Crazy Talk: Mike Pelfrey as the Closer?

by Eno Sarris on Aug 22, 2011 10:01 AM EDT

Try to imagine Mike Pelfrey as the Mets closer.

Uncomfortable?

You're not alone. But the team still was comfortable enough with the idea to ask the player if he would do it, according to the New York Daily News. Why would they do such a thing.

There's an argument to be made for Pelfrey in the role. Perhaps if he concentrated on just his split-finger and two fastballs, he could be more successful in shorter stints. Or. Maybe going to the bullpen could bump his fastball velocity over 93 MPH and make the rest of his pitches more effective. We know that moving to the bullpen gives you .7 MPH and 17% more strikeouts from past research. Give Pelfrey those things and he'd be better.

But there are plenty of reasons why it's good news that Sandy Alderson vetoed the move eventually. One of the simplest is platoon splits. You need your closer to be able to get out batters of both hands, and Pelfrey's arsenal does not provide for that. Pelfrey has a 4.80 FIP (4.71 K/9, 3.75 BB/9, 42.8 GB%) against lefties and a 3.86 FIP (5.47 K/9, 2.62 BB/9, 54.9 GB%) against right-handers. And his pitches have platoon splits that suggest this sort of thing is predictable.

Beyond that, there's the fact that Mike Pelfrey does not have the swinging strikes to be a closer. He's getting whiffs on 5.6% of his pitches, which is far short of the average (8.6%). Chris Perez is the only (qualified) closer who has a worse whiff rate. Jason Isringhausen (7.3%) gets more whiffs. Kevin Gregg (6.3%) is closest. Yeah, give Pelfrey a few more whiffs in shorter outings and he'd still be among the worst in the business (at best he'd graduate to Jon Rauch and Sergio Mitre territory (6.7% each)).

Just because Pelfrey would be better as a reliever is not a good reason to make him closer. Just because he'd get a few ticks back, doesn't make him a good stopper. Pelfrey doesn't have the pitches or the whiffs to be a good closer. He's an asset, as a starter, while he's cheap.

And even if he transitioned well and was just as good as Bobby Parnell, which is actually doubtful, he has fewer years of control left than Captain Fastball. Moving Pelfrey to closer just doesn't make sense.

Poll

Who would you rather have as the Mets' closer?

Mike Pelfrey

57 votes

Bobby Parnell

238 votes

Anyone off the street

175 votes

470 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 98 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

Jeffrey Paternostro alluded to this in the Applesauce comments

The thing that makes Pelfrey a useful major leaguer is his durability. He eats innings, which is valuable, and he would lose that if brought into a relief role.

by TheBigStapler on Aug 22, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions

yes

his durability is valuable, but if he was to be cut… then that durability is meaningless.

If the plan is to NOT have pelf in the rotation next year, then him being a long man out of the pen could improve his value a little. or at least keep him the same (Value wise) while affording an opportunity to raise the value of a starting slot.

He should not be the closer though… at least not without trying to be a middle reliever and absolutely dominating at it.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions

Why would he be cut?

That’s still taking two steps backwards, and one step forward, at this point.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

cut as in

not in the starting rotation.

At this point, he is the first one out of it imo… I cant imagine us going into next year with the same rotation… and if Dickey, neise and santana are in… that doesnt leave much room for a new pitcher.

what else to do with him? send him to the minors?

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Mike Pelfrey not being in the starting rotation would be two steps backwards, and one step forward

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions

so next season

we have a roation of

santana, pelfry, neise, dickey and a FA or minor leaguer?

That feels like running in place.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Santana, Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, Gee

Assuming Santana comes back, of course.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions

i forgot about Gee

but I think Sandy is going to want to upgrade the rotaiton more then just adding Santana into it to replace caps.

I see that person being replaced as Pelf. I dont think you can even discuss moving any of the others out of it.

(I would love CH or Jackson… and honestly… I would rather give WIllis a shot then Pelf).

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

Like the really funny uncle with a healthy bourbon habit who matches every brilliant Thanksgiving story with one or two ill-advised racist jokes or boob grabs, we’re stuck with Melo. So we might as well learn to love him — quirks and all. http://knickerblogger.net/2011-report-card-carmelo-anthony/

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions

CH = CJ

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Lets try to stay rational here

Dontrelle’s only good year was six years ago, and it was a hr/fb fluke (xfip of 3.68). Every other year he has either been Pelfrey-esque, or flat out horrible.

