Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: 7 Important Questions About The Heat Vs. Celtics Series

K-Rod: A Tale of Two GMs

Jon Bois, one of the genii behind The Dugout and now a fellow SB Nation scribe, frequently conducts online chats in search of the answer to the question: Who is the most [BLANK] player ever? The [BLANK] is usually filled in with a team name, but he's also written posts on such puzzlers such as, Who is the most Diamond Kings baseball player ever? (If you don't know or can't recall what Diamond Kings were, suffice to say they exemplified the bloated "these idiots will buy anything" era of baseball card collectibles; kind of like the sports memorabilia equivalent of prog rock.) The idea is that, for each of these questions, the answer is someone who completely, totally, and utterly exemplifies something, often in an unquantifiable way. For instance, I'd say Kent Hrbek is the most Twins player ever because, I mean, c'mon.

I thought of Bois immediately upon hearing the news of K-Rod's departure for Milwaukee, for he may be the most Omar Minaya player ever--or rather, the most Omar Minaya acquisition ever (as opposed to guys like David Wright and Jose Reyes, who came with the frame of his administration). Newsday's Ken Davidoff must have thought the same thing, since his column on the trade posits the same theory. I'd like to go into more detail as to why this is, with some parallel examination as to why him being shipped off to Wisconsin is the most Sandy Alderson trade ever (for the Mets, anyway).

Star-divide

First off, we need to determine what characterizes the Omar administration's moves. I would say the following:

  • Bidding against yourself
  • Little to no regard for loss of draft picks (for free agents) or prospects (for trades)
  • Little to no attention paid to market trends or any type of advanced analysis
  • Reactionary (rather than proactive) moves
  • Pursuing "names" over needs as a means of pacifying fans hungry for moves
  • Issuing (or acquiring) contracts with incentives and options that are punitively onerous for the team in fear that otherwise the target will sign elsewhere

Now we need to determine who doesn't fit the bill. I think you have to immediately remove Minayar's more prominent acquisitions--Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, and Carlos Beltran--from contention. You can argue that each one was overpaid (Carlos Beltran less so than the others, I think), but you also have to remember that each one of these players was coveted by other teams. If the Mets overpaid for any of them, it was not crazy (at the time) to do so. They were all really good players as well, the kind that could have helped any team, so I don't think it's fair to say they were reactionary moves or constitute the pursuit of a free agent for pursuit's sake.

The Luis Castillo and Oliver Perez contracts are much closer to Typical Minaya, but I don't think they qualify for the top spots. Omar almost definitely bid against himself for both, in complete and total ignorance of market trends. However, neither player qualified as a "name," even before their already middling abilities fell off a cliff. Their contracts did not smack of desperation to satisfy fans, but rather seem to reflect Minaya's fear of having to look elsewhere to fill either hole, a combination of lack of imagination and laziness. I suppose that is also an Minaya-esque move, but I don't think it's the most Minaya move, if that makes sense. (And even if it doesn't, lets move on.)

With Jeff Francoeur and Alex Cora, we inch a little closer to the ideal. Both were grossly overpaid, as if they were hot commodities pursued by many other teams (newsflash from Duh Aficionado Magazine: they weren't). Their contracts ate up a ton of money that could have been better spent elsewhere. Both were acquired to shore up perceived Mets weaknesses--their bench and outfield--long after said weaknesses had been exposed. Both were, in their own way, "names"--guys who seemed suited for their jobs more on reputation than ability.

Worthy contenders, but I think the nod goes to K-Rod. Let us count the ways, shall we?

In 2008, Frankie Rodriguez set the new single-season saves record. To some fans and other people who believe in saves, this meant a great deal. For baseball people--you know, the kind of people who run baseball teams?--this should have meant little, especially when coupled with K-Rod's clearly diminishing velocity, and the questionable value of a closer to begin with. In a game that is so hidebound and married to tradition, never has a myth taken hold so quickly that the last three outs of a game are a sacred thing that only those magical creatures dubbed Closers can handle, regardless of the batters who represent those last three outs.

It was a typical Minaya move to not only believe in this voodoo, but to grossly overpay for it. Because while K-Rod was setting this record, the Mets were missing out on a playoff spot by one game yet again, and the post-Billy-Wagner-injury bullpen was seen as the main culprit. Relief pitching was undoubtedly a major factor, but that begs the question why it was not ably addressed during the season instead of throwing Luis Ayala to the lions every night. Regardless, the offseason brought angry WFAN calls about how the Mets HAD to get a big-time closer. The pursuit of K-Rod was clearly motivated as much by fan unrest as it was by the team's needs, which is not a great way to build a ballclub. There are many aspects to running a sports team in which the wants and desires of fans should be considered. Roster construction is not one.

Even so, the signing of K-Rod in and of itself was not terrible or even very Minaya-ish. Frankie was a proven commodity in the arbitrary field of closing, and with Wagner lost to the knife of Dr. James Andrews, the Mets had an opening at the position. Where things got really Minaya'ed is in the contract.

