Hey, While We're At It, Can We Kick Mickey Mantle Out Of Cooperstown? - Baseball Nation
Rob Neyer expounds on why, only now, sanctimonious sportswriters are invoking the Hall of Fame's ethics clause after sitting idly by, arms folded, for many decades as baseball's legends boozed, drugged, and debauched their way to Cooperstown.
5 months ago
Eric Simon
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If I'm the first one to say this, go me. Otherwise, I forgot where I read this so I apologize for my omission of credit where credit is due.
Anywho, the main problem that steroids presents with the writers is the fact that they felt cheated in all of this. Mantle being drunk or being unfaithful with his wife has nothing to do with the writers themselves. It was really Mantle’s problem, not the writer’s problem. However, all of these writers were tricked into believing that these players were awesome, only to find out a little pill or a shot transformed these athletes to the awesome they were. They are embarrassed that they were tricked and they are taking it out on players that may have done these “unspeakable” things to essentially say “never again.” Sure, they can hide behind terms such as “integrity,” “character,” “role models,” and “long-term health benefits of these players,” but at the end of the day, they’re pissed that these big dumb athletes got the better of them and they are punishing them for that reason alone. To me, it is the only reason as to why PEDs in some sports (baseball) cause more outrage than in other sports (football).
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.
by meigs1414 on Jan 12, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I don't believe they feet tricked
I’d still bet most turned the other cheek. They probably knew and didn’t care. Then records started to fall, the fans got pissed and they had to react to make sure no one blamed them for seeing it and not saying anything.
They're upset because scandal exposes their own failures
8 of the past 28 MVP-winning individuals are publically linked to PEDs. These reporters were on the road and in the clubhouse with guys who looked like pro wrestlers with protruding foreheads and rage issues. I was 15 and I suspected just from watching tv.
If they thought this was newsworthy and deserving of outrage, then why did it take Canseco ratting to bring this story to light?
This after the fact pontificating is supposed to distract us from the fact that they knew about it and didn’t report on it. They didn’t care back then because it was good for the game and everybody was doing it.
by hotspur on Jan 12, 2012 3:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
they're not really upset but they need something to write about
and being upset while ripping out the GRE vocab words to describe bad, immoral people sells because it is controversial.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Mantle was drunk in public
played drunk, hit HRs drunk, etc.
The other guys did all the ’roids while hiding. Some even lied on TV and to congress about it.
In my opinion, that is the reason.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
The Yankees as an organization, and teammates, went out of their way to hide Mantle's drunken escapades
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
One of the most controversial aspects
of Ball Four was Bouton being upfront about Mantle. That’s what made Bouton persona non grata with the Yankees specifically and MLB in general.
Ralph Kiner: You've gotta change the script, I don't like the script.
Gary Cohen: What's wrong with the script?
Ralph Kiner: Well the script should be the Mets win every day.
would have made Hamilton look sober in the in the internet age
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Yeah I don't buy this at all
Alcohol isn’t a performance enhancer. Competition is about fairness. If you had a track meet where some people were allowed to run only 90 meters instead of 100, obviously it would make a mockery of the meet. That is what steroids do – whether you agree or disagree about it’s legality.
The ridiculous abuse of steroids has made some people in baseball start 10 meters ahead.
by Mike Clemente on Jan 13, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not to self-promote
I wrote a blog article here that basically says the same thing.
I honesty think that it’s at the point that there’s two camps: The “all or none” people, or the “steroid sanctimony” people, and we all just talk past each other, really. I don’t really know of anyone who has revised their opinion one way or the other.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 12:29 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Good articles
Here is my position: if a known steroid user (cheater) gets elected to the Hall of Fame, then Pete Rose (gambler) needs to be there as well.
That's ridiculous
Steroid use is cheating to win, just like greenies or spitballs (spitballs don’t REALLY belong in the same category because they don’t affect your health / role modelfor children etc etc etc etc etc). Gambling on baseball then lying about it is a different issue.
