Possible starter conversions for closer or just excellent relievers
The bullpen was pretty bad this year going by measurables such as ERA and WPA. In terms of more "true value" oriented stats such as FIP, we can hope for a bounce-back year for this BP next year (from horribad to mediocre), but in terms of real world results, they were pretty poor as a group.
Of course, our bullpen isn't really a serious issue for next year, considering that it is a rebuilding year, so that signing a Papelbon and/or Bell is pointless and unlikely, as marginal wins are fairly worthless next year.
In the interest of rebuilding, however, we are in the business of paying for wins in 2013 and beyond. Ideally, we should use the year to audition as many young relievers as we can. This, of course, includes closer of the future, as well as setup man of the future and so on and so forth -- relievers of the coming dynasty, if you will. I'm going to use "closer" in this post instead of what I really mean, which is "elite reliever," because it's shorter.
One trope for the sabermetrically inclined is that an average or even poor starter can be a closer, due to the difference in usage. I don't actually know whether that is a fact, but seems to be anecdotally true. So with that in mind, I looked at some starters for closer material.
Dillon Gee is an obvious conversion project, but fortunately he is probably too valuable as a starter for us to convert to a relief role. Schwinden to the bullpen is likely, he doesn't exactly seem like the making of a future closer, but no doubt he should get a chance to prove himself. Santana, Niese and Dickey are too valuable as starters. Pelfrey is arguable.
There are a number of reasons why Mike Pelfrey should not be converted to relief, but the easiest one is simply that he's arb-eligible again this year as a starter, which means he will be significantly overpaid if he's converted. Basically, if you're considering converting Mike Pelfrey to relief (a role he may or may not be good at) it makes much more sense to simply non-tender him and sign a closer with the roughly 6M you save or trade him for a closer.
The main problem with Mike Pelfrey as an elite reliever (aka closer) is the lack of K's. Other than that, it seems he would be a good conversion candidate -- he has a decent walk rate, throws hard and he's fairly young. Thus, I decided to look for other team's Mike Pelfreys who have K rates above 6. That is, they throw fairly hard (>90mph on average) and are fairly young (<30), but are also fairly terrible (>5 ERA), which would make both a conversion and a trade somewhat reasonable. Mind you, I don't think this is the only way to address the bullpen, just one way. It's helpful to identify these candidates for AAOP purposes, of course.
In a totally unscientific manner, I went through fangraphs and checked each teams starters. I didn't qualify these for IP or starts, I just looked at starting numbers. Here are a list of fairly hard throwing, fairly young starters who had rough years in 2011. There's sort of a mix of prospects, non-prospect 5th starters, and failed prospects. I've put parenthetical notes for some of them -- org prospect rankings come from Fangraphs. There might be others out there and I may have munged up the list (feel free to post updates and corrections in the comments.)
| Pitchers > 5ERA, >6K/9, > 90.5MPH AvgFBv, <30YO | ||
| Angels | Garret Richards(org 5th in 2011) | |
| Astros | JA Happ | |
| Blue Jays | Dustin McGowan | |
| Cardinals | Lance Lynn (org 7th in 2010) | |
| Giants | Dan Runzler (org 4th in 2010) | |
| Indians | Zach Mcallister (org 3rd in 2009) | |
| Mariners | Charlie Furbush | |
| Marlins | Chris Volstad | |
| Orioles | Jake Arrieta (99 overall in 2010 BA), | |
| Pirates | Ross Ohlendorf | |
| Reds | Edinson Volquez | |
| Rockies | Esmil Rodgers | |
| Royals | Kyle Davies (free agent 2012), Daniel Duffy (org 7 in 2011) | |
| Tigers | Jacob Turner (org 1 in 2010) | |
| Twins | Brian Duensing | |
| White Sox | Zack Stewart | |
| Others of interest who missed the cut but for whatever reason are interesting | ||
| Blue Jays | Brandon Morrow (4.98 ERA) | |
| Nationals | Tom Gorzelanny (4.01 ERA) | |
| Pirates | James McDonald(4.28 ERA) | |
| Red Sox | Andrew Miller (5.86 K/9) | |
| Reds | Homer Bailey (4.32 ERA) | |
| Twins | Francisco Liriano (4.77 ERA) | |
| Yankees | Phil Hughes (5.63 K/9)
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The Reds may have given up on Volquez and are likely to try to move him. Other teams might have better offers based on his excellent K/9 and arm strength -- even if he has no command. He is coming off Tommy John, so the Reds might be hoping the command returns, but they were rumored to be shopping him before the injury, so I think they'll listen to offers now.
Liriano is an interesting case. He'll want to start so that when he hits FA he'll make a ton of money, but there might not be much of a market if he continues to put up 4.50+ era's. He's had some injuries and he stands to make at least 6M in arbitration this year. The Twins will probably trade him this off-season, but will he want to relieve? More importantly what will it take to acquire him?
Phil Hughes is intriguing. I could see the Yankees at least considering non-tendering him, even if his most recent year depresses his arbitration raise. But the Yankees are made of money anyways, so it's unlikely they'll really do it or even consider trading him at his lowest value -- p.s. it's nice to have money.
Davies is a free agent and I doubt he'll go anywhere that he doesn't get to start. Duensing is a middle relief type already with some spot starts. Andrew Miller is terrible, even in relief, but he does throw hard for a lefty, and he's almost certain to be non-tendered. Happ will definitely be tendered and it's arguable whether he's a failed starter. With another season like this one, Happ might be available next year.