Once he became a free agent, K-Rod made noise about wanting a five-year, $75 million deal. What Minaya should have done is look around, seen how many other teams were in the market for a closer and could afford him (zero, after the Angels quickly abandoned their efforts to keep him), and offered K-Rod a sane contract. What Minaya did is give him a deal that could have been penned by the Marquis de Sade. It was a four-year deal masquerading as a three-year deal, containing an easily obtainable fourth-year option that could only be avoided by severe injury or Apocalypse.

On top of all this, the K-Rod signing displayed Minaya regime's total disregard for the value of draft picks. By signing K-Rod, a type-A free agent, the Mets lost their first round draft pick in 2009. That was bad enough, but K-Rod's presence on the roster made him trade Billy Wagner to the Red Sox once he rebounded from Tommy John surgery in August of 2009. Minaya could have hung on to Wagner and recouped a compensation and a sandwich pick when he inevitably signed elsewhere (assuming he rejected arbitration, which he surely would have). Instead, Minaya opted for a few months of salary relief that was minimal at best, plus Chris "The Animal" Carter. So in essence, K-Rod's acquisition was responsible for the loss of three draft picks.

Conversely, the trade of K-Rod to Milwaukee might be the most Sandy Alderson move of his young regime. First of all, he managed an extremely delicate situation (fear of K-Rod's option vesting vs. the wrath of the players' union) adroitly. Of perhaps he simply told Terry Collins "Do what you gotta do," confident he'd figure something out. In either case, it's hard to imagine Minaya being able to do the same.

Secondly, Alderson pounced when K-Rod changed agents. Literally within hours of Scott Boras making waves about how K-Rod HAD to be a closer, Alderson pulled the trigger on the trade. The previous GM seemed mesmerized by the mere mention of Boras's name. Not so with Sandy.

He also took advantage of a team in Win Now mode, as the Mets were so often taken advantage of in similar circumstances. The Brewers are playing all in this season, emptying the farm system for Zack Greinke and Shawn Marcum, and knowing this could be their last year of Prince Fielder. Alderson realized he could get such a team to take the risk of allowing K-Rod's option to vest, because if he helps them win it all, hey, tragedy tomorrow, comedy tonight. Minaya was, more often than not, on the losing end of such propositions.

The difference K-Rod makes on a team like this year's Mets is minimal. In pure on-the-field terms, he is not the person who will put this team over the top, if such a thing as possible. In salary terms, he could cripple the team next season and dash any hope they have of resigning Jose Reyes. Recognizing all of this, Alderson clearly decided it was worth it to himself of K-Rod by any means necessary, including eating salary and getting little of value in return, in order to save the Mets' future. And he did so while not caring that this would cause many fans (and reporters who should really know better) to think the Mets are "backing up the truck." If his actions at the 2009 and 2010 deadlines are any indication, Omar would have been terrified to do this.

But perhaps the most Alderson aspect of the whole thing is that it happened without a whisper of a ghost of a rumor hitting the press. There were virtually no indications whatsoever that a deal involving K-Rod was imminent. I did not suspect anything until seeing a few tweets from SNY folks moments after the All Star Game ended. With no leaks, there was no chance for people on either side of the deal to receive flak from the press and get cold feet. Contrast that with Minaya, who telegraphed every one of his moves to the media, usually to his detriment.

Frankie Rodriguez owns the unique distinction of arriving in Queens in the most Omar way possible and departing in the most Sandy way possible. Perhaps he is owed some kind of commemorative plaque for this. Thank goodness we'll have to send it to Milwaukee.

Comment 108 comments  |  10 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Kent Hrbek is, without a doubt, the most Twins player ever.

Nice writeup.

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Jul 14, 2011 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

No way. I had waaayy more Kent Hrbek cards than Kirby Puckett cards.

I swear there must have been a Kent Hrbek card in every Topps pack in 1987.

That said, I did own a Kirby Puckett “bighead” T-shirt, which was pretty cool.

We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Jul 14, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Brad Radke to me (nothing to do with baseball cards though)

though technically Walter Johnson and Harmon Kilebrew should be fighting it out

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Jul 14, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Get Bobby a pogo stick and shave his head....

Now we just need Parnell to start acting crazy like Brian Wilson and all will be ok

Grouchoman
"The 2011 Mets - Love for Sale!"

by Grouchoman on Jul 14, 2011 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Excellent read.

Puts both Minaya’s tenure in perspective and shows what is to come in Alderson’s tenure. Doesn’t really rip Minaya as badly as I figured, but gave a honest assessment of the differences between the two regimes. Well done.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

In retrospect

this would have been better with a double-neck guitar.

by tmu on Jul 14, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Double-neck guitars are double the awesomeness

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jul 14, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's a double neck guitar in the background of the album cover

exponentially increasing the awesome, is that it’s a harp guitar.

"they're still shitty"

by Help!I'maRock! on Jul 14, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very good read.

First thing I thought of when I heard this early Wednesday morning was how impressed I was that this didn’t leak at all until it was a done deal.

Well done, Sandy.

by MetsFan4Decades on Jul 14, 2011 11:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Good read but

I’m tired of reading about baseball. I want to watch it (not that crap they call the "All Star festivities either).

by lstorie1971 on Jul 14, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Nice

If anything, this trade shows that Alderson is fully serious about completely changing the management culture of the organization and not just a Selig plant like the media kept saying.

Insert witty signature here

by BlueChill on Jul 14, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes culture change.

Something this team has needed for a long time.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

thing is

remember when minaya came in and got pedro everybody said minaya was “the culture change” and “breath of fresh air” this team needed post steve phillips

metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?

by dabu7 on Jul 14, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is what I am referring to.

It is clear from the Omar Minaya era that the culture did NOT change and the mistakes that Minaya made were just a continuation from the Phillips era. The organziational culture still needs to change its ways from the Phillips-Minaya and it seems that Alderson (so far) is taking the steps necessary to make it so.

So, they needed a change for ten years running, not two years running.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think it was the drafting college relief pitchers

that was the biggest sign for me…

i wasnt that into the draft at the time, and even I knew that sounded like a bad idea.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 15, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

When asked for a quote

About the departure of his successor, Billy Wagner simply said “f’n shocker”.

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 14, 2011 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Really? Link?

Insert witty signature here

by BlueChill on Jul 14, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

Pretty sure that was humor.

by MetsFan4Decades on Jul 14, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I envision

Wagner using that as his usual response to anything Mets related. He really was ornery, particularly after his first year.

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 14, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very thoughtful analysis

I bumped into Sandy Alderson at my local bagel shop Tuesday morning. I introduced myself as a rabid lifelong Mets fan and offered a few unsolicited pieces of transaction advice to Mr. Alderson. He thanked me for my interest in the team then noted politely that if I didn’t mind he was trying to enjoy his breakfast and excused himself. I think I saw him roll his eyes.

That is of course fiction. Good job Mr. Alderson. Keep it up.

by Jay_What on Jul 14, 2011 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

I believe it's a reference

To this:

“All I kept on hearing in the streets of New York when you go get bagels in the morning was, ‘Omar, please address the bullpen,’” Mets general manager Omar Minaya said. “Well, to all you Mets fans, we’ve addressed the bullpen.”

Which led to the winter (that has spanned 2 years) of our discontent:

“To get one closer like Frankie would have been a good winter. I think to get two guys like this is a great winter,” Minaya said.

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 14, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah yes

the Mama’s of Corona Managerial Method.

by TheBigStapler on Jul 14, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

While it's too early to know how it all works out....

    I think Jason Bay and his contract need to be in this discussion. It’s sad to realize that so many of the delayed reaction time-bombs that have sunk the Mets over the last few years have been totally self-inflicted. Between Omar’s short-term, knee-jerk reactions (emphasis on the second half of the term “knee-jerk”), Jerry’s mismanagement skills and toxic atmospheric abilities, the Willingpawns general cluelessness and acute foot-in-mouth and thief in wallet tendencies and the questionable medical decisions made regarding player health, we’ve “Met” the enemy and it’s been the organization. As been said elsewhere, it’s nice to have an adult in the room for a change, but I think we all need to have patience, as while many of the names have left the room, the stench remains, and the fallout of misguided and foolish policies will take more than a season of competent leadership to be exorcised.

by Cranky50 on Jul 14, 2011 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Jason Bay may be even more Omar-like

because, unlike K-Rod, his signing will hamstring our budget for an entire generation. Johan Santana is similar in that regard but he’s at least been great for part of his contract like Pedro.

by TheBigStapler on Jul 14, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's what I meant....

Santana, with health, at least would have been the stud ace in the rotation, but Bay didn’t really fill a critical need, wasn’t a particularly good fit, cost a fortune, was signed for years in the future when there was every reason to doubt he’d be productive, and shackled the organization in the near future. That Bay lost his power at the start of the contract wasn’t to be really expected, but just made matters worse. To me, Bay, more than K-Rod is the ultimate Omar move, and Putz would probably be number 2, not K-Rod, as the whole basis of the idea that if one closer is good, two must be three times as good, eventhough the roles are somewhat mutually exclusive, and the lack of care taken in regards to Putz’ medical condition both before and after are more syntomatic of the whole Minaya era. It’s alway what I mean by it will take time to purge the organization of the stench left behind. Bay’s contract will fully impact this team going forward, though if Jason rediscovers his stroke, it will be less and less of an anvil.

by Cranky50 on Jul 14, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Figured Bay would be a lot tougher mentally being a successful MLB player for years.Like Yogi said "This game is

50% skill and 90% mental".Mets who need a sports shrink 1-Mike Pelfrey 2-Jason Bay 3-David Wright 4-Lucas Duda.

by Putnan Prince on Jul 14, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i really can't tell

if you’re being a super obvious troll or really believe this stuff you say. i really can’t.

by cntrlalt on Jul 14, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

idk but

I think the idea of a dedicated sports shrink, or a crack team of same, for the Amazin’s has merit. we could use a motivational speaker, too. life coaches? hmmmm,

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "

– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf

by Terry_is_God on Jul 14, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

They probably have one.

Most Orgs probably have one.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 15, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sports shrinks arent that far out of ideas...

NHL goalies use them all the time

Insert witty signature here

by BlueChill on Jul 14, 2011 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find Bay more a signature Wilpon move

Omar liked to go all in (when allowed, I guess) for the big deals. Minaya would have gone for Hday7. Bay was just – we need a free agent signing to make the fan base believe that next year can be better than last; we need to sell some tickets. That’s Jeff.

by SuperT on Jul 14, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh how I remember those misguided "Omar the savior" signs...