There are already many PED users in the HoF
by hotspur on Jan 12, 2012 3:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
completely disagree
Baseball didn’t have a steroid policy until recently. You can call it cheating all you want, but was it any more cheating that greenies were? These players were trying to get an advantage (perhaps unfair) to do better and help their teams win.
Gambling on your team, on the other hand, was and is the ultimate sin in baseball, and gets one banned. As they say, it’s in every locker room in pro ball. Gambling destroys the integrity of competition in ways steroids don’t. How do we know Rose wasn’t betting against the Reds on occasion? Gambling doesn’t confer an advantage on the team of the player/manager doing it, and can be a terrible disadvantage.
Mark Cuban for owner! Save us from the Wilpons!
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 12, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Agree to disagree
Rose never bet on his own team, which I believe was confirmed, but I do not have the time right now to go searching for the article. And steroids is cheating, plain and simple. Rose was one of the best hitters and I would rather see him in the HoF than Bonds or some of the other baffoons that lied to congress, which last I checked is a major offense against the USA.
Not against the rules
Not cheating. Under the rules at the time, steroids were treated the same as any other drug, so greenies = steroids and the you have to ban guys like Mays and Aaron from the hall as well.
While yes, perjury is a crime, that fact they were even on trial for something so unimportant was a bigger crime.
Bonds was a much better player than Rose
if either deserves enshrinement, it Barroid
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
tris speaker & ty cobb may very well have fixed a game while managers
The guy who spoke out refused to testify before the Commissioner.
by hotspur on Jan 13, 2012 12:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My views have changed
Even a year ago I would have been more sympathetic to the “keep ’em out” brigade, but now would suggest that they should all go in.
by dcmetsfan on Jan 12, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yup, same here.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 12, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I stand corrected, then
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Me too.
WRITTEN IN THE STAAAAARS, A MILLION MILES AWAAAAAAY
I write about the Arsenal for The Short Fuse.
by Thomas Wachtel on Jan 13, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
rob neyer is great
does he have an RSS feed i can subscribe to? i remember looking for it back when he first came over to SBNation but could get one that was just neyer. has that changed?
and if i had a vote, i would hold it agasint players who DIDN’T juice, because they weren’t willing go as far as other who used steroids to help their team. no roids = not a team player.
plus palmiero would get my vote for no other reason than he endorsed a boner pill. that takes guts. guts most of this prideful jerks on the ballot dont have.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
sweet, it worked
before all it could was all sbnation mlb posts. its not that i never wanted to read anything but neyer, its just that i am an incredibly busy man and would prefer to fine tune my rss reader as much as possible so to maximize my efficiency when wasting time.
anyways, THANKS!
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
I Admire Your Consistency
“And if i had a vote, i would hold it agasint players who DIDN’T juice, because they weren’t willing go as far as other who used steroids to help their team. no roids = not a team player.”
Of course at the other end of the ability spectrum, those who did not use PEDs WERE held accountable, by not making the majors, not being drafted, not getting the college scholarship, not making the high school team, etc.
by WT Economist on Jan 12, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
dontget me started on the scrubs that get cut from their high school team
they get negative infinity hall of fame votes. just sack up and take some roids you dummies!
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
can we take an AA poll (perhaps in-season when more people visit the site)?
Because I really don’t know who gives a shit about PEDs anymore.
I never really cared, always thought it should be banned, penalized and tested for, and am happy enshrining anyone from that era who deserves enshrinement. People need to move on
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
by astromets on Jan 12, 2012 4:45 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
this, pretty much
I hate Roger Clemens more than just about any athlete who has ever lived, and I think he belongs in Cooperstown.
Mark Cuban for owner! Save us from the Wilpons!
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
This.
If I were a voter, I would vote YES for Clemens and Bonds, NO for McGwire and Palmeiro. Clemens and Bonds were established stars, well on their way to becoming greats in the game long before any hints of PED use came to light. McGwire was basically a one-trick pony even before being traded to St. Louis, and Palmeiro compiled a nice set of career stats, but I never considered him an all-time great.
