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Amazin' Avenue Book Club: Moneyball, Chapter Eight

A chapter a night is the plan this week. The tale of Scott Hatteberg is told in "Chapter Eight: Scott Hatteberg, Pickin' Machine". The former big league first baseman/catcher receives fourth billing in the Moneyball movie and is played by Chris Pratt of Parks And Recreation fame.

Star-divide

This is one of the more human-elementy chapters of Moneyball. Outside of some talk about strikeout-to-walk ratio for hitters, discussion of numbers is scarce. Hatteberg was identified in Chapter Seven as one of the players brought in to replace Jason Giambi. As the seemingly embellished story goes, Hatteberg became a free agent at midnight on December 20, 2001, and Paul DePodesta was on the phone with Hatteberg's agent at 12:01 AM. Hatteberg signs with the A's and Billy Beane tells him he will play first base. One problem: Hatteberg has only played catcher in his career.

The story of A's infield coach, and current Texas Rangers manager, Ron "Wash" Washington teaching Hatteberg a new position is the highlight of the chapter. Wash isn't too keen on sabermetrics but is good at his job, which often entails turning the heavy-hitting but ungraceful players Beane acquires into passable fielders. Commenting on his experiences with these players, Wash says:

I seen some sh*t. I can tell you that.

Wash's strategy for transforming Hatteberg into a first sacker is to build up his confidence. Not a bad word is spoken about Hatteberg's horrendous defense as he learns at spring training 2002. Gradually, he improves at the position. It is at the easy end of the defensive spectrum, after all. Whenever he picks a throw out of the dirt, Wash yells "Pickin' machine!" from the dugout. It sounds like a story out of little league -- coach teaching player using positive reinforcement and sideline screaming -- but it works. And Beane has his high-walk, low-strikeout, plate discipline hero in the lineup everyday.

Dan Feinstein, the young man in charge of the A's video room, was mentioned in Chapter Seven but receives additional coverage in Chapter Eight. He has a testy exchange with A's outfielder/first baseman John Mabry, in which the two discuss facing Jamie Moyer. Feinstein offers advice but Mabry has none of it, asking "Have you ever faced a major league pitcher?" The video man has an ally in Hatteberg, as the two favor a patient approach at the plate. Feinstein has moved on up in the baseball world and is now Director of Baseball Operations for the Tampa Bay Rays.

Finally, here is a nice process vs. results quote from Hatteberg:

Here I go 0-for-3 with two lineouts and a walk and the general manager comes by my locker and says 'Hey, great at bats.'

Mets-centric appearances/mentions in Chapter Eight:

  • David Cone, former Met
  • Ron Washington, former Mets minor leaguer and coach

Discussion questions:

1. In general, which do you prefer: a team of heavy hitters/poor fielders or a team of light hitters/strong fielders? Why? Assume similar overall value for each team.

2. Ron Washington's success as an A's coach helped him secure the position of Rangers manager. Do any of the Mets current big league coaches strike you as future managers? This includes Dave Hudgens, Dan Warthen, Mookie Wilson, Chip Hale, Ken Oberkfell and Jon Debus.

3. Here is a picture of actor Minor Watson, cigar in hand, who portrayed Dodgers GM Branch Rickey in The Jackie Robinson Story:

Minorwatson_medium

Here is Brad Pitt, hanging out in the A's video room, who portrays Billy Beane in Moneyball:

Brad-pitt-as-billy-beane-in-moneyball-2011_medium

Which actor would you prefer play you in a movie? Serious question.

4. Do you think you would enjoy working for a Major League Baseball team in a similar capacity as Feinstein with the A's? Think a video room analyst or a low level scout. Long hours, low pay.

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Just curious

But why are on the hale bandwagon? What have you seen that makes you believe he would be a good manager?

A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind.-Professor James Moriarty
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.- Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

by Blame-everyone-else on Sep 20, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

First of all, I started the Hale bandwagon.

As to why, his process seems to be top-notch, he uses computers, he seems to know his players well (he remembered Carter from his Diamondback rookie-ball days), and in the interviews I’ve seem with him, he speaks well.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Sep 20, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Light hitters/strong fielders

I might be totally misunderstanding some of the things I’ve read, but in a low run scoring environment, each offensive run is worth more, so the light hitting/strong fielding team increases the value of the minimal offense it can provide. On the flip side, a strong hitting/poor fielding team creates a higher run scoring environment, decreasing the value of their own strength, so I guess I think that the light hitting team would win more in the long run, even given similar total WARs (assuming here that value=WAR).

by yellomellojello on Sep 20, 2011 1:57 AM EDT reply actions  

If the teams have similar WARs

they have similar value and worth.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Sep 20, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny thing about Scott Hatteberg

He was never actually very good. Look at his fangraphs page. Sure, he was not much of a defender but he wasn’t exactly a slugger either.

by TheBigStapler on Sep 20, 2011 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

That is the point

He was someone who doesnt appear to be very good, like many of the players on the A’s at the time.

by Dandy Salderson on Sep 20, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bean got only one very good season out of him and that is about it

So its not really about finding value with an exacting eye. It smell more like luck.

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by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong

They brought him in because of metrics such as pitches per at bat – things that dont come up in traditional stats, and also dont come up in many advanced stats. Lewis explains it a lot better than I can.

by Dandy Salderson on Sep 21, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

So my eyes do deceive me. He wasn't less than 2 WAR player in subsequent years with the A's

He was pretty much replacement level. The A’s got one good season out of him. If we are going to highlight good moves, lets also note the misses. One good year out of three and Hatteberg never touches a 3 WAR ever again in his career. He got lucky.