I saw at Shea. it made me want to gag.

very excellent write up Matthew, it puts Omar Minaya’s reign of terror and the short-sighted signings of “k”-Rod [among others] into light.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 14, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Well he was in the beginning

And if the Mets pulled out game seven in 2006 we probably would’ve had a World Series title.

The problem with Minaya was his attitude after that near miss; to him, after 2006 the Mets were always one more piece away from solving all their problems, which led him to throw lots of money for that last piece of the puzzle. Everything with him became a reactionary move to plug another leak on the ship….The Mets collapsed in 2007? Obviously it’s because we have no ace to stop the slide, so we went out and traded for Johan Santana. The Mets collapsed in 2007 because their bullpen blew too many games, so we went out and traded for JJ Putz and signed K-Rod. The Mets sucked worse in 2009 because no one could hit home runs, so we went out and signed Jason Bay for his power.

Finally he was fired in 2010, but the pattern was pretty clear. I don’t think he ever got over the fact that the Mets were so close in 2006, and could never look past the one most glaring problem facing the team.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Jul 14, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Agree, Omar was REACTIONARY.

He should have thought one season ahead instead of one season behind.

What he should have done in 2005 was have Tonya Harding break Adam Wainwrights knees.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Jul 14, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh and HAHAHAHA--great reference scottfrompeekskill

What he should have done in 2005 was have Tonya Harding break Adam Wainwrights knees.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 14, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

true, but this team had holes from the time Omar made them 1 -season playoff team

though the injuries aren’t quite his fault….I blame Dr. Zoidberg for that one

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 14, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said

The glaring problem changed every year. There was never any foresight, just reactionary signings. Needed a 1B? Get Delgado. Needed an SP? Get Santana. Bullpen starts sucking? Get K-Rod and Putz. Team has no power? Just sign Jason Bay. etc etc.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Jul 14, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

just goes to show how great omar was

by revans on Jul 14, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

OT

And . . . .Clemens trial is a mistrial. That didn’t take long.

by tmu on Jul 14, 2011 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

What?

For real?
wow….the money spent on this….

by MetsFan4Decades on Jul 14, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just

Misremember that it ever happened.

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 14, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the extra kick in the nuts

is that with the pick the Angels got for K-rod they took a prospect by the name of Mike Trout. Ouch.

Right now I feel like the Mets are in a similar situation as the Knicks were in a few year ago, albeit with a better team. They have a bunch of bad contracts from the previous guy in charge and the new one has to cut that fat. In this case there isn’t really one free agent that we’re going to target but just a more general intelligent rebuilding process.

by revans on Jul 14, 2011 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

i've always found the plight of the blue and orange interesting in this city

all 3 teams – Mets, Knicks, and Isles – just can’t seem to sustain any kind of long term success.

"they're still shitty"

by Help!I'maRock! on Jul 14, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the four Stanley Cups the Islanders won in the 1980s isn't considered long term success?

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

4 in a row is amazing.

but it was also 30 years ago.

"they're still shitty"

by Help!I'maRock! on Jul 14, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, then my question is,

what is your definition of long-term success? Cause you could make the argument that the Knicks of the 90s had long-term success as well. They just ran into the GOAT six times in a eight year span, had a terrible performance by a three-point shooter in game 7 of a finals, and got beaten by young Shaq in the other two years. This is also ignoring the fact that they lost the Spurs in the finals of a strike-shorten season in 1999. No championships, sure, but I’s consider that successful for a long period of time.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

young Shaq one year, bad shooting performance in the other year

not two years beaten by a young Shaq.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

New York fans don't consider that long term success though

they consider that long term blue balls.

"they're still shitty"

by Help!I'maRock! on Jul 14, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then that's a fair standard

And the only one that has reached that is the baseball team in the Bronx and maybe, maybe, the Devils.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

..and I fear whats going to be the future of the Devils

Broduer probably has one more season, team still needs a new coach that can you know actually coach players and of course the salary cap.

Insert witty signature here

by BlueChill on Jul 14, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

long island is not the city

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 14, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what

The Giants and Jets dont play in the city either but they represent NY too. Although with the Islanders, Ive read rumors of relocation/selling of the team

Insert witty signature here

by BlueChill on Jul 14, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

the islanders are a long island team

same as saying the bills are a nyc team…

the giants and jets are actually nyc teams, just have their stadium in jersey for some silly reason.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 15, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

They are called the NEW YORK Islanders

Not the Long Island Islanders.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 15, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Isles are not in this city

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jul 14, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depend your definition of "City"

Some only consider Manhattan to be the real City – which would mean that the only true NYC teams are the Rangers and Knicks. Others claim that NYC reaches all the way to Delaware and Connecticut.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 15, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

NYC

is the 5 boroughs.