Just my $0.02.
The 2011 New York Mets: Assume crash position
McGwire should get in
Sosa is the guy who, even with PEDs is borderline. At least Palmeiro and McGwire would be shoe-ins had they put up their numbers without any suspicion.
to me
Palmeiro’s O-numbers say shoe in-the homers, doubles and overall number of hits- but he was never one of the best players in the game, or one of the best players at his position, and he never made a difference for his club. To me, he was never a HOFer, he just put together a nice career
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
A Hall of Fame that doesn't include guys like Bonds, or Clemens
How can you really call that a Hall of Fame?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
He's ineligible
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm, I think you got me wrong.
My post was the answer to BDMF’s question. The Hall sucks without most of these guys. I think it sucks without Rose (Shoeless Joe!), but since you asked, I think I fall in the camp of “if you broke the rules and got caught, you’re out.” It’s a pretty fair stance that everybody should be able to get behind. Do we hold (documented, rules broken) steroid use and betting on games in the same light? How about steroid use and doctoring the ball? How about corked bats?
It’s not difficult. We have to take into account punishment when we compare cheating offenses:
Corked bats: 8-10 game suspension
Doctoring the ball: 10 games
First offense steroid use: 50 games
Betting on baseball: lifetime ban
I used to think Rose should be enshrined, but we need to follow the rules by the book and not our own moral values. Since 1920, players have been banished from baseball from betting on or fixing games. The rules are clear.
I don’t believe the steroid users from the 90s-early 00s are even in this conversation. They broke no rules and received no punishment. Now, if we’re talking about Manny Ramirez, there is an argument to be made.
The easiest thing would be for the Hall to decide what to do with documented users. I’m not sure the Mitchell Report should count either, but wouldn’t it be nice to not even have this conversation? The Commissioner’s office/whoever is still so afraid to even approach the subject publicly, these debates still happen. IMO they shouldn’t happen, we should know which players are eligible and ineligible and follow that accordingly. The vote should be about whose career is worthy of enshrinement, not personal moral judgement.
Meh, short post turned to long post, but I just wish this debate didn’t need to happen at all.
Astro Traveler
if you are going to go by that
how can you excuse any MLB player identified to test positive for steroids from November 29, 1990 onward? (according to erowid and steroidlaw, this is when it became illegal w/o a prescription in the US) They didn’t break an MLB rule, but they broke a US law, and surely that is worse
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Slippery slope.
If “breaking the law” disqualifies a player from the Hall of Fame, then you’re going to have to start throwing a whole lot of people out.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 13, 2012 8:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You can't throw people out
There’s no mechanism. You can only not vote them in.
by aronofsky40 on Jan 13, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Does anyone know..
the length of suspension for use of recreational drugs? If it’s the same as steroid use, then there’s a real dilemma here.. It places moral judgement in the hands of voters. Is 150 games suspended for marijuana use worse than 50 games for steroid use? Is there a distinction in the rules, or do we leave it up to the voters individually? The more I write about this the more I come to the conclusion that the system is fucked. We all knew that though.
Astro Traveler
Think this is it, from wiki, and in short - it's much more complicated than roids.
Testing for drugs of abuse is not administered randomly, but on a basis of reasonable cause. If one of the HPAC panel members has evidence that a player has used, possessed, or sold banned substances in the last 12 months, they call a conference and discuss the evidence with the other members. If a majority vote to test the suspected player is reached then testing will take place no more than 48 hours later…Players are required to be evaluated at least once by HPAC, to determine the proper treatment program. HPAC may decide that additional meetings and medical and/or toxicology examinations are required….Failure to comply with treatment program
First failure to comply: 15 to 25 day suspension and/or a fine of up to $10,000
Second failure to comply: 25 to 50 day suspension and/or a fine of up to $25,000
Third failure to comply: 50 to 75 day suspension and/or a fine of up to $50,000
Fourth failure to comply: minimum one year suspension and/or a fine of up to $100,000
Any subsequent failure(s) to comply: The level of the discipline will be determined by the Office of the Commissioner, consistent with the concept of progressive discipline.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Of course you can.