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by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions

He's had 4 seasons of 2.8+ WAR,

but that was 2003-2006. This year (in 8 starts) Willis has a 3.63 xFIP. There is some potential there.

by EtSuKe on Aug 22, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions

8 starts

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
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by Dandy Salderson on Aug 23, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions

he was doing very good in the minors too

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/10/2354593/dontrelle-willis-cincinnat-reds-comeback-news

In 13 starts for Louisville, Willis pitched 76 innings, struck out 67 batters and — here’s the best part of this story, so far — he walked only 20.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 23, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree that you don't even discuss moving Santana, Dickey, Niese and Gee elsewhere

That said, Sandy is not the kind of GM to make a move simply for the sake of making a move, and doing something. That’s an Omar kind of move.

Some of the available FAs are clearly better than Pelfrey- CJ Wilson, Edwin Jackson, Hiroki Kuroda- and if we had more funds, we’d lobby them hard. Some of the available FAs- Erik Bedard, Brandon Webb- can also be better than Pelfrey, but they have big question marks next to their health and availability. Some available free agents- Jason Marquis, Jeff Francis- are basically Mike Pelfrey, but will be more expensive (in dollars and years) because of reputation, and/or slight skill superiority.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

I can agree with that

but, just to add, I dont think Sandy is the kind of GM to leave a starting rotation that did not preform well almost exactly the same. I think he is going to look to improve it this offseason.

I would gladly take Wilson, Jackson and Kuroda over pelf (As I am sure you would too) and I dont think its out of relm for Sandy to go after one of em. Even with Reyes. I dont think he is going to waste money on the bench and bullpen (but rather fill them with cheap alternatives that we either already have or will get) and adding one SP to the team would be a big improvement.

IF that happens, Pelf is the one out… which means that he is either cut, sent to the minors, or put in the pen. I think if he goes to the pen, he could be better then replacement level.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 23, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Why couldn't we trade Pelfrey is that scenario?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Aug 23, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

well yeah

i mean, if you wanna make sense… that seems teh way to go.

I guess I just find it hard we would get anything for him. I dont think cutting him is a realistic thing.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 23, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

If we had a guarantee that we had enough money to persue one of them, I agree, Pelfrey is the odd-man out

He’d likely get traded- being cut, there’s no reason to do that, I don’t agree that he’d be better coming out of the bullpen, and with one season left with us, sending him to the Minors really wouldn’t help us much.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 23, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Santana, Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, Gee

Assuming Santana comes back, of course. You get rid of Pelfrey however you do that (DFA, trade, bullpen, Minor Leagues, whatever), and who fills the hole? A FA? Look at the FA list. Outside of CJ Wilson and (arguably) Mark Buehrle- both of whom are likely going to re-up with the team they’re currently on- there’s nobody arguably better- either based on results, actual amount of time likely to play, or the two combined- to justify signing them for a market value contract. Chris Capuano? Jeff Francis? Edwin Jackson? Jason Marquis? Dontrelle Willis? A Minor League promotion? Do we think Chris Schwinden, or Mark Cahoon, or Dylan Owen, or Pat Misch, or whoever else, can be successful at the MLB level for an entire season?

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I have always put a lot of trust into Baseball America

I find them to be very accurate.

No. 1 Starter John Maine
No. 2 Starter Oliver Perez
No. 3 Starter Mike Pelfrey
No. 4 Starter Deolis Guerra
No. 5 Starter Kevin Mulvey

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
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by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Ha ha, that's pretty funny

Also, Greg Veloz at 2B and Francisco Pena at C.

by TheBigStapler on Aug 22, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Mike Pelfrey, No. 3 starter

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 1:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Yeah, they really nailed 1 out of the 5

by anonymous on Aug 22, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

They're at the mendoza line.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Buwahahahahahahahahaha!

hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha

at number two

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Aug 22, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Edwin Jackson is pretty good

by EtSuKe on Aug 22, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Edwin Jackson is also costly

He’s going into his first year of free agency after three consecutive years of being solid. After CJ Wilson, he might be the best FA pitcher on the market this season- he’s still young, doesn’t have health issues, has shown consistency in his solid-if-unspectacular career.