Not long Island, not Westchester…. the 5 boroughs.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 16, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tell that to the sociologists.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 16, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure thing.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 16, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually it was the next pick that they used for Mike Trout

but the Mets would have been able to select him had K-Rod not been signed:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=year_round&year_ID=2009&draft_round=1&draft_type=junreg

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jul 14, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Delgado was traded for

So I don’t think that Omar can really be blamed for his contract. Also I don’t think that he was overpaid. He got hurt (which could of probably been expected), but played well when healty.

by Joshuah on Jul 14, 2011 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Got crazy good in the 2006 playoffs and damn near got us a WS appearance.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Jul 14, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

for fun (tourture?)

i decided to see who was drafted in those lost draft picks…

the angles selected: Randal Grichuck with the first pick they received (but, to make life more fun… they selected trout with the very next pick (as compensation from the yankees) so he would have been available had the mets saved that pick…)

the angles also selected: Garrett Richards with the sandwich pick.

The Sox drafted Kolbrin Vitek and Anthony Ranaudo with the picks they got for wagner

I am not sure what those guys are up to, but maybe some of you minor league experts do…

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 14, 2011 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

J.J. Putz

  I think the trade for JJ Putz, Sean Green, and Jeremy Reed may turn out to be Omar’s worst move. I think the trade is, for the most part, viewed universally as a bad trade. We gave up several players who were regarded as B or C prospects. Two of them, Jason Vargas and Joe Smith, have turned out to be solid MLB pitchers. Mike Carp is killing the ball in AAA, but has struggled in the brief stints he’s had when called up. He’ still only 25 and I think there is a very good chance he too will be a solid MLB player. Centerfielder Ezequiel Carrera is having a good, though not spectacular year in AAA. He profiles as a speedy leadoff type hitter with a good on base percentage, but little power. He’ s 24 years old and I think he has a pretty good chance of being at least a league average centerfielder.

  The real test of how bad this trade is going to be is pitcher Maikel Cleto. At the time of the trade, he was a 19 year old pitcher who had a fastball that could reach 100 mph and not much else. He was regarded as a C prospect when we traded him but he was the one guy in the trade who had star potential if he could ever put it all together. He’s now with the Cardinals and is having a breakout season, going from A ball to AAA, and having strong peripherals all along the way. Like any young pitcher, he could still be a bust, but he’s still only 22 and has the best pitching coach in baseball in Dave Duncan, so I`m not optimistic. If he becomes a star, this trade goes from bad to historically bad. I think this trade shows that, from a value standpoint, giving up a bunch of C prospects can be just as bad or worse than giving up single top prospect (of course it matters who you`re trading for).

by Unappreciated Genius on Jul 14, 2011 12:49 PM EDT reply actions  

What is with the Mets and players with fish names?

Mike Trout and Mike Carp!

We coulda had both of them!

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Jul 14, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

gives some hope

when talking about the Milwaukee farm system and our two ptbnl

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 14, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

hard to say which was Omar's "best"...er. worst moves

but JJ putz ranks up there in its stink. the fact that he never back-checked for Putz’ medical record SCREAMS “I am desperate and mediocre”

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 14, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really good piece

Agreed that Krod is the Omariest of the Omars.

That said — and I hate to bring this up again — I have trouble believing dumping Wagner (and the potential for draft picks) was his call. When did Omar ever show the slightest inclination toward fiscal prudence? Sure, a savvier GM who appreciated the value of draft picks could have argued more for holding on to them, but that strikes me as a Wilpon move.

by Bieser's Balk on Jul 14, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

sure, but we hadn't had one of those since Cashen

and wouldn’t again until now. just a string of knuckleheads who didn’t have the balls to stand up to the Wilpons.

i’m sticking to my theory that Alderson was thrust upon them by Selig. there’s no way they would have hired him on their own, and would have installed another knucklehead with the same faults as his predecessors.

"they're still shitty"

by Help!I'maRock! on Jul 14, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

On Delgado

how did Omar overpay for him? He didn’t sign him and the trade was a definite win for us.

Interestingly, the signing and trade can be considered a win for the Marlins. They barely had to pay Delgado in the first season (4 mil), then they got a cheap replacement in Mike Jacobs – who was good for them a few seasons. And we only gave up Jacobs, Petit and Psomas (?)

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Jul 14, 2011 1:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I know I'm in minority, but I simply

do not agree with several claims in the piece, including the main message that the K-Rod signing was Minaya’s biggest mistake.

and the post-Billy-Wagner-injury bullpen was seen as the main culprit

Well, the bullpen blew 29 saves that year and it’s save to say it was the main culprit.

It was a typical Minaya move to not only believe in this voodoo, but to grossly overpay for it

It was a four-year deal masquerading as a three-year deal, containing an easily obtainable fourth-year option that could only be avoided by severe injury or Apocalypse.

The deal was 51 million for 4 years with the 4th year not guaranteed. A single trip to the DL (not mentioning a season ending surgery as in Wagner’s case) or even a relatively short period of ineffectiveness would prevent the option from vesting. The option was not that easily attainable. But even if it were, the 51/4 contract was not that outrageous at the time. They were about 5 other closers with comparable contracts and Frankie’s deal was signed just before the market totally collapsed – which we hardly can blame Omar for not anticipating. The only mistake Omar made with the contract was that he had it backloaded. While the backloading makes the deal actually cheaper for the Mets, it makes the contract look much worse now.

by alexSVK on Jul 14, 2011 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

The vest

I think you’re understating the ease with which K-Rod could achieve the vest. I agree that a DL stint would probably sink it, but I don’t think a “relatively short period of ineffectiveness” would – the vest was based on games finished, which wasn’t really impacted by whether K-Rod was good or not; as long as he was closing out games, he was likely going to be the last pitcher used in a game and notch a game finished. So unless he was bumped from the closer position, he was probably going to achieve the vest.