Because it’ll have Ken Griffey and Frank Thomas and Mike Piazza and a bunch of other all-time great hitters; it’ll have Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson and a bunch of other great pitchers. The era’s well-represented.
We don't know about most of the players who were using.
There are reasonable rumors about Piazza (not the bacne), for example.
are there not similar accusations for Thomas?
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
He's one of baseball's "nice guys"
Along with Thome, so that precludes them from accusations however asinine that may be.
I say the chance of Thome or Thomas doing steroids is roughly the same as Piazza or Bagwell, but writers would rather pick and choose who they want to have an unsubstantiated platform against. Can you tell I’m pissed?
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
those nice guys are the key. One of them needs to slip in and then confess. Like I’ve said before, when the scandal was “breaking” and testing was being implemented they should have said “many of us used steroids because we thought we needed to to put the best product on the field. Now that they are banned and testing is in place we will condemn anyone that uses in the future.”
Piazza wasn't a nice guy???
Dude is still my all time favorite player
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
And he's definitely not gay
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He definitely was
Most ballplayers really just are you-and-me regular people and not Albert Belle-esque maniacs, but Thome and Thomas specifically had the reputation of being so wonderful that they couldn’t possibly have juiced.
There’s no doubt in my mind that they haven’t, but it’s a terrible double-standard.
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
No doubt at all?
Two all-time great hitters playing against juiced pitchers surrounded by juiced hitters and they’re still among the best all time? I have a ton of doubt, but maybe that’s because I don’t care too much.
Astro Traveler
I am pretty sure
That Frank Thomas was considered a surly A-hole.
He certainly did have that rep,
especially among writers. However, he was the player most vocal about the need for PED testing, and that’s the biggest reason he’s not thought to be a user.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 23, 2012 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
You may have a point
But he was so outwardly against PEDs that no one ever would have suspected him.
37 - 14 - 41 - 31 - 17 - 42 - SHEA
Obviously
his master plan to take all the steroids in the world worked perfectly.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 23, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't change the "illegitimacy" the Hall of Fame would have cast over it by not including one of the best position players and one of the best pitchers in baseball history
That other good players get in wouldn’t change the fact that certain great players- and, I mean, it’s not like borderline, could go one way or another, good but not great players- aren’t in.
(I went to Fangraphs to look at their total WAR accumulations, and holy fuck, Bonds hit .362/.609/.812 in 2004!)
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
I coulda hit that too
if I had been shooting junk in my ass.
by aronofsky40 on Jan 13, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
do you think Bonds was juicing when he was MVP in '90?
And looked like a string bean? PEDs turned a great player into a baseball catapult.
by hotspur on Jan 13, 2012 12:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, you really couldn't
This is exactly what “PED hysteria” means. I mean, of course you’re “joking,” but even the joke reflects a ricockulous notion of the possible effect a drug might have on a hitter’s performance.
by anonymous on Jan 13, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
But, the real question is:
Could you have been hitting this?
.jpg)
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
False
False, false false.. I hate morons who think that taking steriods:
1) Make you stronger
2) Make you better at sports
3) think that they had anywhere near the athletic ability that these people had with or without steriods.
Steriods help to recover from strenuos exercise. That’s it.
Here's my issue
I think steroid use is a big deal. It was cheating in a way that differes materially from spitballs and corked bats, as it affected the health of the taker, created pressure on every other player to take and incentivized kids to take to get better. Having said that, it seems hard to have a hall of fame celebrating the game’s best players and to not include the best players. Watching Barry Bonds hit, while on steroids, was the most amazing thing I have ever seen an athlete do. I think ultimately you have to let them all in because frankly, I don’t know if Bagwell or Piazza took . . . same for Greg Maddux and Derek Jeter, but I could take my guesses. Manny is a tough case because he is a multiple times caught cheater, but I think you have to go by playing record (and a credible argument can be made against Palmeiro on that basis).
