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Around SBN: Veterans Share Their Favorite Sports Memories

What's the Deal with Jason Bay?

(Photo by Mike Stobe/Getty Images)

When the Mets signed Jason Bay in the winter between the 2009 and 2010 seasons, a lot of noise was justifiably made about the number of years and dollars Omar Minaya committed to a power hitter on the wrong side of 30. The main concern was that Bay would be vastly overpaid during the fourth guaranteed year of his deal and even more so during his easily-attained-vesting-option fifth year of the deal. Nobody thought he'd be a complete disappointment at the beginning of the deal.

How bad has Bay been since putting on a Mets uniform? In 2010, his .336 wOBA over 401 plate appearances was poor by his standards, and so far in 2011, his .297 wOBA is poor by an average outfielder's standards. Let's have a look at what might be different for Bay since his arrival in Queens to see if there are any explanations for his miserable production.

One of the knocks on Bay when he left Boston was that he struck out a whole lot, but his strikeout rate with the Mets has been in line with his career norm. In fact, he struck out most frequently in 2009, the second-best year of his career judging by wOBA. His walk rate, too, looks very similar to his career mark.

Let's have a look at his batted ball data to see what's there:

Star-divide

Bay_batted_ball_medium

Although the 2011 numbers look stark, the season is still young. As a Met overall, Bay's hitting the ball fairly closely to his norms. If the line drive and fly ball drops and the corresponding rise in ground balls continue, that'll be a major issue. What jumps out is the major drop in the percentage of Bay's fly balls that are going over the fence, about one-third as many as before.

Here's what Bay has done on fly balls the past four years:

Bay_fly_balls_medium

Ouch. When Bay hit a ball in the air in the past, it usually produced very good results. In terms of quantity, he's had far fewer opportunities with the Mets, but he's only hit one home run on a pitch on the inner half of the strike zone. That's something he used to do regularly, as he homered frequently on high-and-inside and middle-to-low-inside pitches. If he's not hitting balls on the inner half out of the park, you can bet opposing pitchers won't be afraid to throw there.

***

Fly balls haven't been the only source of Bay's success in the past, though. The lack of home runs certainly plays into his dreadfully low ISO since joining the Mets, but why else might he be struggling to hit for extra bases? Well, swinging at pitches outside of the strike zone isn't going to help. Let's have a look:

Bay_oswing_medium

As you might expect, swinging at more pitches out of the zone has resulted in making more contact out of the zone. Obviously, it's harder to hit those pitches than the meatballs. And here's what's happened on those swings:

Bay_oswing_results_medium

That's a whole lot of nothing. Despite the fact that he's still drawn walks, Bay's done himself a disservice by swinging at so many of these pitches.


***

Over the course of his career, Jason Bay has feasted upon the fastball. He's seen it 57.4% of the time at the plate, and most of the time, he has clobbered the pitch.

Bay_wfb_medium

Well, most of the time except his down year in 2007 and his time with the Mets. The numbers above are Bay's Runs Above Average against the pitch according to Fangraphs, which is a counting stat so the 2011 figure is still a work in progress. If he stays on his current pace, which is unpredictable at this point, it'll look better than 2010 but nowhere near as good as past years.

So let's have a look at what Bay's done to fastballs:

Bay_fastball_results_medium

The data above only shows the fastballs on which Bay either swung and missed or put the ball in play. He looked at a whole bunch of balls and strikes, got hit by a few pitches, and fouled off a bunch of them, but what he's done in the instances shown above seems the most important.

In 2008-2009, Bay hit 45 home runs against the fastball, but he's only hit 4 in a Mets uniform. The swinging strikes don't look disproportional, and that's reflected in his aforementioned strikeout rate. The big difference here is that most of the fastballs he's made contact with have been outs. Very few of them have been hit for power.

***

On the upside, it's entirely possible for Bay to stop swinging at pitches outside the strike zone as much as he has been of late. Any improvement there should result in an overall improvement in his production.

