SB Nation New York Editor's Pick
Finding the Clutchiest Superstar
by dcmetsfan on May 25, 2011 1:11 PM EDT
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Print(Bumped from FanPosts. --Eric)
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Having digested a fair number of discussions about baseball over the years, it seems that a consensus has emerged among some fans about how to determine if a player is nothing more than a choking dog. A player might put up great regular season numbers, and in many cases even great post-season numbers, but if he fails in a single, notable instance he is clearly a choking dog and deserves to be labeled as such in all conversations about that player's career.
So I set out to find the superstar players, both current and historical, who meet the high standards of some our more enlightened baseball brethren. Could I find one noble-hearted lion who managed to succeed in all his endeavors? Would there be a player or perhaps even players who managed to land a big hit every time he stepped up to the plate in a "clutch" situation? Could I manage to find the clutchiest superstar in baseball history?
Below are the results of my experiment.
Hank Aaron: The true homerun king in many a fan's estimation, Aaron won a world title in 1957 for the Milwaukee Braves. Though Aaron posted a 1.116 OPS in three post-season series, including an insane 1.50 OPS in the three-game sweep at the hands of the Mets in the 1969 NLCS, he flew out in a critical at-bat in game 7 of the 1958 World Series.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Albert Pujols: Sure Albert won a world title with the Cardinals and launched a homerun against Brad Lidge in the 2005 NLCS that still has not landed, and sure he has a 1.009 career post-season OPS, but Albert went 0-4 in game six of that 2005 NLCS in a game the Cards lost 5-1.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Babe Ruth: The Sultan of Swat, the greatest player in the history of the game, and member of 7 world championship teams. Alas Ruth was caught stealing to end game 7 of the 1926 World Series.
Verdict: Choking Dog.
Alex Rodriguez: Come on, he's the only choking dog in the New York market who's an even bigger choking dog than David Wright or Carlos Beltran. Just ask any regular caller to WFAN.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Joe DiMaggio: So the guy won a measly nine world titles in ten tries, do you see the gap in that playing service between 1942 and 1946? Evidently Joltin Joe fought in World War II and failed to singlehandedly bring down the Nazis, leaving it up to Brad Pitt to do the job that the Clipper failed to do.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Ryan Howard: Won a world title with the Phillies in 2008. But then there's this.
Verdict: Choking Dog.
David Wright: Hey, I said superstars.
Verdict: Ineligible.
Ted Williams: See the explanation for Joe DiMaggio. Ted missed further playing time in the early 50s to fight in Korea. Ted's unclutchness in this war military engagement led to an unsatisfying conclusion to the conflict.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Mickey Mantle: Won 7 world titles and was in a World Series every year but two in his first fourteen years in the league. Was caught stealing once during the 1960 World Series, which the Yankees eventually lost in seven.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Barry Bonds: Despite a .700 OBP and 1.294 Slugging Percentage in the 2002 World Series, unclutchily failed to swing wildly at intentional balls and mash them into the seats. Whiffed against John Franco in the top of the 9th inning of game 3 of the 2000 NLDS. Plus he couldn't even throw out Sid Bream at home plate. Sid Bream? I mean come on.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Derek Jeter: Captain Clutch! Surely Captain Clutch has never failed to deliver in the post-season. We all know that he wills his team to victory through his steely resolve. One look from those beautiful eyes and his teammates are instantly entranced. Then, in the clutches of his Jedi mind control, he leads them to victory. We know that Jeter is the awesomest, bestest, winningest human being ever. He is Mr. November. His homerun in the 4th game of the 2001 World Series raised the spirits of an entire city. To even suggest that he's not clutch is a blasphemy that should turn the utterer to stone.
Oh, you mean he only had 3 other hits in that World Series? And then he went 3-17 in the 2007 ALDS against Cleveland. And he only hit .231 in last year's ALCS? Nevermind.
Verdict: Choking Dog
Conclusion: I tried. But despite my tireless efforts I could not find a clutch superstar, at least according to criteria of baseball's most demanding fans. I must therefore conclude that every player in the history of Major League Baseball is a choking dog.
Except Dave Eckstein. Of course.