Now, it’s arguably true that Collins overused K-Rod in low-leverage situations (notice I didn’t say non-save situations; I fully supported bringing him in in tight 8th inning spots, in tie games on the road, and whatnot), making the vest easier to achieve than it would have been otherwise. But the flipside is that because the vest was, at best, not all that hard to achieve, the Mets would have been under substantial scrutiny from the Players’ Union had they used K-Rod less than he wanted (and you can bet that he would have “asked for extra work to keep him sharp” if he was not on target for the vest at some point). It basically created a very difficult situation where as long as K-Rod wasn’t actually bad enough to demote from the closer spot, the Mets had no way out without coming under scrutiny from the union. (Compare that with the case of Cora, where the Mets could release him him without fearing union retribution because he was awful enough that they could credibly claim that they weren’t dumping him simply to avoid the vest.)

In essence, then, the vest was more or less equivalent to an extra year of the contract barring (1) suckitude sufficient to justify a demotion from closer, or (2) injury.

And finally, with regard to the money, by the time the Mets signed K-Rod, the overvaluing of (a) “closers” and (b) saves was already clear to anyone who was somewhat familiar with advanced stats (FWIW, “Moneyball” came out in 2003). Omar was clearly on the opposite end of that spectrum, and while it’s true that his outdated views were more prevalent at the time of the K-Rod signing than they are now, it doesn’t make him any less wrong.

by dontstopbelieving on Jul 14, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I mean, K-Rod missed nearly two months last season and still was easily on pace to have the option vest. Unless he missed most of last year — or spent time on the DL this year — it was likely to vest.

by Bieser's Balk on Jul 14, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is well put

I agree that the vest was reasonably achievable but really had an issue with Mathew making it a slam-dunk. It would not take a severe injury to avoid the vest. Any injury would do. And it’s actually not an easy task to avoid the DL. Just consider the most expensive Mets players in recent years: Delgado (2009), Reyes (2009, 2010, 2011), Wright (2009, 2011), Beltran (2009, 2010), Santana (2010, 2011), Wagner (2009), Rodriguez (2010). That leaves us with only the following healthy seasons: Wright 2010, Santana 2009 (although finishing injured!), Rodriguez (2009, 2011?) and hopefully Beltran 2011. Frankie avoiding the DL cannot be considered given.

As far as your last paragraph is concerned, I encourage you to take a look how the AA community reacted to K-Rod signing in December 2008. You would be surprised but the deal was welcomed by almost everyone. Therefore, I find it hypocritical that Omar gets bashed for K-Rod’s contract by overwhelming majority of this community.

by alexSVK on Jul 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only thing I would say

the only thing I would say in response to reading this thread and all the comments is, most things seem clearer in retrospect. At the time he was signed, the Mets did need a closer that they could have some reasonable faith in. No question to my view that the contract was a bit of an overpay (lol) but at that time the Mets did not have the same financial restraints/difficulties they now have. There is no way Minaya could have known about a ponzi scheme that threatens the team’s financial health and the financial health of his bosses (the WilponKatz’). Would the Mets have given Santana $22,000,000+ a year if they knew he was going to get injured and miss significant time? With any long-term contract, be it for the major league minimum or for the league’s highest salary, the risk of injury/time missed is there.

I’m not defending Minaya per se, but really the only reason the K-Rod deal had to be removed from this team today is the financial issues the ownership currently has, new building costs, the ponzi scheme etc., which NO GM could have forseen.

No question to me either that the Putz deal was horrendous, there can be no excuses for the management to not double and triple check the health of the player obtained BEFORE obtaining him.

And to me, the Delgado trade was a high point, he was some terrific hitter which the team really needed, and has as of yet to replace.

"From what I see there's still a little hope
that's if we don't hang from too much rope" -- big audio dynamite

by big audio on Jul 14, 2011 5:56 PM EDT reply actions  

i think even if the mets were in perfect financial health

trading KRod would have been a smart move.

Just because you are not hurting for money, doesnt mean you can go making poor financial decisions.

Every team has a budget, if that is 100MM, 120MM or 140MM, either way that 17 mil is money better spent elsewhere.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 15, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Questionable Value of a Closer?

Name teams in the last 25 yrs who won a championship without a top notch pitcher closing games? The closest I can come are the 2006 Cardinals but as we have learned Adam Wainwright is one hell of a good pitcher.

 I think you can make a strong argument that the Braves lost out on more championship by having a weak bullpen. Closets like Kerry Lightenburg, Mark Wohlers, John Rocker clearly hurt then (not that I have a ton of sympathy for the hated Braves).

I am not saying you overpay for a closer like Omar did but until teams start winning championships regularly without quality closers I am not going to think they are of questionable value.

by millsy on Jul 14, 2011 8:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Last 25 years, eh?