Come to think of it, Jackson is Pelfrey’s ceiling, I think.

But, yeah, I confused him with Edwar Ramirez. Whenever I think Edwin Jackson, I think Edwar Ramirez.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Jackson's ERA has been higher than his peripherals the last 2 years

so there is potential to get a bargain on him. His stuff (94-95 mph fastball) probably raises his price though.

by EtSuKe on Aug 22, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions

no he is not

there is a reason why he has been traded more than half a dozen times. I do NOT get the love for the guy, and don’t throw stats at me. I’ve seen him enough both live and on TV to think of him as Mike Pelfrey 2.0.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Aug 23, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Nah, look at his stats

He’s decent. I wouldn’t mind having him on my team.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 23, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Hasn't Buehrle indicated he might retire?

I remember reading somewhere that he was considering hanging them up when his current contract ends.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 22, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't recall hearing that, but if he does retire, it is, in effect, the same as him re-signing with the White Sox

A pitcher the Mets can’t have for 2012.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions

If he does return, I have this feeling he'd stay where he is.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 22, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions

I remember that.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Aug 22, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions

or just cut cut

I guess a trade is an option too.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions

I doubt he will be prematurely removed from the rotation

but then again, this IS the Mets we’re talking about, and Collins not coming out to say “Parnell is the guy” ….who knows

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Aug 22, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions

unfortunately

they are some of the worst innings being pitched in the majors

I LIKE IKE!

by astromets on Aug 22, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I find TC's lack of faith in Parnell

disturbing.

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
@RADickey43: Dont you understand, the beard grew me.

by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I find his dedicated faith in Willie Harris and Izzy equally disturbing

by Shevshevy on Aug 22, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

This

What is Harris doing for the Mets that Satin can’t do equally well, if not much better?

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 22, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Play OF, bat LH

but that’s it.

by TheBigStapler on Aug 22, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions

What's a little weird to me

is that TC is wading into waters that go beyond a manager’s responsibility. I don’t mind TC brainstorming and thinking up ideas, but shouldn’t he be running the big ones (converting a long-time starter to a closer) by the front office before bringing them up to players and/or the media? When you have the manager saying one thing and the GM another, it just perpetuates the MSM stereotype of the Mets as this bumbling, inept organization. I know that manager needs to have a certain autonomy, but when it comes to player development and whether a guy is a starter or closer, that’s really outside the scope of a manager’s job.

by dontstopbelieving on Aug 22, 2011 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs

Rec'd, thanks for saying this

This seems like one of the first hints of the old days’ disorganization and unclear allocation of responsibilities that we’ve seen under the Alderson regime.

by anonymous on Aug 22, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Just another reason added to the surprising heap that makes me hope Collins' time here is very short.

Chip Hale 2013!

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Aug 22, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Terry Collins should be fired

That’s it, I’m sorry, but the campaign must be started.

We all know, at the end, Sandy isn’t going to allow Terry to put Mike Pelfrey in the bullpen and close- especially since he’s not suited for it, as evidenced above. This is still bone-headed, and shows a lack of, well, baseball smarts that is disconcerting when coupled with his regular gaffes as a manager.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions

this is not a fireable offense

pinch hitting shin hu in critical moments is.

this just strikes me as an idea that didn’t get thought out and got said unfiltered.

The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
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by Cory Braiterman on Aug 22, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Not being a smart baseball mind is a fireable offense,

and this stinks of not being a smart baseball move, even just entertaining it. Couple it with the variety of other bad baseball moves this season, and there’s a distinct pattern.

I agree with your analysis, that it probably was a crazy idea that got said out loud and wasn’t filtered out through the proper clubhouse/media methods, but the fact that it was being brought up is disconcerting.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Who is "Shin Hu"?

by anonymous on Aug 22, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Aug 22, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Traid da core for Joe Maddon

by Shevshevy on Aug 22, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions

Smart money is he isn't going anywhere for at least 2 more full seasons

We really want to make ourselves sick over this? I’m of the camp that no manager would be very much better, and it’s a big waste of agita.

by Pack Bringley on Aug 22, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

The reason for agita is what dontstopbelieving said above

The potential problem here is that Collins seems to feel increasingly free to talk through his hat about stuff that’s not his responsibility. The Mets have a lot of smart people running the front office, working on development and allocating talent to fill out the roster. Terry Collins is not one of them. He needs to do his own job and stop using his job as a bully pulpit/brainstorming session about Sandy’s.

by anonymous on Aug 22, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Maybe

I’d want to see this play out a little longer. After all it’s an unsourced leak, and I haven’t seen indications heretofore of organizational strife.

by Pack Bringley on Aug 22, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Chip Hale!