On the downside, there's no telling whether his power outage on fly balls in general and against the fastball specifically will turn around.

All PitchF/X data is from Joe Lefkowitz's site. All other data is from Fangraphs. Data for 2011 includes games through May 27.

Comment 76 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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Um, CitiField?

And yes, as a sagacious former Met described, the Citi-angst will travel with Bay on the road.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 1:49 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I don't think it's that simple.

If he were hitting doubles off the left field wall all the time, I’d say it was. He used to hit the ball 400 feet or more to left and left-center, and that would get the job done in Citi Field.

by Chris McShane on May 31, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

He obviously still has power to right and right center, but he’s shown absolutely no pull power as a Met. He can’t make contact on pitches inside anymore, which is one of the things that makes me believe his shoulder might not be totally right.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on May 31, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I think this is getting at the heart of it

If you look at the data on what he’s done with pitches inside it’s stark how little power he is generating. Whether it’s his shoulder or just a slowing of his hands I don’t know, but either way that really strikes me as having a huge effect on his performance.

Columnist at Beyond the Box Score. Contributor at Amazin' Avenue.

by Bill Petti on May 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see the data above

regarding how far the ball is traveling, but I’ll take your word for it. Certainly, though, some number of flyballs that would have gone out of other parks have not left Shiti, and I’d imagine it’s screwed with his head and changed his approach.

Decreased bat speed would, of course, amplify the problem.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It will be telling

But, as Syler reminds us, he’s shown good power in poor power parks before. I’m thinking you’re right about Citi being but an aggravating circumstance for an already severe decline.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Its not helping, but it's not to blame, either

He’d be cracking homers on the road, then.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 31, 2011 2:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If you map his Citi hits to Fenway in 2010...

…he ends up with 11 more possible home runs, 5 of which were fly outs and 6 of which were doubles in Citi.

This year he has 2 fly outs that are possible home runs at Fenway.

What’s interesting, though, is that if you map his Citi performance to PNC Park there is no difference. In fact, one home run ends up on the warning track in PNC. So if he stayed in Boston his drop off may not have been as obvious, but that tells me something else has changed not just the stadium.

Columnist at Beyond the Box Score. Contributor at Amazin' Avenue.

by Bill Petti on May 31, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I am now convinced

but I will still take any opportunity to bitch about the outfield at Citi. Nice park overall, though.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Home-Away

2010 Bay Home SLG .459, away SLG .354

2011 Bay Home SLG .442, away SLG .234

#blameciti

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't care, don't care, don't care

Park F/X are bunk. If he changes his approach, it’s going to hurt at home and on the road.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

.234 slg. on the road?

Holy crap, let’s not even suit him up on the road.

by David G on May 31, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, imagine if you will

a hitter going from Fenway to Citi. Quite the shift, no?

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also hit for power at PNC Park though, and that isn't exactly a hitters park

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on May 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, true, all true.

looking like a bat speed issue.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do

I think it messes with the hitters mind. miss a couple of sure HR and you get frustrated

Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all

by Rickfansince76 on May 31, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

short answer
the wrong side of 30

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

he can still be strong

and just not as fast with the bat. He isn’t the most athletic guy, so that he had a sudden drop off in production is not unexpected. Before the steroid era, this type of thing happened and people were not surprised. Shawn Green lost a lot of power at age 30, and the rest of it by age 33.

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not a "sudden" drop off, it's a cliff dive in production

He hit 36 HR in 2009, and 6 as a Met last year. There’s no way that’s attributable to age alone.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on May 31, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

you said it yourself above

he cant pull the inside pitch. If its not a shoulder issue, its a ‘he has slowed down’ issue. Since he arrived, have you once seen him grab his shoulder or indicate its injured?

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but many players can hide an injury

and there were all sorts of red flags about his shoulder prior to his signing.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on May 31, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

The whole reason the Red Sox didn't re-sign him

Was because of his shoulder, and injury/damage questions.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 31, 2011 2:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

so you're saying #blameOMAR?

