what he has to say. I don’t care what he has to do to make sure they stay in the ballclub, but a fruitless decision like getting rid of Jose Reyes or David Wright will almost ensure my tenure as a loyal, game-going Mets fan will come to a close.
traveling photoshooper.
i hate shane victorino more than anyone else.
why i refuse to support reyes's or wright's departure | k counter tutorials: part 1 part 2
sparbz.com
@sparbz
by sparbz on May 23, 2011 11:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i havent had a chance to read the article yet (finals are coming up) but i just have to say this
i hate this man so much. he has now officially entered the otherworldly realm of jeter, clemens and castillo in my book. there is no going back at this point. i’d be perfectly cool if any random met fan had these sentiments about the team (even though i basically disagree w/ them – they are still fair opinions). coming from an absolute a-hole of an owner (and i am someone who usually tries his hardest not to curse) it’s different. the guy has presided over the mets being run into the very depths of baseball hell; from the collapses, tony bernazard all the way to the madoff stuff (of which i’m honestly not sure who to believe). today is a sad sad day. i’m not in a very good place right now
metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?
Wilpon
He lost his fortune, his friend was the one who stole his money, the media makes him look like a fool, his son is revealed as a dummy, his beloved baseball team is a joke, he is being sued for being a thief himself… the guy wants to call Wright good but not great, let him call the guy good but not great. Jeez.
"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."
by Dandy Salderson on May 23, 2011 1:38 PM EDT reply actions
Poor guy
just let him shit on his baseball team owned by him that he owns because he is the owner of a professional, Major League Baseball franchise, in peace.
by tmu on May 23, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Think of all the victims of predatory lending in this country
who had to sell a 49% stake in their professional baseball team. Horrible.
I figured it out!
With George Steinbrenner out of the picture, there’s now an open competition for “craziest owner of an NYC professional sports team” and this was Fred’s attempt to distinguish himself from the Steinbrenner kids and the Dolans.
we're Mets fans.....
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 23, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i was thinking
it’s more that Omar is out of the picture and Saul LOL Katz is still the behind the scenes mastermind, Jeffy pouting, Fred HAD to take over the ill-advised public comments dept all by himself. Revise the organizational flow chart.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 23, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope txwrightgirl doesn't see this
The US Marshals wouldn’t be able to protect Freddy from her wrath.
dear god, you're right
her wrath would be legendary
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 23, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I'm sure she has
I’m surprised she hasn’t already come by to sound off yet.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 23, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Amazin' Avenue
Related FanShots on Amazin' Avenue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Stan Musial or not, it’s time for Albert Pujols to finally accept the ‘El Hombre’ nickname
- The 10 best things about being a Giants fan
- Spring Swing: Joe Maddon and Co. welcoming big expectations for Rays
- I, Zim Bear: This Rays giveaway is terrifying
- Ask Alex: Are Carl Crawford’s best years behind him?
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