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Aug 22, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions

uh........................

a contact pitcher as your closer?

thanks, but no thanks.

i’m hard pressed to think of anyone on the mets roster i’d less like to see than Pelf as closer.

The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com

by Cory Braiterman on Aug 22, 2011 10:46 AM EDT reply actions

Izzy

In 2012?

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 22, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions

Igarashi.

"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 22, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Bear with me on this one...

Over the course of the season, there has seemed to be a disconnect between what Collins and Alderson have in mind for the club, or at the very least Collins has his own idea of how to use the players he’s been given. First, we had Vest-Watch ‘11 as K-Rod was being put in to close game after game, whether it was a save situation or not. Then towards the time right before Rodriguez got traded, Alderson even admitted to not understanding some of Collins’ usage of him in those late inning situations that didn’t call for your best relief pitcher.

That’s one instance. Another would be him stating that Murphy should play the OF next year after he got hurt playing 2B. I take that as a knee jerk reaction mostly, but it seems to fit the mold as that really has to be Alderson’s call depending on what moves he wants to make or not make in regards to the OF, or any other position. Then he suggests Beato could be a starter, which even Beato didn’t really care for.

Also, we kind of all agree that the RF job seems to be Duda’s job to lose. But instead of playing him there he’s had him almost exclusively at 1B, when we have LHB and RHB options on the bench for that position. Now, we have this instance of testing out Pelfrey as a closer.

I like Collins a lot, and he’s brought a never quit mentality to the club that was sorely needed. But on the other hand, there have been a lot of head scractching moves/ideas that have been presented by him over the season’s entirety.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs

Good summary

All in all, that is a package I can live with, although Ill admit to my expectations being pretty damn low thanks to Jerry.

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
@RADickey43: Dont you understand, the beard grew me.

by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Me too, somewhat

I just don’t like the fact that some of his ideas don’t seem to be things that would coincide with what the FO is looking to do. A little more cohesion would be good for next season.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes

But at least he is not a national laughing stock. I have low expectations.

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
@RADickey43: Dont you understand, the beard grew me.

by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions

I understand

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions

indeed Dandy

we went from “Meh” (randolph) to “clown” to “bad”.

so we settled for bad….but I’d rather have TC than Tony LaRussa.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Aug 22, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I miss Willie

And, holy crap, looking at his Fangraphs page for the first time, he was a damn fine player, of which a HoF case could be built, in theory. Roberto Alomar was seen more-or-less as a sure-thing Hall-of-Famer, and was inducted into the Hall-of-Famer with 68.0 WAR. Willie Randolph’s 67.9 WAR is on tenth of a point behind him.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Ummm what disconnect?

Here’s how you know there’s no disconnnect:

The Mets last year were in the bottom 3rd in the majors in walk rate.
This year? 3rd (Behind the Yankees and Red Sox).

Now you know Alderson had something to do with that and so must have Collins since he works more closely with the guys.

Stop making something of nothing. A manager can wonder about different possibilities without there being any problem.

Writer at Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times
Pitchf/x enthusiast.

by garik16 on Aug 22, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not

And the walk rate is impressive and should really be commended. But a team’s general approach at the plate is more indicative of the hitting coach than the manager himself. It all goes hand in hand in the long run, so I’ll agree with you on that for argument’s sake. But how do you refute the other things I’ve mentioned? Like using Rodriguez so much, and Alderson admitting he didn’t agree with how much he was used?

I’m not even all that down on Collins. It’s just to a rash of weird suggestions/ideas that don’t seem to coincide with what the FO is looking to do. But, if you don’t agree with me that’s fine.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

The job of an MLB hitting coach

Is to get coffee for the manager.

Thus quoth The Book:

Alderson picked up the phone and said “The walks go up or you’re fired”. The walks went up.