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on May 31, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

why not?

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on May 31, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

for some reason

i just remember it as the knee. and hearing stories his knee was ok. so which shoulder? his throwing shoulder has been strong

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seem to remember it being a knee issue they were worried about as well

Though I just reread some articles that were written about it and apparently the Red Sox were concerned with both his knee and shoulder.

by Balagast on May 31, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

cant remember all the details

and still have another life

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball reference similar batters

Trot Nixon went from 28 to 6 at age 30. Bob Horner went from 27 in ‘86 in MLB, to 31 in ’87 in NPB, to 3 in 60 MLB games in ’88 before retiring with a shoulder issue; I don’t doubt that it could be his shoulder, and it would be nice if he retired. Cecil Fielder went from 39 to 13 at 33. Kirk Gibson averaged 25 for 5 years then hit 9 at 32.

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on May 31, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Short answer
wrong side of the border

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

if you want to cry...

look at Matt Holliday’s numbers since the cardinals resigned him

by Mike Clemente on May 31, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh my God

I forgot all about the Holliday/Bay debate that off season.

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The money quote
"We are pursuing Matt Holiday. It seems to be easier to make a deal for Jason Bay."

Yes, he really said that.

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAR

Since beg 2010 – Bay at 1.7, Holliday at an even 10.

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sad

predictable.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on May 31, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, it wasn't too much of a dabate

90%: hday7
5%: Bay
5: Other

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 31, 2011 2:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

This.

I didn’t want Bay back then and was not all that excited when they signed him.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 31, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets be honest,

the only guy who wanted Bay on the Mets was Omar. I dont even think Bay wanted to leave Fenway but yet again the Players Ass decided the $$$$ is better for them rather than the players feelings.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on May 31, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

bingo

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on May 31, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't want either

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on May 31, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya everytime I see Holliday's stats I just cringe

So far this year Holiday has 2.4 WAR … our LF’s combined have -.6 WAR.

by Balagast on May 31, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

#blameboras

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

#blameboras

"Good hitter. Shitty team -- good hitter."

by Dandy Salderson on May 31, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Diving in...

Can you send Bay and the Mets hitting coach this link because it seems to me that Jason hasn’t changed a dang thing. His stance, his swing, his standing way too far away from the plate. Nothings changed. Choke up, hit left-handed – just do something different!!! Or see a shrink ‘cause he pressing – way too anxious. Fastballs down the middle are being fouled off. Watching video of him with the Sox and Pirates show him much more relaxed. Bouncing, knees are bent more, he’s closer to the plate, not diving into the pitches.

He just needs to concentrate on driving the ball into the gap first, then the home-runs will eventually come his way. But I just may be over-optimistic. $66 mil for ground-outs, singles, and walks.

Nice work btw. Thanks,

by kjboppster on May 31, 2011 2:22 PM EDT reply actions  

maybe he's just terrible

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on May 31, 2011 2:26 PM EDT reply actions  

A is A

Mr. McShane’s post is trying to unpack the suck a bit.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

FES

FESLENRASTER cut right thru the stats & summed it up completely. Bay is a cross between Kevin McReynolds & Bobby Bonilla. All 3 of them have actually hindered the Mets while playing for them due to the fact that they all made (make) too much money to bench in favor of a better bat. You can include George Foster on that list also. If money did not dictate his playing time, I’m sure you would see F-Mart, Duda, Evans, or possibly even Murphy out in left.

by MDMETSFAN on May 31, 2011 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

It's not just money.

It’s history. He has a track record, and gets plate appearances based on that.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

McReynolds and Bonilla

performed much better than Bay ever has as a Met.

by dontstopbelieving on May 31, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't McReynolds get a bunch of MVP voting in 1988?