2006 Cardinals (Izzy had an okay year and Wainwright took over)
2003 Marlins (Braden Looper)
2001 Diamondbacks (Terrible WS for Kim, good in the regular season, not top notch)
1997 Marlins (Rob Nen was good in name only in 1997)
1995 Braves (Since you named Wohlers in your post)
1987 Twins (Terrible Bullpen)

Not including: the 92 and 93 Blue Jays, who did not have a steady presence at the closer position; 90 Reds, same thing; 88 Dodgers, same thing; 86 Mets same thing.

So, we have 6 WS Champs that did not have one top notch pitcher closing for them. We have 5 more WS champs who had outstanding bullpens that they were multiple top notch guys that could close and they did.

Note: Of the last 25 years, only one team, the 1987 Twins, had a terrible bullpen. In fact, I am shocked they won the WS that year (Must have been some Viola magic). While having a top notch closer is definitely a plus, the evidence would suggest that having a great bullpen (more than two guys with ERA+ > 150) is more valuable than having just the one top notch guy (ERA+ >175).

For the record, I feel this debate is a useless argument because the Mets were more than a top notch closer away from the World Series when Omar signed K-Rod. We still needed a proven bat in left, a halfway decent catcher and another starting pitcher besides Santana that was reliable, even after the “decent” performances by Ollie and Maine in the previous year.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 14, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

well said, sir.
For the record, I feel this debate is a useless argument because the Mets were more than a top notch closer away from the World Series when Omar signed K-Rod. We still needed a proven bat in left, a halfway decent catcher and another starting pitcher besides Santana that was reliable, even after the "decent" performances by Ollie and Maine in the previous year.

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jul 14, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Totally Agree

My argument is with the idea that closers are of questionable value. The data just doesn’t bear it out.

by millsy on Jul 14, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

You Are Missing Some Top Closers

I’ll give you the 2001 D’backs, the 1995 Braves although Wohlers had his best year and the 1988 Dodgers. You are missing quite a few high quality closers on the other teams.

2003 Marlins – Traded for Ugeth Urbina down the stretch and used him to close down the stretch not Braden Looper.
1997 Marlins – Rob Nen (35 saves) was one of the best closers in baseball for close to a decade.
1987 Twins – Jeff Reardon (31 saves) , one of the best closers ever, closed for them. The Twins won that year with 3 pitchers – Blyleven, Viola and Reardon.
1992 Blue Jays – Tom Henke (34 saves) , one of the top AL closers in his day
1993 Blue Jays – Duane Ward (45 saves) , another top AL closer in his day
1990 Reds – Randy Myers (31 saves), one of top closers ever
1986 Mets – You have to be joking. They had 2 closers in Jesse Orosco (21 saves) and Roger McDowell (14 Wins, 22 saves).

I count 3 championships, not 6, in 25 yrs without a quality closer. I don’t dispute a strong bullpen is important but I don’t see too many teams winning with bullpen by committee. A strong closer clearer makes a big difference.

by millsy on Jul 14, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

by using saves on winning teams

as a basis for being a top notch closer, you are proving nothing.

are those guys top notch closers because they are that much better? or did they get all those saves and was considered amazing closers because they were on teams that kept winning?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 15, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly

This is cherry-picking, not analysis. It is far from surprising that World Series-winning teams tend to have very good players at any position or in any roster slot.

by anonymous on Jul 15, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exaclty.

Using Saves to determine the worth of closers (saves) is presupposing your conclusion.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 15, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i never understood why spellcheck

doesnt work in the title bar

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jul 15, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hold on

I never said that the 92, 93 Jays 90 Reds and the 86 Mets didn’t have a top notch closer. I said that it seemed that a top notch closer was not the sole reason why their bullpens and their teams were successful. You wanted to know the value of a top notch closer. What I wanted to say that for these four teams, the sum of the bullpen arms was more valuable than one top notch closer, NOT that these teams did not have top notch closers.

97 Marlins, Nen had a good year in name only. The number of 35 saves means very little. He was tied for 6th in saves that year. Do you know who lead the league in saves that year? Jeff Shaw, who had 42 saves for the 76-86 Reds. Nen’s WAR (from Baseball reference) was 0.5. He’s ERA+ was 104 for that year. His K/9 was 9.9, which is good, but his BB/9 was 4.9, which is bad. I’m not debating he wasn’t a good closer for his career, but he was far from top notch that year.

87 Twins: Again, Reardon wasn’t dominant. He had a year similar to Nen’s in 1997. ERA+ at 103, K/9 9.3, BB/9 3.1, and WAR of 0.8. Good closer, yes. Not top notch that year.

03 Marlins: While Urbina was traded to shore up the bullpen and he certainly was top notch closer at the time, he was not used that way, at least not immediately after the trade. After trade, he was used in 33 games in the regular season, only finished 11 games and saved 6 of them. In the playoffs, right, Urbina was the clear closer. But, to get them where they were, they relied on Braden Looper to get them there. So, one could argue that this was a case that ensemble was greater than one pitcher alone. And, let’s be honest here, Beckett won that World Series for them.

I still think that having a great set of arms in the bullpen is a lot more valuable than one top notch closer and nothing here has convinced me otherwise (I know you are not arguing that, just making that statement). Can a top notch closer be the missing piece for a championship contender? Absolutely. But, having one great guy and five shitty guys in the bullpen doesn’t help matters either. So, my conclusion would be, a top notch closer does have value, but it means nothing if the team around him is shitty.

Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.

by meigs1414 on Jul 15, 2011 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are looking at results

when you should be looking at process. The question isn’t “have teams that won championships have very good closer?”, it’s “are closers intrinsically more valuable?” or “Is a closer, as we now understand the role, necessary to have success?”

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Jul 15, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Results Are the Ultimate Measurement

Process is important but if it doesn’t lead to the result you want, what good is it?

And here is my point – if at best only 25% of the World Champions of the last quarter century have won one without a quality closer, then it seems to me that there is important value to the position.

I’m not saying you overpay for the position or you don’t need a strong bullpen or other pieces to win a championship.

I am saying the evidence is pretty overwhelming that in order to win a championship you need a quality closer who can handle pressure/big games. Armando Benitez has some pretty impressive stats in 1999 and 2000 including high WARs and low WHIP but he couldn’t handle big game pressue. Until someone comes up with another model that proves you can win championships without a high quality closer I am not going to be sold on closers being overvalued.

by millsy on Jul 18, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Beautifully written

Kudos, and thanks for this

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan, and now found at http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 15, 2011 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Madmen_icon_small
Daniel Murphy And Empty Batting Averages
Gary_carter_small
fxcarden's Nightly Rant! - Vol. I, No. 2 (August, 2011)
Small
A projection of the rest of 2012 using two key stats
Gary_carter_small
fxcarden's Nightly Rant! - Vol. I, No. 1 (July, 2011)
159714144_040c6c1501_small
The Greatest Bison: Frank Grant and the Color Line

Recent FanPosts

Img_1435_small
This Week in Mets Quotes
Small
Game Replays
Small
Santana or Sabathia?
Small
Whats to be done with the 'Pen?
Small
What about Oswalt?
61atehunexl__sl500_aa300__small
This Week in Mets' Overreaction

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

A WIN METHOD (TM) PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

These guys are playing hardball. Ok, we must all mobilize, everybody... you do realize, this means WAR!

(Click here to embiggen)
At 5:30 PM EDT today Starting today at 5:00 PM EDT, witness one of the greatest renderings of visual sound effects ever!

UPDATE 1: My browser has crashed several times in the process from all the rants (FUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!) - as a result, there will instead be 4 or 5 separate installments of fxcarden's Nightly Rants! from 2011, with a similar pattern for the 2012 rants. Take my word for it, when I say that it's for the best. Here's the revised schedule:

Volume 1: 2011
No. 1: Today at 5:00 PM EDT
No. 2: Tomorrow
No. 3: Thursday
No. 4 and No. 5 (?) TBD

UPDATE 2: Vol. I, No. 1 (July, 2011) is now up!
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeautiful colorization of Willie Mays' over-the-shoulder catch. Credit from Beyond the Box Score via Reddit. Embiggen at http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7071/7231074678_3faa94a82b_o.jpg
Frank Francisco is... The Most Interesting Closer In The World embiggen
2013 ALL-STAR GAME(TM) LOGO CONTEST

Major League Baseball has formally announced that Citi Field will be the site of the 2013 All-Star Game. (see video) In light of this, I have decided to launch an All-Star Game logo contest. To help get you started, I provided all of you with a sample All-Star Game logo. (click here to embiggen) If you wish to participate, please enter your submission with an image below, in the comments section. The contest ends on May 31st. I will choose a select number of finalists, and the community will vote on which of those logos is the best one.

Can you create a better logo than the sample logo provided? Then, give it a shot. Good luck to all participants!

Recent FanShots

Quick question regarding ISO
3 "Gap" HRs
Beacon makes it official: No Ottawa EL team in 2013
As Memorial Day Nears, a Single Image Continues to Haunt - New York Times
John Maine signs a minor league deal with the Yankees
Indians Reliever Joe Smith Was Forced To Retreat Because No One Summoned Him From The Bullpen
Marlins looking to trade for outfielder to replace Bonifacio
Ike will not be demoted
Mocking the MLB draft

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Yahoo_full_count

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Madmen_icon_small
Daniel Murphy And Empty Batting Averages
Gary_carter_small
fxcarden's Nightly Rant! - Vol. I, No. 2 (August, 2011)
Small
A projection of the rest of 2012 using two key stats
Gary_carter_small
fxcarden's Nightly Rant! - Vol. I, No. 1 (July, 2011)
159714144_040c6c1501_small
The Greatest Bison: Frank Grant and the Color Line

Recent FanPosts

Img_1435_small
This Week in Mets Quotes
Small
Game Replays
Small
Santana or Sabathia?
Small
Whats to be done with the 'Pen?
Small
What about Oswalt?
61atehunexl__sl500_aa300__small
This Week in Mets' Overreaction

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Endy_small Rob Castellano

Img_1262_small Matthew Artus

Kanye_pekka_small Sam Page

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

Metsstitches_small Eno Sarris

48900_1085732804_4466_n_small Chris McShane

Lg_rocker_ap_small Matthew Callan

Billy_and_daddy_4th_of_july_small Bill Petti

THE NEWS GURUS

Mrmet_small Steve Schreiber

3_small Stephen Schmidt

159714144_040c6c1501_small Pack Bringley

124967042_crop_340x234_small Jeffrey Paternostro