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2012 Finances and Jose Reyes: An Analysis

Reyescollage_medium

As of Opening Day 2011, the Mets payroll is $142,797,166 dollars. On the payroll are four players who are no longer playing on the Mets, but are still being paid by the team because of contractual obligations for 2011- Oliver Perez ($12 million dollars), Luis Castillo ($6 million dollars), Gary Matthews Jr. ($1 million dollars), and Blaine Boyer ($725,000 dollars). Other players, such as Bobby Bonilla, and Bret Saberhagen are still owed money- $1.2 million dollars and $250,000 dollars, respectively- but are not counted in the actual payroll tally, since the money they're getting is from the "contingent liabilities" pot, and not the pot allocated to the team's payroll.

Star-divide

Looking forward, the Mets will be losing two big-time players to free agency, besides for, possibly, Jose Reyes. Carlos Beltran, and his $20 million dollar contract is the biggest and most glaring, in terms of money and potential baseball production. Fransisco Rodriguez needs to finish 55 games in order for his $17.5 million option doesn't vest. If it doesn't, the Mets pay him a $3.5 million dollar termination buyout, and he, too, becomes a free agent. Other, lesser names that will not be on the payroll for 2012 include Ryota Igarashi ($1.75 million dollars), Chris Capuano ($1.5 million dollars), Scott Hairston ($1.1 million dollars), Chris Young ($1.1 million dollars), Tim Byrdak ($900,000 dollars), Willie Harris ($800,000 dollars), and Jason Isringhausen ($400,000 dollars). In total, that amounts to $72,275,000 dollars.

Payroll1_medium

AUTHOR'S NOTE: K-Rod should be $11.5 million - $3.5 million, resulting in a net $8 million in total, leaving the end result $64,275,000

Money coming off the books is mitigated by raises that players who will be around in 2012 will be getting because of arbitration, or contractually obligated raises. Johan Santana will be getting a raise of $1.5 million dollars, raising his salary from $22.5 million dollars to $24 million dollars. David Wright will be getting a raise of $1 million dollars, raising his salary from $14.25 million dollars to $15.25 million dollars. R.A. Dickey will be getting a raise of $2 million dollars, raising his salary from $2.75 million dollars to $4.75 million dollars. The players who are going into arbitration are Ronny Paulino (Arb 3), Taylor Buchholz (Arb 4), Angel Pagan (Arb 4), Mike Pelfrey (Arb 2), and Bobby Parnell (Arb 1). It is almost a certainty that Mike Pelfrey, Angel Pagan, and Bobby Parnell both receive raises, and remain with the team. Ronny Paulino and Taylor Buchholz are likely to receive raises as well, but their future with the team remains not as certain. Given that neither, so far, has shown a reason why they shouldn't be on the 2012 Mets, I'm going to assume that they return next season.

Here are some rough estimations for arbitration salary increases (arbitrary arbitration increases, if you will):

Buchholz, $1 million dollars, up from $600,000

Pagan, $5.5 million, up from $3,500,000

Parnell, $1 million dollars, up from $400,000

Paulino, $3 million dollars, up from $1.35 million dollars

Pelfrey, $8 million dollars, up from $3,925,000

In total, this amounts to $13.4 million dollars.

Payroll2_medium

The $64,275,000 dollars that is coming off the books is mitigated by the money that players will be receiving in raises, for the 2012 season. So, that $13.4 million dollar figure must be subtracted from the total amount that is coming off the books via the departure of various free agents. So, in total, a net $50,875,000 dollars is coming off the books for the 2012 season.

Next, we must consider how much, if at all, the payroll is going to shrink for the 2012 season (and beyond). On the radio, on the TV, in the newspapers, and across the internet, we've heard all kinds of things. Some have said that the Mets will continue forward into 2012 fielding a team with a payroll roughly the same as the current payroll. Others have said that the Mets payroll will shrink so significantly that the team won't even be able to sign 2011 amateur player draftees overslot. In December 2010, Sandy Alderson stated that the payroll will almost certainly go down, to roughly $120 million dollars. That is, approximately, a 15% payroll decrease. After scouring the results of various web searches, I could not find any reliable 2012 payroll estimates, with citations, saying that Sandy was planning on fielding a team with a lower payroll. Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the payroll does go lower. Slimming things down to $100 million dollars is, approximately, a 33% payroll decrease, and is just around the bare minimum that the team can spend, because of existing payroll obligations.

If the 2012 Mets payroll ends up being a ‘robust' (as compared to numbers others are saying) $120 million dollars, the Mets have the financial flexibility to re-sign Jose Reyes very easily, and still have enough money left over to sign other available free agents. With the payroll dropping from $142,797,166 dollars to $120,000,000 dollars, $20 million dollars is deducted from the net total that is coming off the books for 2012. So, the Mets would be going into the off-season with a net  $30,875,000 to play around with. Jose Reyes, with that money, could easily be signed to a multi-year contract, similar to that of Carl Crawford (who everyone is expecting Reyes to sign a similar deal in 2012 as), and there would be money left over to address other issues via Free Agency.

If the 2012 Mets payroll ends up being a ‘leaner' $100 million dollars, the Mets still would have the financial flexibility to re-sign Jose Reyes. With the payroll dropping from $142,797,166 dollars to $100,000,000 dollars, $40 million dollars is deducted from the net total that is coming off the books for 2012. So, the Mets would be going into the off-season with a net  $10,875,000 to play around with. Jose Reyes, with that money, could be signed to a multi-year contract, similar to that of Carl Crawford (who everyone is expecting Reyes to sign a similar deal in 2012 as). There would be a limited amount of money left over to use in Free Agency, but high profile, expensive signings would be impossible, meaning there would be a lot of low-cost, low/moderate-reward signings, and Minor Leaguers.

Is it likely that the Mets payroll dips beneath $100 million dollars? It seems improbable, but not impossible. The Mets already have $66,830,000 dollars committed to the 2012 payroll. Factoring in the additional $8.4 million dollars from arbitration raises, the team will have $75,230,000 dollars committed to the 2012 season, with numerous holes that need to be filled. Assuming a glut of Minor Leaguers make the team, that's an estimated $80 million dollar payroll, with all of their $400,000 Major League minimum salaries. Is it realistic that the Mets field a team with a bunch of Minor Leaguers in the everyday line-up, bench, pitching rotation, and bullpen? No, no it is not. So, any figures below $100 million dollars that are thrown out as possible 2012 payroll numbers are unrealistic. Therefore, we can consider the $100 million dollar threshold the bare minimum payroll for 2012. And, as demonstrated above, with such a payroll, the Mets still have the financial ability to sign Jose Reyes to a market-value contract (let alone one with possible hometown discounts).

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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re-signing reyes

BDMFan; this was an intelligent, well-thought of contribution to AA. After reading this, I no longer will be suckered by the media’s articles regarding the sale of Reyes or any other young Mets stars. I would be more apt to see WRIGHT be moved unless he returns to his previous form (less ks, better defense, higher avg.)

by snurb55 on May 7, 2011 6:24 AM EDT reply actions  

correct me if i'm wrong

but why is K-Rod’s salary listed at 14 million? His hit to the 2011 payroll is 11.5 million. he’ll get his buyout next year, which means you subtract that 3.5 million dollar buyout to get 8 million. the 17.5 million dollars never comes into play, so it can’t be counted as money we are shaving from the 2011 payroll

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on May 7, 2011 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

In 2012, he'd make $17.5 million dollars, if his option vested.

If it doesn’t, he gets $3.5 million dollars nonetheless, so the team would have a net $14 million dollars coming off the payroll for 2012 if/when he becomes a Free Agent. His 2011 salary means nothing for 2012.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

if you are calculating money you are cutting from 2011

then it means everything. His 2011 salary is 11.5 million. With the 3.5 million dollar buyout, the Mets are saving 8 million on K-Rod going to next year. You can’t list 2012’s hypothetical option for K-Rod along with everyone else’s 2011 salary. the 17.5 million bucks never comes into play, so you can’t say it’s money that’s being cut from 2011. Instead of 72 million coming off, it’s 66 million.

The rest of the figures should be cut by 6 million all the way down, which would mean we probably couldn’t afford Reyes with a 100 million dollar payroll.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on May 7, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

BDMF has it right

The option is for $17.5 million, which automatically vests if K-Rod finishes 55 games. If the Mets choose to not exercise the option, they have to pay K-Rod $3.5 million.

__________________________________________________
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by Russ on May 7, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoops!

You are correct. It should be calculated as $11.5 million – $3.5 million for $8 million coming off.

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on May 7, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aha, I see what you mean.

Right, let me modify that.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I went back in and edited the math.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

So it pretty much means

that if Mets cut payroll to under 110,000,000, then Jose won’t be staying with us.