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by Coolpapabell on Sep 21, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fangraphs WAR

1. Values Hatteberg’s four years with the As at $9.8m, at a cost of $7.5m
2. The whole point, again, is that WAR doesnt measure every metric that the A’s were looking at
3. +2 WAR is an arbitrary line. Being between 1 and 2 WAr is not “pretty much replacement level”. Zero is exactly replacement level.
4. I have no idea what having one better year out of four has to do with luck. He was in the decline phase of his career, and there are always fluctuations.
5. The whole point of Michael Lewis focusing on Hatteberg is that he was not a key contributor. It is easy to point to Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Tejada, Chavez, etc. Lewis was focusing on the small stories that most people – even close observers – didnt notice. Could you imagine if the 2006-9 Mets had a bunch of “lucky” 1-2 WAR players making less than $1m behind the core?

by Dandy Salderson on Sep 21, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

it wasn’t just Hatteberg that was brought in to replace Giambi. It was Hatteberg, Justice, and anther guy.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.

by Ogre39666 on Sep 21, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Discussion Answers

1. Seeing how I was a light hitting slick fielding Highschool and College player, (which they are not) I will take the great fielders. I love the artistry of the glove work.

2. I think Chip Hale could be a good manager. I really like his preperation. I hear he does a thorough job of scouting his opponents. Obbie has been around so long, I hope he gets a gig somewhere. He certainly paid his dues.

3. I have never seen Minor Watson act, but I will take him over Brad Pitt, even though I look nothing like those two guys.

4.I would not mind shoveling sh*t for a bit for a major league club. I hear they get some sweet gifts from the players. If I have a decent amount saved already, I would take that job. Its not so bad provided that you stay away from bookies and report all of your earnings to the IRS.

Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps To our website Walk
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by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2011 10:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting thoughts and funny Qoutes

+ A-Rod was a douche back then too
+ Moyer was ancient back then too
+ Nine Scott Hattebergs generate 940-950 runs, but probably surrender far more than that on defense
+ Tejada and Chavez provided runs and defense
+ That year Hatteberg posted a around 3 WAR that year, then nothing higher since then.

Qoutes:
“He’d do all of the things that cause a fan in the stand to say `That kid is horseshit!` and what do that fan know? He don’t no nothin! But he’d be right. That kid was horseshit.”

“Oh shit its Don Mattingly”

“Once your hole has been exposed, you have to make an adjustment or the whole league will get you out. Any pitcher who can’t exploit that hole isn’t in the big leagues.”

Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps To our website Walk
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by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2011 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

My thoughts:

1. I prefer the offense, all things considered. It’s frustrating watching that team that can’t score any runs. Just look at the Giants this year. It doesn’t matter how good your pitching is if you can’t score any runs to back them up.

2. I would guess that Hale gets a job first and possibly Obie at some point, too. I kind of think Hale is the Mets next manager, should Collins falter. Teufel and Backman are the obvious names in the minors, though I don’t see either getting that chance here. I kind of wonder where each will be next year, though.

3. Considering Minor Watson died in the 60’s, I’d have to choose Pitt. I wouldn’t want a dead man or a zombie playing me in a movie.

4. I would take that job in a second. I make little money as it is…might as well make little money doing something involved with baseball, right?

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.

by Steve Schreiber on Sep 20, 2011 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

A zombie GM would be kind of cool

They do Zombie Jane Austin, why not Zombie Steve Schreiber SABR GM?

Dear friends, please temporarily stop your footsteps To our website Walk
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by Coolpapabell on Sep 20, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The quotes of the chapter

“The odd thing about Mattingly’s sermon is that he himself never drew all that many walks.”

“Billy Beane thought himself out of the big leagues. Scott Hatteberg thought himself into them.”

“This is why poor hitters make the best hitting coaches. They don’t try to make you like them, because they sucked.”

“The Boston Red Sox were obsessed with outcomes; he with process.”

“Had (Hatteberg & Moyer) taken a different approach to the game, neither would’ve lasted long in the big leagues.”

What's that about?

by Brian. on Sep 20, 2011 3:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

The Chapter questions

1. I would prefer the heavy hitting/poor fielders over the light hitting/strong fielders. I would lean this way because I feel offense tends to be more stable than defense. A great hitter/ poor fielder tends to be more consistent over time than the great fielder/poor hitter IMO.

2. I think Chip Hale & Dave Hudgens could be future managers. I think this because they seem to have a grasp on the analytical side of the game & the players seem to listen and respond to what Hale/Hudgens are telling them.

3. I honestly don’t know. I’m a skinny black guy who wears glasses so anybody in that mold is suitable I guess.

4. I would enjoy working in a similar capacity to what Feinstein worked as in Oakland. For starters, I’d be working in a field I enjoy(baseball). Also, I’d get to interact with knowledgable and successful management types like DePo and Beane. If I were to do a good job, that would increase my chances at finding work in a higher capacity in MLB since other organizations would recognize my work & Beane, DePo & others would probably put in a good word for me if I were to seek employment with another team. And lastly, & probably most importantly, jobs are hard to come by these days! Any work is better than no work no matter how low the pay.

What's that about?

by Brian. on Sep 20, 2011 4:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The Chapter Questions

1. Poor hitting fielders, if for no other reason than that they’ll work for less than half as much. And they remind me of me.

2. I would love to see Dan Warthen as a manager somewhere…anywhere…else.

3. Brad Pitt. Are you kidding? And we even look alike.

4. Yes, for the reasons given by Brian and Steve Schreiber above.

by Curtis3331 on Sep 20, 2011 10:45 PM EDT reply actions  

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