@metsflu: Why did you decide to grow a beard?
@RADickey43: Dont you understand, the beard grew me.

by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Ok then

I thought Hudgens had a purpose. Sorry.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

The Josh Stinson thing also

Collins is now publicly advocating for Stinson in the pen, which is just odd – it’s not like Stinson is setting the world afire in AA. I’m getting the impression (and this is pure speculation, admittedly) that maybe Terry has gone to Sandy a couple of times to lobby for some help (particularly in the pen), and Sandy’s said, more or less, “sorry, but you’re stuck with what you have for now” – so now Terry’s taking his case to the media. If that’s a case, it’s a problem, and Sandy should be sitting him down. Hopefully he’s just frustrated and blowing off some steam in the midst of a tough stretch, but it’s not a good thing.

by dontstopbelieving on Aug 22, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions

This

is another example. I don’t really get it to be honest. But I hope it’s not a case of Terry taking to the media to get results. That’s never the right way to go about things.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

It's also a consequence

of ridding the team of free-swingers like Frenchy, Jacobs, Barajas, and Hessman.

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by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 22, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

That seems like a really weird claim to me

The Mets are walking more this year, therefore Alderson and Collins are in perfect harmony? How does that make sense?

by anonymous on Aug 22, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Relative to Jerry, Collins is an improvement

So that’s something. And he doesn’t throw his players under the bus, and he seems like a decent guy.

But the bunting (see Thole, yesterday, as the latest example) is madness; the bullpen management is folly; the consideration of 2012 et seq. is non-existent. Maybe “all managers” think this way. Well, memo to the FO: Here’s a market inefficiency. Go out and find a manager who understands process and outcome, and maybe pick up 2-3 extra wins.

by Ownbey4Mex on Aug 22, 2011 11:12 AM EDT reply actions

I can't drill him too hard on the pen management

The pen is just bad. However, always using Willie Harris as the first bat off the bench. (esp. now with Baxter on the roster) is slowly driving me insane. He seems to be good at the soft skills, though.

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by Jeffrey Paternostro on Aug 22, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes

I’d rather see a RHB coming up against a RHP than to see Willie Harris being trotted out there anymore. You know what you have in Harris, it’s time to see what someone else can give you as a PH and spot starter. The goal is to still win games, and I guess that’s why Collins is more agreeable to putting the veteran Harris out there before the unknowns like Baxter. But at this point, putting Harris out there isn’t your best way to win games.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Coming off a season where Harris hit .183/.291/.362,

it looks to me like there was never a time this year where putting Harris out there was the best way to win games. If you were talking about 2007-2009 Willie Harris, then sure. But this version of Willie Harris is shitty offensively, plain and simple.

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by Steve Schreiber on Aug 22, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

You have to take into account, with that batting line, his BABIP was an absurd .199

Raise that like .100 points, to around his career levels, and those numbers become tolerable.

That said, his BABIP is at one of it’s highest levels in his career, and he’s sucking it up. That’s indicative of, well, the fact that he sucks.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Sure but

he was also striking out at a career high rate of 22.9% last year and that rate has only increased even more this year, to a nearly unacceptable 25.1%. His BABIP was low last year but it’s bounced up to .325 this year and he’s still only hitting a woeful .237 (and his power has completely abandoned him). To me, that’s a sign of a hitter who’s career is toast…not the sign of a hitter who’s unlucky.

I think it was worthwhile to bring him in on a minor league deal and see if last year was just a BABIP fluke but by May, I think it was pretty obvious that when he does hit the ball (which is pretty rare), he just doesn’t hit it all that hard. He’s awful with a bat in his hands these days.

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by Steve Schreiber on Aug 22, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions

Right. Like I said,

his BABIP is at one of it’s highest levels in his career, and he’s sucking it up. That’s indicative of, well, the fact that he sucks.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree

Just trying to come from an angle where it makes sense to Collins to use him as oppose to maybe Baxter as the no. 1 lefty PH.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions

The pen is hideous

That is on Sandy not Terry. I agree that Terry’s a dope, but he hasn’t overworked anyone like Jerry and Willie did. He did not put together this miserable shit stain pen. He should be pounded for all the bunting and all the at bats he’s giving to Willie Harris. Then again Sandy signed him and really should have kicked him to the curb months ago.

by graves9 on Aug 22, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm 50-50 on this.