The numbers are right now, but the analysis still says that if the Mets cut payroll to one hundred million dollars, they’d have 10,000,000 to play around with, and that it would be enough to sign Jose (which it obviously wouldn’t be)

Looks like as Mets fans we have to hope that the Mets stay in the 110-120 million range keep our beloved shortstop.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on May 7, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not particularly, no.

Things get more cramped, but they stay the same, more or less. With a $100,000,000 payroll, the Mets have $10,875,000 to spare. Given that it’s re-signing a superstar to a market-value contract ($14 million for year 1, as per Carl Crawford’s contract), the team would need to find $4 million dollars (or there abouts). Given that it’s re-signing a multi-year All-Star, I think that $4 million dollars can be coughed up somewhere along the line. What a $100,000,000 payroll means, though, is that if Reyes is signed, there literally would be no money to use elsewhere, and Minor Leaguers would have to be brought up, with their $400,000 minimum contracts, to fill in all the voids left by departing players. Personally, though, I don’t mind that too much. Fernando Martinez or Captain Kirk in the MLB outfield- they have to make their bones sometime. Nick Evans on the bench instead of Scott Hairston. Dillon Gee instead of Chris Young.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

And, also, keep in mind, I was erring on the side of excess, rather than moderation, with those arbitration numbers.

Say Pagan gets only $4 million, instead of $5.5 million, because of his injury-prone history. That’s $1.5 million dollars right there. Say Mike Pelfrey really does stink the joint up for the rest of 2011, and as a result, makes only $5 million in 2012, instead of $7 million. That’s $2 million right there. Say we let Ronny Paulino go- he takes his $1.5 million dollar salary with him, and we use Mike Nickeas as our main back-up for $1 million dollars less. That’s $4.5 million dollars in guesstimated variance right there.

Well within the “margin of error”, I’d call it.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It also assumes that guys like Young and Pelfrey aren't traded.

Things which are well within the realm of possibility.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 7, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Belive buyouts apply to 2011

As the buyout would occur in that year. I read something to that affect somewhere, Don’t know how they structure their fiscal year, but I believe that is why in some circles the Mets claim their their labor costs could go as high as $150 this year,.

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by Iago on May 7, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most productive young shortstops in New York baseball history

Most b-refWAR by a New York shortstop through his age 28 season:
Travis Jackson (NY Giants 1922-1932) 38.5 WAR
Derek Jeter (NY Yankees 1995-2002) 34.7 WAR
Jose Reyes (NY Mets 2003-2011) 24.6 WAR and counting
Pee-Wee Reese (Brooklyn Dodgers 1940-42, 1946-47) 22.5 WAR
Roger Peckinpaugh (NY Yankees 1913-1919) 22.0 WAR

by birtelcom on May 7, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow, I didn't realize Pee Wee's WAR was up there, that high.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

All-Time Brooklyn Career WAR (b-ref version)

Pee Wee Reese 66.5
Jackie Robinson 63.2
Duke Snider 57.9
Zack Wheat 57.6
Dazzy Vance 55.9
Nap Rucker 41.7
Gil Hodges 40.7
Roy Campanella 36.2

by birtelcom on May 7, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, Reyes stays

Tradez Da Wilponz!!!

_______________________________________________
$100 to CARE per No-No and $1 per David Wright Homer.

by ScottfromPeekskill on May 7, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

i know its just an estimate

but is pelf worth, possibly,7mil? if the mets traded him , no doubt the extra 7 mill would help to resign reyes. of course not sure who’d take pelf’s place but i’d rather deal pelf if it means we have a much better shot at reyes .

by eric10 on May 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

How much would we get back in a trade for him at the break?

I would take a Kit-Kat and a bottle of Coke. If they offer a Coke Zero then the deal is off! Coke Zero, a Kit-Kat and a Twix and maybe we get it done.

No way do I take a vitamin water!

_______________________________________________
$100 to CARE per No-No and $1 per David Wright Homer.

by ScottfromPeekskill on May 7, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he worth that? Yes

Over the last three years, he’s been worth 3.0, 1.6, and 2.9 fWAR. The way his updated ZiPS projection has him going, he’ll end the season with 188 IP, a 4.67 ERA/4.01 FIP, with a 5.34 K/9 rate and a 3.24 BB/9 rate. That compares very much to his 2009 season (1.6 WAR), where he had a 5.03 ERA/4.39 FIP in 184.1 innings, with a 5.22 K/9 rate and a 3.22 BB/9 rate. So, let’s say he ends the 2011 season with a 1.6 WAR again. That’d give him a record over the last four years of having 3.0, 1.6, 2.9, and 1.6 fWARs. $7 million dollars is justifiable with that kind of record, and is just about market value for a 1.6 fWAR.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm looking at fangraphs and see Jose's WAR for 2008 through 2010 averaging 3.2 WAR,

and he’s already at 1.7 WAR for 2011 with 80% of the season still to play. Fangraphs shows Jose’s WAR over 2008-2010 as generating about $14M a year in salary value. And,again, he’s already at $8M for this season through just one-fifth of the season. I’m not sure where your numbers are coming from. And in any event, to value Jose as if his 2006 and 2007 seasons have no evidentiary value regarding his future potential performance is to undervalue him.

by birtelcom on May 7, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

If, in addition to everything he did at shortstop, Reyes had a career 4.40 ERA in 718.2 innings,

that’d make him even more impressive.

But, no, I was talking about Pelfrey. Eric asked if Pelfrey was worth the $7 million dollars I estimated he’d make in arbitration for 2012, which I think he most certainly is.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 7, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brilliant Piece

Jose is a by all means necessary signing..especially if the ownership get a cash infusion. If they don’t resign a perennial all star at a premium position, the fanbase will feel even more disenfranchised. PAY THE MAN!

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by Hoyadestroya85 on May 7, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I vote against.

I’d want it to be x money y years, otherwise, he’d be signing a thirteen+ year contract.

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by Dan Lewis on May 8, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

A thirteen dollar/thirteen year contract probably would work to our benefit, especially in those later years

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 8, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great rundown, BDMF

The Dodgers and Rangers have been in even worse financial straits, and neither team had to trim payroll as much as people are suggesting the Mets are going to. I really can’t see the payroll going much below $120 million, although that is purely a guess on my part. If Jose is no re-signed, it will be because Sandy doesn’t want to shell out too many years, not because they can’t afford it.

by dcmetsfan on May 7, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I would love to see Reyes and Wright stay

I just have a funny feeling (based on nothing) that Sandy will make a ton of trades this Summer to shape the team in to his own. I’m gonna try hard to back Sandy no matter what he does because I trust his judgment, but it would suck to see them go.

by Guy Allen Davis on May 7, 2011 5:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Sandy will not pay

more than he thinks Jose is worth—-in money or years. What will Jose want?

by jdon on May 7, 2011 6:24 PM EDT reply actions  

He's making $11M now

I think since he has shown the willingness to take a home discount before, anywhere between $15-20M per (on average) should get it done. It’s the years that are the tricky part; could be anywhere from 4 – 7 years, though I think 6 is more likely.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 7, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think 6 years 90 mil gets it done

That is more than the top paid SS in the game makes in 2011 numbers (Derek Jeter) and by 2017 would be a significant home team discount because by then Jeter will be making 30 mil/year.

by bones_boy on May 8, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought he already had one..

Am I making that up?

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 7, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He just pitched his second NH today

NH = “No Hitter” /= “New Hampshire”

"..."

by Thaddeus Ballpheasant on May 7, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

to further elaborate

I’ve done some research and cannot find any instance of Verlander throwing a New Hampshire.

"..."

by Thaddeus Ballpheasant on May 7, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pitch free or die?

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by Steve Schreiber on May 7, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great write up, but I see it....

…as evidence that Sandy can get a lot more for Reyes in a trade than has been rumored, since the team can in fact afford to resign him. Which isn’t to say I want him traded, but if a good deal is out there, I can understand making the move to rebuild the farm system.

In what possible scenario can you envision the 2012 Mets being better than the currently 14-18 2011 Mets? I can’t come up with one. Beltran will surely be gone and if Reyes isn’t, there won’t be enough money available to replace Beltran (and if Reyes is gone, there won’t be enough money to replace both of them). Even if Santana somehow offsets the losses with an amazing return to form, we’re what, a .500 team? We either hope Reyes is still just as good in a couple of years when the outfield and pitching staff are rebuilt, or we move him to get some big pieces for that rebuilding task. What we don’t have to do is treat him as a salary dump from a troubled franchise, despite what the MSM will have us believe.

by JJJ on May 7, 2011 9:04 PM EDT reply actions  

In what possible scenario can you envision the 2012 Mets being better than the currently 14-18 2011 Mets? I

2011 is still young but for next year… The return of a healthy Johan Santana. A healthy Jason Bay to start the year. Better performances by David Wright and Big Pelf.
Let’s say that is good for 4 more wins and they are 18-14. Just remember the season is young.

So Let It Be Written, So Let it Be Done.

by GreenBeer on May 7, 2011 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

But trading him doesn't get this team any closer to being contention in 2012 either.

We have 4+ WAR at 3B and SS and potentially 4+ WAR at 1B (Davis) and CF (Pagan) and Niese and Dickey with a hopefully resurgent Santana.
We have OF prospects on the way (Some who will be ready; Duda, Nieuwenhuis, and some who are farther away; Puello, Vaughn, and Cecilliani), some arms (Harvey, Mejia, Gee, Familia, Cohoon), a nice 2B in the wings (Havens), and a potentially elite bat wherever on the diamond he settles (Flores). With that, good drafting from one of the best collections of front office talent in the league, a re-commitment to the International FA market, and some deft maneuvers in the FA and trade market, this org. shouldn’t be 5 years away from contention, but 2 or 3.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 7, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. No closer in 2012

But closer in 2013 if some prospects come back for him. Maybe. They obviously take a huge step back in 2012 if they lose Reyes. I’m not suggesting anything less. But if it makes an otherwise lackluster minor league system better, it might be worth it, since I don’t see how we’re winning with the 2012 team. Counting Duda or Gee as prospects is pushing it. Expecting a contribution in 2012 from ANY of the players you suggest, except Nieuwenhuis (who only has to fill the shoes of Beltran (!!)) is probably wishful thinking. So maybe moving Reyes and making us piss-poor in 2012 (instead of just ‘meh’) is the way to go. That’s what the front office needs decide. What they don’t need to decide is whether Reyes has to be traded because the team cannot afford him, as BDF has illustrated.

by JJJ on May 7, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

"this org. shouldn’t be 5 years away from contention, but 2 or 3."

We’re did I say that all those guys would be contributers in 2012? And since when aren’t Duda and Gee legit pieces? Gee is likely already at least a league average #5 and Duda has a nice ceiling at the plate.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 7, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

You didn't...

But if it’s 2013 you’re aiming for, Reyes will be 30 that season.Still in his prime, but heading towards the tail end. It could be worth trading him now if 2013 (or later) is when this team is going to be adding some substantial talent from the minors to the majors.

As for Duda and Gee, I’d say since forever. They’re both 25 already and not much in the way of pieces for the future. An average #5 starter is easy to come by. We have like six of them on our team ;) (that’s the problem). And Duda hardly projects to anything more than a 4th outfielder with limited range. In other words, neither is a big piece of the future and every organization has players like these.

Trading Reyes would be about getting back an elite prospect, something our system is sorely lacking. He would have to be better than what we could get if Reyes walked at the end of the year, and we’d be removing a very good player from an already below average team.

by JJJ on May 8, 2011 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's correct to say that 30 is heading towards

the tail end of his prime. If you were saying he was 32-33 years old, okay maybe. But 30? That’s still a great age for a baseball player. Think about it this way…we signed Carlos Beltran when he was 27. He gave us 4 healthy seasons before succumbing to injuries in 2009 and 2010. Once Jose signs a deal in the offseason, he’ll be 28. If he could give us 4 full seasons, he’ll be 32.

Not to say that these guys will follow a similar career trajectory, but I’d gamble on Reyes staying healthy. He was incredibly durable from 2005-2008.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 8, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

That sounds great

I’m not suggesting we can’t or won’t. Sometimes rebuilding teams also trade their players who are good now, to help restock their farm for tomorrow, which subsidizes their good drafting and the international FA market. Particularly when they have no shot in hell of winning for the next couple of years.

by JJJ on May 8, 2011 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

But that's typically with older players.

Not players who are just reaching the prototypical baseball prime like Reyes (and Wright for that matter). If Jose was 32 years old…maybe even if he was 30, then fine. Perhaps it’s a gamble that he’ll be productive. But he’ll be 28 Opening Day 2012. That’s still so young in baseball terms.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 8, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Step 1: Rec

Step 2: Unrec
Step 3: Rec

Check, check, and check

by Shevshevy on May 7, 2011 11:35 PM EDT reply actions  

There's a lot of wishcasting in your post, BDMF.

In your last paragraph you assert that because a thing would be unpleasant, it therefore won’t happen. It doesn’t make for a credible close. By the way, I don’t think any really agrees with:

“Jose Reyes, with that money, could easily be signed to a multi-year contract, similar to that of Carl Crawford (who everyone is expecting Reyes to sign a similar deal in 2012 as),”

Reyes isn’t the player Crawford is, by any objective measurement. If we were coming off the 2008 season you’d have a case for Reyes getting a 7/140 deal, but not now.

by Brian Singer on May 8, 2011 12:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Not unplesent. Unrealistic.

Unrealistic, meaning it won’t happen.

Reyes is on pace to post his highest WAR yet. His 1.7 WAR is 7th highest in the entire MLB, and two of those guys in front of him (Howie Kenrick and Lance Berkman) aren’t going to sustain the level of play they are currently at (and, it’s questionable as to whether or not Colby Rasmus, 6th on the list, will be able to, either). Two seasons sidetracked by quirky injuries do not a career make. He sustained similar, quirky injuries in 2003 and 2004, and then went on to be the Jose Reyes who we set the Jose Reyes bar to.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 8, 2011 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

You haven't heard Crawford's contract thrown around as a comp for Reyes' extension/new contract?

It’s illogical, but people have been doing it. And not that BDMF is proposing that it will be similar, he’s just using the comparison that’s been thrown around and showing how even that huge contract could still be affordable. I worst case scenario if you will.

Save Jenrry Mejia!

by Ogre39666 on May 8, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

You might want to brush up on your "objective measurements"

Reyes is 10 months younger than Crawford relative to his pending free agency.

Reyes is on pace to a 2011 season that is better than Crawford’s 2010 season. In 154 games, Crawford posted 6.8 fWAR last year. Reyes is on pace to post 8.2 fWAR at a 154 game pace this year.

Younger and better. What part about that do you not understand?

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on May 9, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Russ...you also forgot the part where

you say Reyes is a Shortstop and Crawford is a Left Fielder. That kills the entire arugment…..

….oh wait. No it doesn’t! That only aids it. Being an excellent all around ballplayer at SS is worth much more than being an excellent all around ballplayer in LF, since it’s easier to find a good bat in LF.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 9, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

New minority owner(s)

One aspect in all of this may be the situation of the new minority owner(s) supposedly coming in soon.

There´s at least a pretty significant chance that the new part-time ownership group – whoever it ends up being – would like to turn this into a more profitable organization on a shorter term basis than tearing the whole thing down and building for 2015 while enduring seasons of 1.5 mio or less tickets sold and payrolls at or below the 100 mio $ level which still may not guarantee a profitable revenue stream. Especially going forward, the longer a thorough rebuild may take.

Also keep in mind that this team has sort of been rebuilding for at least 2+ years now. Not a single prospect of significance has been traded during that time and over the past two off-seasons, OF Jason Bay was the only free agent of significance signed by this former large market franchise. It´s highly likely that the Mets won´t trade any key prospect for the 3rd straight season in 2011. Whether they sign any external free agent of significance next winter remains to be seen.

What I do believe is that Jose Reyes will be a big key for the direction of this organization over the next 5 years – both on the field and off the field in terms of how it is viewed.
On the field, he´s among the top SS in Baseball and nearly impossible to replace. Sure, if someone is stupid enough to offer two Grade A prospects for Reyes, then it may make sense to trade him for the “greater good”. However, looking at the Cliff Lee or CC Sabathia packages from recent years, the “market” rate was one top 50 overall prospect, one more top 100 overall prospect and a couple of interesting pieces.
That certainly wouldn´t be worth parting with Reyes, losing this special talent on the field – in all likelihood longterm – and suffering from the extreme backlash in the media and the likely loss of big chunks of the already thinned out fan & especially customer base for the foreseeable future, i.e. at least until a winning team is back on the field.

I do hope that the financial situation is stabilized by adding potent co-owners who´ll also have the option to buy a larger share in case the Wilpons run into further financial issues in the Picard case.
The 2012 payroll certainly should be in the 120 to 125 mio $ range, assuming the K-Rod option vests. That should be good enough to keep Reyes and field a competitive team in 2012. And still save 20 mio $ or so in costs – pretty much the salaries of Castillo & Perez & Matthews jr. while the increases to Reyes, Rodriguez and others are made up for by saving on Beltran.