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
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Brilliant.
Excellent work.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on May 24, 2011 10:24 PM EDT reply actions
my thought exactly,
simply Brilliant
Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "
by SuperSantana on May 25, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
i knew ruth was a bust
what a bum
I LIKE IKE!
And just think about how much better he could have been
if he hadn’t been preoccupied with chasing women, and stayed in shape. What a waste of talent.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 25, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Gonna say Chipper Jones, because never ones in my biased opinion has he failed to fuck us over, no matter the context.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 25, 2011 1:37 AM EDT reply actions
Many Braves you could say that about
Brain Jordan for instance
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on May 25, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Brian*
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on May 25, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
BRAIN JORDAN!!!
Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "
by SuperSantana on May 25, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean
Sir Dr Sen Brain Socks!
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on May 26, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The third.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 26, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Just imagine how good he could have been
if not for his obsession with taking over the world.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 26, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
What is the point of this post?
Is this satire in response to something real? Or is it just the usual “lets exaggerate every other fan who we say is dumber than us” type thing.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Sort of a sequel to my mini-rant
Just an exaggerated response to people whose main point of contention against Wright and Beltran are their failures in key spots – Wright striking out with Murphy on 3rd in that game in late September ’08 and Beltran striking out to end game 7 of the NLCS. These guys have been labeled chokers based on single at-bats, so I thought turnabout is fair play.
And yes, I have had conversations (on-line) recently with people who have harped about these incidences as the defining moments in each player’s respective career.
Most of these guys have won the World Series
If Mets win had won a World Series, their players probably wouldn’t have reputation either. Instead, they collapsed in ‘07 and ’08, which contributed to the “unclutch chokers” thing. In actuality, there really aren’t many other players in baseball who are called “chokers” on one at bat. I know the sarcastic posts are popular, but it just feels a bit ridiculous in this case. Although judging by the amount of recs you’ve gotten, I’m clearly in the wrong. :o
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
So the quality of the team you play with
Is in direct correlation to the clutchiness you possess? Is that what you’re saying?
by Mike Clemente on May 25, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm saying players that have won the World Series
can avoid an unclutch label. A team like the Mets which came nailbitingly close in ‘06, had one of the most epic collapses of all time in ’07, and played poorly again down the stretch in ’08 will not escape that the idea that they are chokers unless they can finally win. It’s not an outrageous suggestion.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Winning a World Series is a team effort.
You are ascribing a team effort to individual players.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
i think he's saying
that players get the label when they are associated with teams that are seen to fail in notable, spectacular fashion, fair or not.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
So how is calling out those who unfairly associate team efforts to individuals a "exaggerate every other fan who we say is dumber than us" type thing?
Save Jenrry Mejia!
i hope you're seriously asking
not just looking for a fight. Logically it seems possible to have both “unclutch” teams and players since baseball is both a team sport as you note and one that lends itself to individual evaluation because of the relatively discrete events that make up a game. Also, the matter of labels and evidence-based assessment seems to get muddled sometimes. I don’t know what ReyO was saying, he’d have to tell you. But if I had to guess I’d say it probably has something to do with the fact that you can take clutch quite seriously, not just use it to signal your superiority over the ignorant hordes of call-in show fans.See below.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
RINGZZZZZZ
Jeter has ‘em, the Mets don’t. Therefore he is Mr. November, and no Met will be until they win one. Rey-o’s not saying that’s fair, he’s saying that’s the common perception.
Lebron is less clutch than Kobe in most people’s minds because of the rings, not because he does worse in the playoffs or at the ends of close games.
I think that actually reinforces the point of the original article, which is that clutchiness is a silly criticism of Beltran and Wright (which would have gone away had they won a World Series).
So the quality of the team you play with
Is in direct correlation to the clutchiness you possess? Is that what you’re saying?
No, I’m saying players that have won the World Series
can avoid an unclutch label. A team like the Mets which came nailbitingly close in ‘06, had one of the most epic collapses of all time in ’07, and played poorly again down the stretch in ’08 will not escape that the idea that they are chokers unless they can finally win. It’s not an outrageous suggestion
You could have just said “yes” I consider the quality of the team you play with to be in direct correlation with ones “clutchness”.
i'm having a problem identifying the assumptions underneath this post/discussion
Like Rey-O, I read the post as ridiculing those who dare speak of the concept of “clutch” seriously by showing that some of the greatest players in history could be tagged with the unclutch label if selectively assessed. While not wanting to take away from the poster’s effort and creativity, I too have misgivings about the tendency around here to spend so much time mocking the “mangoes” or whatever.
My previous understanding was that clutch might exist, but that we don’t have the metrics to quantify/assess it at this point. Some have taken this to mean it’s time to get mocking and seen it as an opportunity to ridicule the idiot fans who put stock in the concept. But as you can see from birtelcon’s interesting post below, some respected sources have attempted to use the concept seriously, and got what, at least from my perspective (Ray Knight, was one my least favorite 80s Mets), some very counter-intuitive findings. Please enlighten me.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I took it as a satirical post about those who heap praise on some players but lament and cry about others.
And those people who call Wright and Beltran chockers, they don’t use any type of metric just their gut.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I'm just tickled that my post is open to so much interpretation
I feel like a post-modern artist. Are they gonna hang this in the Met?
It's biting and cutting-edge sarcasm.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 26, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
yes
in the “awesome fanpost on a met blog” section.
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Having just finished Moneyball, as was alluded to,
if certain players weren’t “clutch”- that is, fold under the pressure of those ‘intense’ innings- they wouldn’t be in the Major Leagues in any kind of substantial manner. MLB games are the biggest game, sure, but those Minor League high-stress situations? Just as stressy to the player, at the time. All those college high-stress situations? Just as stressy to the player, at the time. All those high school high-stress situations? Just as stressy to the player, at the time.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 26, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Great work
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 25, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions
If one actually wanted to be more serious, you could use the Clutch stat,
which is calculated similarly at baseball-reference and fangraphs. This stat uses Win Probability Added calculations to find the players who performed better in higher leverage situations as compared to their performance in lower leverage situations.
According to b-ref’s Play Index, the career leaders in Clutch (this covers only regular season performance and only goes back to 1950) are
1. Nellie Fox 13.1
2. Tony Taylor 10.5
3. Tony Gwynn 9.9 (superstar category)
4. Pete Rose 9.6 (superstar category)
5. Sandy Alomar, Sr. 8.0
Number 6 on this list is — wait for it, Mets fans — Bill Buckner.
The highest Clutch number (according to the Play Index) for a single season in Mets history is Ray Knight’s 1986 season (and that does not include the post-season, when Knight was the World Series MVP)
this is interesting. Thanks
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
What I think of
when I think of Pete Rose and Tony Gwynn is players who put the ball in play….a lot. I wonder if that somehow corresponds with their “clutchiness”. In high leverage situations, it probably helps to put the ball in play more often than it does to hit for power but less average.
Just spitballing, of course.
Id be careful with the clutch stat
Look at 2010 Clutch leaders. #9 on the list is none other than the living god Yuniesky Betancourt.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 25, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
right above
Nuno Bettencourt.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Great
But the next step here, if one believes in the stat as useful and predictive, is to bet on which players will be clutch or unclutch going forward.
Knight was quite clutch in 1986, but his clutch score was negative in each of the three prior seasons. Beltran and Wright have been up and down their whole careers, just like most players. Wright has been slightly unclutch, Beltran quite clutch. Neither should define their career values and no one should want Nellie Fox at the plate over Carlos Beltran in any spot.
by James Kannengieser on May 25, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i am interested in this idea
of prediction since as we know, ability tends to degrade over time, and this is model-able too. Whether prediction should be the goal is controversial across the social sciences. Can anyone fill me in on how established/reliable is our ability to isolate factors of aging regression and such? I know teams win-loss records are predictable. But for individual players is our knowledge more or less established in this area than say, defensive metrics.
Using WPA and leverage situations seems a pretty solid approach to me, so how do we know when we’re just looking at noise as it seems you are insinuating with Nellie Fox?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you look at year-to-year correlations to find out if it's noise.