Brandon Morrow is probably the best closer candidate out there with his ridiculous K rate. I think he's a good 3rd-4th starter with future upside, but he would be a fantastic, lights-out closer right now. It would take too much to get him and even if we did, he'd be too valuable to us as a starter anyways. James McDonald and Bailey come next but all three are probably still in the long term plans of their respective organizations as starters. Still, I would at least call to see if we can buy low on one of them.
Gorzelanny was a non-tender candidate last year which is why he was traded, but I have a feeling the Nats will hang on to him this year, as he's been an excellent reliever and serviceable starter.
Everybody else is a still basically a prospect, even if they aren't highly touted like Zack Stewart. Not sure what it would take to get a Furbush, Rogers or Stewart. They're pre-arb and throw fairly hard. Despite a lack of established success at the MLB level, I would think a team would have to be severely mentally handicapped to move them.
So basically the realistic targets this year are Volstad, Ohlendorf and McGowan. Volquez and Liriano are also possibilities simply because they'll most likely be moved this off-season, but the price-tag may be too much. My favorites are McGowan and Volquez. I could see either of them as dominant closers.
Now that you know who some candidates are, are you in favor of starter conversions for the BP? If you are, which do you think would make the best reliever? Have I missed someone you think is obtainable and the closer of our future dynasty?
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What do you mean
when you say that Gee is too valuable as a starter? His peripherals make me want to puke my guts out. He won’t last in the bigs if he doesn’t change some things, specifically getting the walks and home runs under control and finding ways to succeed without having to rely on a minuscule BABIP. If a move to the bullpen could facilitate that, I’d be all for it.
Hmm, maybe shouldve been more clear
I just meant you need 5 starters and Gee is less bad than Schwinden. I have no problems moving Gee to the pen but you’d have to find another starter — just not what this post is about. This one is about identifying what else is out there.
by robotoverlord on Sep 22, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh...
Well, I think the Gee is less bad than Schwinden part is debatable (right now I’d say they’re more or less equal), as you can probably tell I really don’t like Gee, and if I sounded a tad edgy well that’s probably why. As the year has worn on, he’s increasingly looked more and more replacement-level. My preference is Schwinden showing enough to win the fifth starter job next spring, although I think both of those guys could be adequately replaced in the rotation by picking up a cheap starter who can give you innings, in addition to the less certain but higher potential types you mentioned. Gee could be a candidate to replace Carrasco in the bullpen if D.J. can’t cut it next spring.
by MetsFanXXIII on Sep 22, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming he can pitch ~200 innigns of not horrible baseball (a pretty safe assumption since he's pitched 150 innings of essentially replacement-level performance this season after a late call-up)
the fact that he makes $500K makes him valuable.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Well if I walk down the street
and find a penny on the ground, I am receiving value. However, how much return can I reasonably expect to see from that penny? And I know pitcher WAR is kind of sketchy, but according to FanGraphs Gee has been worth about $700 K (0.2 fWAR) this year. I’m aware he hasn’t pitched a full season in the majors, but that figure was higher at certain points this year before the stats began to adjust for him. With a slightly higher commitment in base salary, I feel there will be plenty of guys available this winter who can easily eclipse that amount by a healthy margin. I’m not saying get rid of Gee, it’s just that I hardly consider his place in next year’s rotation to be solidified (he should hopefully have some competition in the spring), and I hope that the organization isn’t prepared to rely on him for 2012, even if it does turn out to be another lost season.
by MetsFanXXIII on Sep 22, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Capuano
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 22, 2011 4:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This.
Although if we don’t bring in enough arms, we won’t be able to put any converted starters in the pen.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Keep Reyes, Trade Wilpon.
Capuano's pitched well enough to get himself a decent two year starting gig somewhere,
so I doubt we convert him into a “relief ace”, but it sure would be cool if we did.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Sep 23, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention that he has repeatedly said that he wants to start.
Plenty of teams will be interested…he’s had a solid year.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Sep 23, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Better idea
A better idea imho is to bring in a pitcher with past success in the closer role in for 2012 from the outside. Broxton – Nathan – Lidge would be prime candidates. None of them figures to cost 5 mio $ or more for the year. And each could be a difference making closer to anchor the 2012 pen.
Of course, the Mets need to bring in at least another reliever from the outside, maybe in a trade.
As for the Mets current rotation, the most likely scenario seems to be keeping everything intact for 2012. Possibly re-sign Capuano if the money isn´t absurd (say, 2-years, 7 mio $ seems okay) with the option of him playing a Takahashi type role out of the pen in case Santana and the other 4 returning SP are healthy.
Schwinden should serve as AAA depth.
And at some point in 2012, we should watch the MLB debuts for Matt Harvey and Jeurys Familia.
Capuano's going to get more than 2/$7.
He’s already getting more than 4 just for this season, after making all of his incentives.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Sep 23, 2011 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Ii's a long shot but Familia or Gorski
may be the solution in 2013. For 2012 maybe Morrow and Byrdak?
As for Andrew Miller...kind of not fair on him because
the idiot Tigers and Marlins rushed the “former number one pick” to the Majors.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Same could be said of Pelfrey...
Who made just 33 total starts in the minor leagues. He came up with a big fastball, and not much else. No secondary pitches, and no real grasp of how to pitch.
He still lacks both qualities.

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