And beyond that, I´d like to witness the return of making trades next winter. The last trade of significance I can remember is the JJ Putz deal in late 2008. Since then it´s been minor moves around the margins of this franchise with minimal to no impact.
With the minor league talent level being on its way up again (at least below the AA and AAA levels right now), options for trades will open up again.

by Doob on May 8, 2011 2:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Well

It might have been smarter to look at the medical stuff first – but in general (assuming the Mets had done their due diligence on Putz) there wasn´t anything wrong with the trade at the time.

What I´m saying is that the re-tooling / building over the past 2 1/2 years should help bring the depth up to a level where trades should eventually be a vital part of team building again.
Whether it´s prospects for veterans or veterans for veterans or prospects for prospects.

by Doob on May 8, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Mets didn't give Putz a physical. That was the problem. There was no due dilligence.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 8, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree about the minority partner wanting to tear things up

The projections, the guesstimates, they show this team, as it is constructed right now, as about an 80 win team. Not good enough to win anything, but not exactly the Pirates, either (poor Pirates). In theory, a quick infusion with a small-to-moderate amount of money could result in a much larger and quicker net gain than scaling back the money. When the minority share is sold by the end of the year, and finances are in order with the Wilpons and our new minority ownership group, they might vote to leave payroll the way it is (at the roughly $140 million dollar point), utilizing their own funds to invest the $20-$40 million difference between where the Wilpons might set it themselves for 2012. With all of the money coming off the books as things are, keeping the payroll at $140 million would be huge. A very solid pitcher, such as CJ Wilson, for example, could be attained via FA. One of the biggest weaknesses of the team as it’s constructed right now, a 80 win team or so, is starting pitching. Add a guy like that, maybe another mild-to-moderate move elsewhere, and suddenly the team for 2012 might be looking more like an 85 win team, something a lot closer to postseason play.

All theorizing, and having on rosy glasses, but…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 8, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you misread that section...reread this quote:
There´s at least a pretty significant chance that the new part-time ownership group – whoever it ends up being – would like to turn this into a more profitable organization on a shorter term basis than tearing the whole thing down

It’s written a little funny but basically, he’s saying that it’d make more sense for a minority owner to keep things as is, since he’d likely be looking to make some money back after shelling out ~200 million bucks. By tearing the team down, you basically alienate the fans and dry up most of the process, putting the new owner into an even bigger early hole.

That’s another of this ownership thing. I could see the new minority owner, along with the Wilpons, wanting to convince the fans that “we aren’t going to break the team apart due to money…we are willing to pay people” and they could use that as a motivation to keep Reyes. Don’t forget that letting Reyes go not only hurts the team, but it also completely busts the ownership’s credibility just a couple of months into the game. Unless there was some stable of can’t miss prospects in the minors that were ready to come up and gel into a winning team in two years time (hint hint…there isn’t), that loss of credibility will drive away the fans and they likely won’t come back for years (when there’s a winner).

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 8, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

In general cutting costs in half isn´t a smart idea for any business. Unless there´s a very good alternative idea in place.
And mainly regarding Jose Reyes, the alternative from within is Ruben Tejada – who probably can be okay. But that´d mean the Mets feature players that are merely “okay” or less at SS, C, 2b, in RF if Beltran leaves and in CF if Pagan doesn´t return to 1st half 2010 form.

Re-signing Reyes could actually give a future part time owner a lot of credibility and a positive perception in terms of “Mets are back” (at least financially).

by Doob on May 9, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I read that the opposite and took it in the wrong direction.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 9, 2011 2:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think a big reason why they haven't made trades

is just that so many of their “assets” have taken big hits to their value over the past couple of seasons. I mean who do they have to trade? It’s not like they have a 2005 Mike Jacobs, for example, who has a high value even though he’s obviously playing over his head. They have a lot of players who are either struggling with injuries, struggling on the field or overpaid (Jason Bay being all three of those).

It did seem, however, that Omar Minaya became gunshy. He had that outstanding offseason before 2006 where he basically wheeled and dealed the team to a division title but after that offseason when he threw away Heath Bell, Matt Lindstrom, Henry Owens, Brian Bannister and Royce Ring for nothing, he seemed to stop trading for the most part. Unfortunately the Putz deal was just another show of awful form in GM’ing. Not only did he give up like 8 players from his organization, but he didn’t even give Putz a physical. Just awful.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on May 8, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

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