Look at the top clutchy players in 2008, then try to predict that their average clutchiness will be above the league average. Then see if it’s true in 2009.
If it isn’t (or isn’t for most years) then you can say that for most clutchy players at least, it’s luck. There may be some players who are clutchy above average every year, but that’s what you’d expect given a large enough sample size.
I posted the Clutch stats above
believing that they are not at all predictive. My sense in looking at correlation studies with the Clutch stat is that it has essentially zero predictive value. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t useful in an “evaluative” rather than a “predictive” sense. If you want to gamble or play fantasy baseball or your are an actual baseball GM (or enjoy pretending to be one) then “predictive” stats are what you need. But if you are interested in baseball from an historical perspective, either in lieu of or in addition to these other ways of being a baseball fan, then stats which are not predictive, but nontheless tell us something of what actually happened (even if it was just “luck” or “noise” and not a repeatable skill) are still useful.
For example, it has always been a bit of a mystery to me why Bill Buckner, whose OPS/wOBA/WAR numbers are poor, managed to last in the majors for as long as he he did — he has just about the lowest WAR numbers of anyone who played as long as he did. But knowing from this Clutch stat that over his career he performed better in high leverage situations to a degree that few other players have ever seen, may shed some light on the mystery. Yes, I know that Buckner’s relatively high batting average in an era when many people were focused on that figure may also be a partial explanation, but I think that his high career Clutch number may also reflect something about how he was perceived in his time.
I gotcha
All of those clutch guys were contact hitters with very low strikeout rates. I’d bet the unclutch list features a lot of high strikeout sluggers.
by James Kannengieser on May 26, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely correct. Five lowest career Clutch numbers are:
Sammy Sosa, Frank Robinson, Jim Thome, Lance Parrish, Mike Schmidt.
Just 3 or 4 of the top 50 hitters
Unclutch assholes
Squeezed to Song and Bendtner and Song and Nasri oh lovely lovely lovely!
-Peter Drury, the one time his commentating has ever been acceptable.
by Aidan Gibson on May 28, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I object to the term "Choking Dog"
Here in Africa the standards of canine husbandry are different, and I have seen dogs eat plastic shopping bags that have meat or fish juice on them. They do not choke. You, sir, need to update your imagery.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
In honor of MTC, we should call them "choking cats".
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Hairball?
"You can spend minutes, hours, days weeks or even months overanalyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what would’ve, could’ve happened – or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the **** on."
-Tupac Amaru Shakur
by NetsMets4Life on May 25, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I make the same mistake with twinkie wrappers
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on May 25, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yes, rec'd
you choking sly dog.
"You can spend minutes, hours, days weeks or even months overanalyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what would’ve, could’ve happened – or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the **** on."
-Tupac Amaru Shakur
I see you missed one of the top 5 greatest players in the history of baseball
But that’s ok. If you called Ty Cobb a choking dog, he’d probably rise up out of his grave, pull off one of your arms, and proceed to beat you with it.
What, is he at a Canadian wedding?
"You can spend minutes, hours, days weeks or even months overanalyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what would’ve, could’ve happened – or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the **** on."
-Tupac Amaru Shakur
by NetsMets4Life on May 25, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not the tradition.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 26, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
"Except Dave Eckstein. Of course."
love it…and don’t forget Dave Roberts. (and the guy Dbacks’ hitter who beat Mariano Rivera…sorry forgot who it was, but I know he wasn’t a “superstar”)
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
he was a superstar
for one steroid fueled year
I LIKE IKE!
he beat the futhermucking
yankees. that is clutch in my book no matter what anyone says, or how cheap his hit might’ve been.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Have to admit I was rooting for the Yanks in that one
Although I had rooted against them in the previous 2 rounds. I guess I was being sentimental.
i didn't really like the arrogant dbacks
but watching rivera fail at the height of his powers is a fond memory.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on May 25, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i have the sterling call from that play on my ipod
its fantastic
metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?
jeez
can you upload that somewhere, or tell me where to get it? that’s priceless
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
how do i upload it?
i got it when the FAN had their 20 yr anniversary (maybe google it and see if they still have the files) and they had voting for 20 greatest sports moments of past 20 yrs. all calls were available for download. i got that and the call of sterling when the sox came back from 3-0 to beat the yanks. also got the matteau call in addition to endy, pratt, grand slam single, 2000 NLCS win, LJ 4 pt play, houston runner, rangers stanley cup
metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?