If they are going to try it, do it for the next 5 weeks.

Otherwise, no.

A better question is = who replaces him in the rotation.

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Aug 22, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions

Schwinden? Mischter Mischer?

Bleh…stick with Pelf in the rotation. I’d rather that heartache be all at once, spread out 5 days than every other night for an inning apiece late in a game.

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by Steve Schreiber on Aug 22, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

Next season, even if Crappy Pelfrey shows up for the entire year, we know what we’re getting: Around 200 IP, with an ERA between 4.00 and 5.00, and an xFIP between 4.30 and 4.45, just like it’s been every single year he’s been a full-time starter. He’s gonna cost around $6 million or so in arbitration, but a similar-profiling guy on the open market is going to cost more. Can a guy like Schwinden, or Misch, or Cahoon, or whoever else pitch better, or as effective, for cheaper? Cheaper, yes. Everything else, though, is up in the air.

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Logically

Everything you saying makes sense. I’m guessing the emotion, or gut feeling, of getting rid of Pelfrey is that you can’t imagine any pitcher we call up being worse than him. The reality is that there could actually be worse pitchers out there than Pelfrey. We’ve just dealt with him so long as fans that I think many are ready to cut bait with him and deal with the uncertainty of a fresh face.

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Thankfully, seemingly, we don't have a front office that operates on emotion and gut feeling anymore

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Very true

by MetsCity on Aug 22, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions

This

the only reason we are even having this conversation is that Pelfrey was once thought to be a front-of-the-rotation starter. People are still anchoring on that despite the fact that Pelfrey has demonstrated what he is beyond most reasonable doubt: a durable, league average starter.

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by dcrockett17 on Aug 22, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions

If the payroll is really tight this offseason

It may behoove Sandy to non-tender Pelfrey and find a more effective way to spend $6 million. He’s demonstrated that he’s fan of signing scrap-heap pitchers who are coming off of injury.

You can sign 3 or 4 pitchers for $6 million and probably get 200 total innings among them without having all your eggs in one basket.

by TheBigStapler on Aug 22, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Do we know what the budget is?

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by Dandy Salderson on Aug 22, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Nobody does

there’s been some unsubstantiated speculation that it could be as low as $120 million (it’s $143 right now).

by TheBigStapler on Aug 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Very true

On the scrap heap, there aren’t many pitchers who are going to come for cheap, I don’t think. Looking at the list, there really aren’t too many guys who are working their way back from the brink. Are we going to ink a deal with Chris Young again? I hope not, given his propensity to not stay healthy. Chris Capuano? I think he’s proven enough that he’ll get a deal in the same range that Pelfrey will get. Brandon Webb? The name alone is probably enough to get him a few million, like it did Ben Sheets last season.

The most likely, if you want to go that route, are Scott Olsen, Chien-Ming Wang, Dontrelle Willis, Jason Marquis, and Jeff Francis. Of those, Olsen doesn’t really have a track record of being effective, Willis is who knows at this point in his career, Wang, Francis, and Marquis are basically Pelfrey but older and with health concerns.

In the Minors, there are the Misches, and the Schwindens, and the Cahoons and the Owens, and all of them, but do you think, regardless of how you plug them in and out of the rotation and/or the team, they’ll combine to be as effective as ‘Crappy Pelfrey’ has been? I’m highly doubtful on that, given Misch is really a AAAA player, Cahoon and Owen kind of struggled in the highest Minor League levels they’ve played at, and Schwinden has, so far, only like 130 innings of success at AAA?

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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 22, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

It's a mystery...

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by CoachKennyBuford on Aug 22, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions

Interesting idea

With added velocity and being allowed to focus mainly on his fastballs and splitter he could enjoy some success out of the pen. He hasn’t been good early in games, so I don’t think his problem is tiring out or getting exposed later in games; but I don’t think his trouble in the first few innings would necessarily mean he couldn’t be an effective relief pitcher. He would likely approach this role differently, not worrying about pacing himself or mixing in as many secondary pitches.

by MatthewM11 on Aug 22, 2011 2:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

except knowing Big Pelf

he’d still stink up the joint one way or the other. he is what he is, a useful pitcher but nothing more than that. he’s gone as soon as some prospects (knock on wood) zoom through the minors.

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by feslenraster on Aug 22, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions