Jose Reyes and the Piazza Precedent
A Mets superstar has a monster year just before becoming a free agent. He refuses to negotiate a new contract midseason. The sports scribes say he is, in all likelihood, a goner and that this will surely doom the franchise.
Jose Reyes? No, Mike Piazza in 1998.
While there are differences in the two players' situations--not to mention the financial state of the team--Piazza's case is instructive, if for no other reason than as a bromide to those panicking (or who would like to make you panic) about how Reyes not wanting to discuss a contract means he's headed for the hills.
Early in 1998, with free agency looming for Piazza, the Dodgers attempted to negotiate a contract extension with the catcher. However, the Dodgers ownership situation was in flux; the O'Malley family was in the midst of trying to sell the team to Fox, and Rupert Murdoch was in no mood to accommodate Piazza's self-imposed deadline of February 15 for a new contract.
As spring training began, former Dodger Brett Butler was interviewed by the Los Angeles Times' Bill Plaschke and called Piazza "a moody, self-centered '90s player" more concerned about his stats than winning. Piazza was left feeling the feature was a calculated hit piece. From that point on, his days in LA were numbered. The Dodgers reportedly offered him a seven-year deal that would have made him the highest paid player in baseball, but he rejected it and cut off negotiations with the team in April. By May, he was shipped to the Marlins for Garry Sheffield. The Mets--needing both a catcher and a slugger, thanks to Todd Hundley's elbow woes--leaped in and acquired him from cash-strapped Florida on May 22 for Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall, and Geoff Goetz.
Piazza's early returns in Flushing were not great--not awful by any stretch, but not the spectacular numbers he'd put up on the West Coast. Boos regularly greeted his at bats when he failed to do anything other than homer. Thanks to the Butler/Plaschke article, he carried with him a diva reputation, someone who was not a team player, not a leader. Someone who wilted under the bright lights of the big city.
As early as July 2, the Daily News' Bill Madden wrote that the Mets "have to be prepared to let Mike Piazza walk if some other team is dumb enough to give him the seven-year, $85 million contract he turned down from the Dodgers." But that figure would be getting him cheap, as the most frequently cited figure said Piazza was looking for a seven-year, $100 million contract.
On August 3, Jack Curry in the Times wrote a lengthy piece ("Mets Cautiously Surveying Life Without Piazza") in which he described Piazza showing up for batting practice at Shea with "the worn look of a man who had to mow lawns for the next eight hours."
Get a close look at Piazza wearing those black Mets jerseys because there are increasing indications that the marriage between Piazza and the club will end after this season. Piazza is intent on becoming a free agent and pursuing a $100 million contract, and Phillips has expressed his doubt about having Piazza back in black. ''We have options behind the plate,'' Phillips said. ''Whether we're able to work out Mike's deal or not, we have options.''
A few days after Curry's piece appeared, a report "widely circulated on the internet" (in the words of the Daily News) said Piazza had already decided he would not return to the Mets. Tiring of all the speculation, Piazza held a closed-door meeting with GM Steve Philliips, then announced he would not discuss a contract with the Mets midseason.
Almost immediately, Piazza--and the Mets--went on a tear, catapulting themselves back into the wild card race. They went 20-12 in August, and 12-7 through the first 19 games in September. Piazza led the way, batting .351 in the second half of the season and an astounding .378 in September. Unfortunately, the Mets missed out on the playoffs by losing their last five games of the regular season, when even one win would have ensured a three-way tie for the wild card with the Cubs and Giants.
The press pounced on the Mets--not just for their collapse, but to insist they needed resign a player many of them figured didn't want to be there in the first place. The future of the team depending on bringing back both Piazza and Al Leiter, another big-time free agent who joined the team that year. "Losing either of them would serve as an enormous public relations blow at a time when the club can ill-afford negative publicity," wrote Thomas Hill in the Daily News.
Negotiations between the Mets and Leiter progressed rather quickly; a New Jersey native who grew up a Mets fan, Leiter needed little wooing to stay in Flushing. The return of Leiter played a role in Piazza's decision, as did something he discovered something when he returned to his home in California to begin a long off season: He missed New York, and all its energy and tumult.
Not long after the World Series ended, Piazza signed a seven-year, $91 million contract with the Mets. "I didn't want to go out and start again," he said at the press conference announcing the deal. "I knew I had unfinished business."
As I said, there are some obvious differences between the two players' circumstances. Reyes is a home grown player, Piazza was an import. The Mets had a much lower payroll in 1998 than they do now, and were (presumably) in better financial shape. But, much like Piazza, Reyes made his intention not to sign a contract midseason known early on (January, actually). It didn't keep Piazza from returning to Queens, and it shouldn't necessarily keep Reyes from doing so, either.
Another difference between the two that bodes well for the Mets: Piazza had only half a season to warm up to New York, and was booed ferociously during his first few weeks there. Reyes is so much a New Yorker by this point that he and his family spend most of their winters on Long Island. If you have tons of money at your disposal and come from a tropical climate and still choose to stay in New York in January, you probably like it here.
Does any of this mean Reyes is coming back? No, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily leaving, either. But if you'd prefer to panic, you have to ignore history, and the Piazza precedent.
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I prefer to panic.
Actually, I think Reyes will be back for one simple reason — Einhorn. Einhorn is investing $200 million in the team. He clearly is a fan. Don’t you think Reyes’ situation was discussed? Of course it was. I would bet it was for that reason that Sandy approached Greenberg now, because they knew they had the budget to make a reasonable offer. I think Reyes likes the Mets and I think he will choose to stay. Also, he will get Carl Crawford money because, this year at least with him, everything is right.
i'd like to think that
but is it in Einhorn’s financial interest for this team to be good? Hopefully the guy wants to endear himself to the fan base no matter what.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 22, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Just because Piazza did it,
it doesn’t mean anyone else will.
I do agree that Einhorn will have a big role, as stated above.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
of course not
just saying, if you read the linked articles, you see the coverage of both players is eerily similar
by Matthew Callan on Jun 22, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the situations are far too different to warrant a comparison
They are players in their contract year who said they didn’t want to negotiate in season — and that’s pretty much where the similarities end.
The Mets in 2011 have serious financial problems and are going to cut payroll. The Mets in 1998 didn’t have any problems like that (that I know of) and were spurred on by owner Nelson Doubleday who wanted Piazza despite the objections of the Wilpons.
The Mets ended up offering Piazza one of the highest contracts in baseball history at the time, which was close to what his demands were. The Mets in 2011 have already expressed a lack of interest in going anywhere near Jose’s demands. Frankly, the only chance the Mets have to sign Jose is if he decides he wants to give us a monster hometown discount.
The Mets traded for Piazza in 1998, giving away big prospects, indicating that he’s a guy they would probably like to keep. Conversely, the Mets are currently deciding whether or not to trade away Jose Reyes.
The Mets in 1998 were a team on the rise, that seemed to be one great player away from the post season (and they were). The Mets in 2011 are in a quazi-rebuilding state, and are not a Jose Reyes away from being competetive. Much to the contrary, Jose has been with the team for the past 8 years. It makes a big difference if ownership and the GM are convinced that “Well, if we got this one guy to round out our roster, we’ll be in good shape”, as opposed to “We have to resign our star shortstop to a monster deal, and then we need to find a couple of pitchers, some hitting, and hope that our young players become good.”
I wouldn’t read too much into Reyes not negotiating in season, one way or the other.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Wait what?
The Mets in 2011 have already expressed a lack of interest in going anywhere near Jose’s demands.
Enlighten me, sir. When did Sandy Alderson say they’re not going anywhere near Jose’s demands? And sorry but I’m not taking Fred Wilpon’s single overplayed quote during a frustrating loss as irrefutable proof that the Mets won’t pay Reyes.
The Mets in 2011 are in a quazi-rebuilding state, and are not a Jose Reyes away from being competetive.
This makes no sense. The only way they could be a “Jose Reyes away” from winning is if there were two identical Jose Reyes’ and they were going to sign the second Jose Reyes to a big deal to accompany the first Jose Reyes. Yes, we understand that re-signing Jose is not going to make this team magically win 100 games. But we also understand that they need other help to go along with him. If they let go of Jose Reyes, they are even further from competing because then you don’t have the best shortstop in the game (or even the 3rd best). You have Ruben Tejada, who frankly sucks. And then you still have to bring in more players to hopefully get back to the level you were at with Reyes.
With Jose Reyes in the fold, they are much much much closer to competing. That’s just a fact. You don’t let assets walk away if you are trying to compete. You bring in more assets to go along with what you’ve already got.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
Follow me on Twitter: @_mistermet
by Steve Schreiber on Jun 22, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jose himself has been reported as saying he'd like to be at 100 million+.
And given the season he’s having, he might go for well over that, into the stratosphere of Crawford money.
Conversely, the Mets were reported as hoping to sign Reyes to a 3 year 50 million dollar contract. That’s a massive gap, and again, doesn’t account for their financial problem and comments of their owner.
This makes no sense. The only way they could be a "Jose Reyes away" from winning is if there were two identical Jose Reyes’ and they were going to sign the second Jose Reyes to a big deal to accompany the first Jose Reyes.
Don’t be so literal. When I say they are not a Jose Reyes away, I mean they are not a superstar away. Point is, the Mets right now have Reyes and are not competitive. Resigning him will not make them competitive, nor will bringing in one more star. The Mets have problems all over the place.
Regardless, I was saying the Piazza precedent was different because the team felt they were that one player away from being competitive, and that made it more sensible to give the contract to him. On the other hand, right now the Mets are not one player away from being competitive, and a monster contract to Reyes wouldn’t seem as prudent. Like it or not, the Mets are in a rebuilding phase. Typically that phase means letting go of your superstars for draft picks and trying to build from within. Are they better with Reyes? Of course. But there’s zero comparison to the state of the Mets team when they signed Piazza, and today when they have the chance to resign Reyes.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
not resigning jose makes them less competitive than they currently are
they do have lots of problems, and letting reyes walk compounds those problems by adding the need for a quality short stop along with all of the other issues.
No shit
but the Mets are rebuilding, so you gotta suck it up. I know it’s hard for New York fans to understand, but teams go through these kinds of decisions every single season. Big name players are traded or let go all the time because the team is either rebuilding or can’t afford them. Like it or not, the Mets are in that boat. It’d be nice if they keep Jose, but it’s far more of a long shot than people are willing to admit.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
He'll be a Phillie nExt Year...
Yikes…..
Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....
by The real Julio from Paterson on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Smart teams in that situation recognize...
that the most relevant question to answer is whether the player will still be in his prime (or at least still good) over the life of any proposed deal. (And whether such a deal will get the team through to the point of being competitive again.)
The Mets are rebuilding, but you have to build around something. The Mets have a quality core in Reyes, Wright, and now Davis. It’s not murderer’s row, but it ain’t bad, Jason Bay notwithstanding. The Mets don’t necessarily need more stars. They need less suck from the auxiliary players. Signing Reyes to a market deal doesn’t preclude the team from building around an existing core.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I'm sure Tampa Bay recognized they would be better with Carl Crawford
But they still didn’t keep him. Again, it really seems like Mets fans have trouble understanding that their team might not be able to afford someone. We’re not the Yankees. I know it burns more because Jose is a homegrown guy, but it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team with money problems to throw 100+ million to keep one player on their roster, regardless of how good he is.
Not sure how to respond to your second point. A core of Wright, Reyes, and Ike might be nice. But the core of Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Delgado, and Santana was vastly better and still couldn’t win. The Mets need more stars and more auxiliary players. If we had an unlimited budget, this wouldn’t be an issue and we could resign Jose and wait for players to develop around him. But unfortunately, we don’t.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
You realize we play in the NY market?
The Tampa Bay comparison is nonsensical. We have the capability for a $110-$120 million payroll easily. Tampa’s is 40 million.
They literally couldn’t afford to keep Crawford. We could certainly afford to keep Reyes, we may just choose not to. Big difference.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet
Yes, but
with 60 mil tied up in 3 ineffective/injured players already (in Bay, Johan, and Wright) we have just as much financial flexibility as they do.
I realize that right now those 3 are technically not producing
Your statement implies that those 3 will be ineffective going forward as well, which is what really matter.
It is possible that Bay never gets back to even being a shadow of himself, but I think that is highly unlikely. He won’t be the player he was in Boston 2 years ago, but a the same time he is probably going to be able to get back to being at the bare minimum serviceable (2-3 WAR).
I won’t even start on Wright, not worth my effort.
Johan probably won’t be the same pitcher he was, and most likely not worth his contract; but he, like Bay will more likely than not at least be a serviceable piece going forward.
David Wright can easily be worth 20M by himself.
Even in his past two years where most ppl think he’s been no where near his own capability he’s been worth 15-16M each season.
Bay and Santana will be gone after 2013
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet
Thats the Mets best chance for resigning Reyes
If they can backload his deal so that the big money doesnt kick in until then I think they have a shot at signing him. That said, they have GOT to improve the farm in those couple of years.
As I said before, this might be hard for a Mets fan to understand
But are not in good financial shape right now. As Chakrabs said, the Mets are not going to be throwing out 120-130 million dollar payrolls. The owners are being sued for a billion dollars. They are losing 70 million dollars a year on the team. They had to sells a third of the team just to make payroll and operating expenses for this year.
If the Mets did not have these issues, than no one would be talking about whether or not they could resign Reyes. Unfortunately, the Mets do have serious financial issues, and very little payroll flexibility.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
So where's the payroll going to be next year, Sandy?
Is it going to be 50 million? 70 million? 90 million?
I just don’t believe that the payroll is really going down to 100 million. I think it’ll sit in the ~120 range and that would be plenty to re-sign Reyes and add some other less expensive pieces.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
Follow me on Twitter: @_mistermet
by Steve Schreiber on Jun 22, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't be ridiculous
You can’t arbitrarily say that you think the payroll will be in the 120 range, and then call me “Sandy” because I think it will be lower. Not to mention, all the numbers you threw out were exaggeratedly low.
The Mets have 63 million bucks owed to Santana, Wright, Bay, Dickey, and Carrasco for next year. Pagan is up for arbitration, and at a minimum will make 5 million. Pelfrey is also up for arbitration, and will make at least 6 million. That’s 74 million for 7 players. This doesn’t even include K-Rod….Even if you hope that his option doesn’t vest, he’s still owed a 3.5 million dollar buyout. You’re looking at close to 80 million dollars already for 8 players. Then you want to sign Jose to a 20 million dollar a year deal? You’re at a 100 million for 9 players. That gives you 14 spots to fill on the roster. Even if you filled the roster with minor leaguers, that’d still be about 7 million bucks.
So the Mets would realistically need a 107 million dollar payroll to squeeze Reyes in, and that’s if you’re telling Sandy Alderson he can’t sign anyone else. For a guy who was brought in to rebuild a team, I doubt he’s going to want to spend his first two offseasons signing practically no one. Maybe you’re right and the payroll is closer to 120 million, but given everything the Mets are going through, I doubt it.
That had nothing to do with the original point of Reyes vs. Piazza, but I guess the point is that everybody here is assuming that if the Mets don’t sign Reyes, it’s because of lack of will, and not finances, and that’s just not true.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
i was about to say that
"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengal
i cant spell a nosebleed
he's gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OLIE PEREZ IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's kind of hard to win when your best outfielder after Beltran is Endy Chavez
And you have no catcher, second baseman or bullpen.
And that's my point
This Mets team has less stars than that one. So we’re going to need some stud players, and some role players to fit in with them. There’s no way this team as its currently constructed has a more promising core than we did before.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Meh
You don’t need stars at every position. If you field a team of 8 good players, a good bullpen and 5 good starters, you’ll have a 90 win team. So if you have two or three stars and surround them with good players, you’ll have a 95+ win team.
The 2006 Mets were 3 superstars, 4 good players, 2 good pitchers, a good bullpen and replacement level crap. Seriously, Tom Glavine was 8th on that team in offensive WAR. A pitcher was our eighth best batter on a 97 win team. A pitcher, a guy with a .222 wOBA, was worth more than the guys we combined to be our third outfielder.
So the point is, that team needed Beltran, Reyes and Wright to be superstars, but a good GM could put together a winning team with a bunch of good players all around.
I never said they did
I said they need more than what they have now.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
You do not rebuild by trading away the core you already have.
You trade away the players who suck.
"You can spend minutes, hours, days weeks or even months overanalyzing a situation; trying to put the pieces together, justifying what would’ve, could’ve happened – or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the **** on."
-Tupac Amaru Shakur
by NetsMets4Life on Jun 22, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds catchy
But it’s just not true. Rebuilding teams trade away good players all the time when they aren’t affordable. See Adrian Gonzalez. Jose is not some untouchable 22 year old prospect making the league minimum anymore.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Again, you referenced a team with a payroll less than half of ours.
You can’t compare situations in Tampa and San Diego to ours.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet
Those guys had no way to substantially increase their payroll
With the drop in attendence, outstanding interest on debt, a HUGE lawsuit against our owners and a franchise hemorrhaging money, the Mets really dont have a way to increase payroll either.
They aren't going to have to let it fall to 60M though
Which is what it would take to put them in the category of SD and TB etc.
The Mets shouldn’t resign Jose at any cost (hurts to say, but its true), but they should and can resign him to a market value contract of around 19-20M a year.
In no way do I think they should sign Jose if some other team is filling to give him say 25M/yr for 7 yrs, but lets cross that bridge when we get there.
Everything is relative
Obviously the Mets payroll isn’t going to fall to 63 million; They owe that much to Wright, Bay, Santana, and Dickey. But when you can’t afford a player, you can’t afford him, whether or not your payroll limit is 60 million or 100 million.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
if they get rid of jose
they’d be one jose away. fucking logic.
LONG ISLAND
Does he really spend the winters in Long Island? I’m hoping that the Mets do re-sign him & he uses some of that money to enjoy himself in the sun instead of shoveling snow.
I think that's true.
He was spotted at an Islanders game in luxury box in late January, much to the shock and delight to Howie Rose and any other Mets/Isles fans.
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.
i recall a post here on AA
that said he showed up to WNBA Liberty games. That’s some fkn dedication
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 22, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Reyes built a multi-million dollar complex
in Stone Hill and I believe either his family or his wife’s family (or both?) live there as well. So, yes – he spends his winters in Long Island. I guess he’d stay here for comfort reasons, but if the money is too good elsewhere he’d obviously have to take it.
Amazin Avenue Offseason Plan Contest Winner - 2011 Mets
by MattT516 on Jun 22, 2011 10:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This headline sounds like an Encylopedia Brown/Hardy Boys style mystery
Reyes as children’s detective would be awesome.
But seriously, good story.
I first read it as "Jose Reyes and the Pizza President"
I was let down.
by TheBigStapler on Jun 22, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
mmm Pizza President...
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.
Right now there a David Wright and Ike Davis and Johan Santana away
from being realistically in the conversation. Losing Jose takes them out of the ballpark. Not to sound cliche’ but they have been somewhat snakebitten over the last couple of years and if the injuries to key guys werent there i think 08 and 09 at least would have played out differently as well as this year to a lesser extent. The bottom line is regardless of what the overinflated market says Jose is worth no more than 6yrs and 110 million and any schmuck that pays him more will regret that. Don’t be fooled by this years numbers, does anybody really think Jose is a .340 hitter?
Undefeated is the new "Winning".
Duh, undefeated....
by The real Julio from Paterson on Jun 22, 2011 3:35 PM EDT reply actions
wait, so you're telling me there's a chance?

I LIKE IKE!
by astromets on Jun 22, 2011 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
This gets auto greened
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by Coolpapabell on Jun 23, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The Piazza Precedent
Sounds like it could be a Robert Ludlum novel.
this all bores me frankly
but man, imagine if the Mets had Reyes during the Piazza years. Initiate dream sequence…
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
No one is asking what Jose's girlfriends think
always factor in the road beef baby.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
Dammed if we do, dammed if we dont
It seems that no matter what happens, the team is in for a continuous vicious cycle for awhile.
If we sign Reyes even more payroll will be tied up so if say King Felix wants out of Seattle for example we wouldn’t be able to make a good bid for him and be left out in the cold just like during the Cliff Lee war.
If we don’t sign Reyes, then the franchise is going to be hurt with an even sharper drops in attendance, merchandise sales and even worse team performing on the field. Which in turn cause the team to lose more money, which is needed to sign free agents. The worse case is that whoever replaces Selig in 2012 orders contraction of the team due to the continuation of losses.
Insert witty signature here
Never say never
But I highly doubt the Mets would EVER be on any contraction list
"Sometimes you make a mistake and you get hit in the head." - Eli Manning
This was a nice stroll down memory lane
Thanks Matt.
Its always nice to revist some of the NY media hacks misscalls.
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