Oh man, you need to email Eric
and find out how to embed an audio file. Much like Ted Berg’s Cole Hamels picture collection, it would be really nice to have this call and the Boston one available to amuse ourselves with on bleak Yankee-related days.
you know what was awesome ?
the intro to Mike and the Mad Dog the next day…..
it started with Mad Dog playing Taps…..
LOL
One day, this team is going to kill me.
I was ambivalent about the D-Backs,
but watching the Yankees fail is always great. People just assumed I was rooting for the Yankees, being from NY and it being shortly after 9/11. They could not have been more wrong.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 25, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta say, at the time, I was rooting for the Diamondbacks,
but in retrospect, I do wish the Yankees had won it that year, for the poetic-justice value.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 26, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah they ALL were, Steve Finley...
etc
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on May 26, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I was reading some articles online last night
and came across an article written a few years ago about how researchers from Penn State (if I remember correctly) wanted to objectivly find out who was the worst fielder in baseball. They didn’t use stats but instead watched videotapes of every ball hit at every fielder to determine who cost their team the most runs. They determined that Jeter cost more runs than any other fielder in the MLB. The article was interesting but the comments were priceless. Many yankee fans pointed to Jeter’s Gold Gloves to refute the researchers findings, which I could kind of understand if you weren’t aware how diffacult it really is to evaluate a player’s defense. More than the GG argument, however, was the argument that Jeter is a good fielder because he has so many world series rings. What a team winning a championship has to do with one individual’s fielding was beyond me. This is used in the “clutch” argument all the time. A player is clutch because he has ringz. A player could hit .200/.250/.300 but if he has a ring (or even better multiple ringZ) than you can’t say anything bad about him. I’m aware that the whole concept of clutch, if it exists at all, is hard to quantify. I’m also aware that it is silly to, as in the case with Beltran, hold on at bat as the defining example of whether he is clutch. But I think it is even sillier to suggest that because a player was on a world series team he is exempt from any critism (because you know, he’s a “winner”) and is automatically clutch.
very interesting
could you provide the link for our curious minds?
Surely
There were a few articles online about the study. This link below was an article written about the post by a red sox fan that had some priceless comments from yankee fans
http://www.faniq.com/blog/Derek-Jeter-Is-The-Worst-Fielder-In-Baseball-And-Its-A-Fact-Blog-13557
Here’s another article about a different study, this one conducted by Bill James, that also identifies Jeter as baseball’s worst fielder.
If you put “worst fielder in baseball” in a search engine a number of articles referencing one of the two studies should come up.
Ooops
Forgot to link second article, here it is:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2008-11-04/derek-jeter-called-worst-fielder-baseball
I remember hearing about the first one.
The Post did an absolutely horrible story about it in which they openly derided the results, because the paper had been presented at a conference in Boston, so of course it had to be rigged.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 26, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Read that Post article last night
I found it online after reading the first one. Its funny because a lot of the reaction from both fans and yankee players, staff and NY media was along the lines “stats can line, computers can be wrong, its only when you watch Jeter everyday like we do can you accurately asess his fielding” Thing was the analysis on Jeter’s fielding wasn’t stat based and it had nothing to do with “computers” but was based on researchers watching every single play Jeter made (or didn’t make). I know this was how the Penn State one was done and I think the Bill James one was done like that as well. So all the “typical stat-geek nonsense twisting stats to fit their own opinion” esque comments were completely wrong.
Since when have morons been dissuaded by not having the facts?
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on May 26, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
these people you are talking about are yankee fans
which means they are idiots
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every baseball team
has their versions of “bayonnemetsfan”, who think advanced statistical anaylsis is for basebment dwelling nerds- “i don’t want to have to break out an ababcus to enjoy a baseball game” Clutchiness is the ultimate skill and Joe Morgan is God, Bill James is a heretic and Sabermetrics is witchcraft.
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