It was suggested that he and Strawberry split the Mets vote, costing Darryl a deserved first ever Met MVP award.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I checked

Gibson — 13 first place votes
Strawberry — 11
McReynolds — 4

So, though the voting is “subjective,” it does tend to suggest that McReynolds had a decent year. Gibson and Strawberry’s respective performances were pretty close. Strawberry had more power. If you care about “grit,” they didn’t come much “grittier” than Gibson. If you care about delicious ribeye steaks, Strawberry beat out Gibson there. A strong case can be made for both. If you’re strictly basing it on WAR, it should have gone Gibson, Van Slyke, Strawberry. I don’t trust the defensive numbers as much, however.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last self-response

Looks like Straw actually was only sixth in WAR (5.9), by whatever agglomeration Baseball Reference uses, behind Gibson, Brett Butler, Will Clark, Hershiser, and Van Slyke.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

McReynolds

also went 21 for 21 in steals that year. He was much much better that Bay. Look at his numbers for ‘87 and ’88. Getting those numbers out of Bay would be a miracle at this point. People didn’t like McReynolds because he never showed enthusiasm or "smiled’. He got the Beltran treatment a little bit, imo.

by David G on May 31, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keith mentioned a few times during broadcast, that Bay (and Dubs) aren't standing straight after they swing.

That they were “bending over” the plate. That might have something to do with the aforementioned inability to pull the fastball.

In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA

by Michkin on May 31, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Jaime Cevallos can fix them in 5 minutes!

In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA

by Michkin on May 31, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like that guy's stuff. I bought his book out of curiousity.

I found I agreed with it and it seemed like a really good approach.

by TMS on Jun 6, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

not armchair psychology but observation of 75% of all Mets games past 1.5 yrs

..but Jason Bay looks, acts, and performs like a shadow of his former self. I remember the Winter 2009 (Omar’s so-we’re-gonna-fix-our-single-gaping-hole-roster-problem-with-one-of-these-two-slugging-free-agents) Holliday/Bay faux-debate…and agree with mistermet that going for Bay was the easy, obvious, cheap(er) move.

by neoncleon on May 31, 2011 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Eh

I’m sure it doesn’t help to be in a depressing environment, but a loss of bat speed will frustrate any player, and probably wouldn’t have much to do with being in a bad clubhouse.

by tmu on May 31, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

idk...

He looks great in the field and on the basepaths..In fact i’m suprised how good an all around player he is. The one thing was a given is what he struggles with now. Power point blank.

Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....

by The real Julio from Paterson on May 31, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe i'm missing something

but wouldn’t some breakdown of prehead injury/post be an interesting addition here?

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on May 31, 2011 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't think so.

He was basically this bad before the concussion. The only difference is his BA was about 20 points higher last year and he (sadly) hit for a touch more power a year ago. His BB and K rates are nearly identical. The extra 20 points of BA/OBP seems to be made up in his BABIP which also happen to be 20 points apart. I mean maybe you could say his power’s down further this year because of the head injury, but I think it’d be a stretch. It’s likely all part of a precipitous fall that began in 09/10 (don’t forget in 09, he got off to the hot start in April/May before disappearing for 2 months in the middle of the season).

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 31, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he's developed bad habits in tinkering with his swing over and over....

The poor results have shaken his confidence and I’ve seen him watch good early in the count hitable pitches only to fall behind and be susceptable to pitches that break away as he tries to protect the strike zone with 2 strikes. I swear whenever he looks at a great fastball to hit early in the count its almost guaranteed he’s gonna strike out on a breaking pitch away. The book is written on the new Jason Bay in BIG BOLD LETTERS….

Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....

by The real Julio from Paterson on May 31, 2011 5:39 PM EDT reply actions  

The name of this article sounds like the beginning of a Seinfeld bit...

Whats the deal with Jason Bay? Whats the deal with airplane food? Whats the deal with the long lines at the ATM?

Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....

by The real Julio from Paterson on May 31, 2011 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

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