So what, that it affected their health?
This is an argument for making steroids “special” that I don’t get. All the blow that Tim Raines snorted, didn’t that (A) influence his stats in some way and (B) make him however unhealthier than he would have been if he didn’t use? That aside, why does the fact that it is/can be (I honestly don’t know, since it never was an issue I cared about too deeply) harmful to the individual using them make steroid cheating worse cheating, when it comes to the record book?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
this
you don’t think Mickey getting drunk all the time, or Doc K snorting coke all the time had an influence on the kids? Hey, who knows, maybe that is why voters didn’t support Keith more
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
i attribute my dibilitating coke habit
specifically to Gooden and Strawberry.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Again, the Sanctity of the Game Argument is a Straw Man
Do you want to tell young people that if you want to get ahead in sports, use performance enhancing drugs? Why not legalize them, if not require them? After all, boxing and auto racing are dangerous too.
Should Reece Havens, who has trouble staying on the field, take them? Should Ruben Tejada, who is small and skinny? Should baseball stop them? Test them? If so, why?
By The Way
The Mickey Mantle argument is that if you are keeping out players who take performance enhancing drugs you should keep out players who took performance destroying drugs.
Unlike the 1990s Yankees dynasty, the 1980s Mets dynasty has the latter!
by WT Economist on Jan 12, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not fully sure if you're being sarcastic or not, or what side exactly your argument is on
But I don’t see how not turning PED use into something more than it is- one form of cheating in a sea filled with plenty- equates with condoning PED use.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 12, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
I Don't Care About the "Cheating"
What I care about is by doing something that is bad for health, and illegal, they influenced people to do the same.
If I cared about “cheating,” I’d be advocating kicking Gaylord Perry out of the HOF. Baseball is just a game. This is worse than an offense against baseball. I’d say it was worse than Pete Rose.
by WT Economist on Jan 12, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
If we're just going by "bad for health"
I guess anyone whose ever had fastfood needs to be kicked out as well.
And how about all of those people who breath our polluted air?
Make sure that they’re all gone too.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 12, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
Those things don't give the user any edge performance wise so there is no pressure on others to follow suit.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Smoking would have the inverse effect, I would assume
Makes you less healthy. As such, because there was not an even playing field because some players smoked, and had their performances possibly suffer as a result, the players who didn’t smoke should have some sort of asterisk!
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
unless the cigarette company owned your team
Smoke a different brand, you’re out!
by hotspur on Jan 13, 2012 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If Greenies Were Illegal At the Time
Because the government decided they were harmful, then yes. This isn’t about the “laws of baseball,” and it is not the equivalent of stealing signs.
Basically, if the abuse of Steroids and HGH did not have harmful side effects, and were not illegal, they would be the equivalent of vitamins or sports drinks and Mguire, Bonds etc. would have gotten endorsement deals.
by WT Economist on Jan 13, 2012 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
well then there are a lot of people that need to be kicked out of the hall of fame, because greenies are illegal for that reason.
that’s my whole problem with this issue, I don’t give a shit what people did, and it’s stupid to crucify a handful of people when EVERYONE is guilty. But besides that, if you are going to pull the illegal, bad for you, and/or “what about the children” cards about how evil steroids are, you need to be doing it twice as hard for greenies, because amphetamine abuse has fucked up way more people in the world than steroids have.
by Phildo on Jan 13, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Don't knock greenies! There what got me through college while bartending 4 nights a week.
by Putnan Prince on Jan 13, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
You can't kick people out.
There’s no mechanism.
You can only not vote them in.
by aronofsky40 on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
You have a stance
and your stance…I like your stance.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.
by Steve Schreiber on Jan 12, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
follow this link to a timeline of steroid use in MLB, from the mlb.com site
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/drug_policy.jsp?content=timeline
I post it because the first object made me lol
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Even MLB says it
Using steroids, precursors or performance-enhancing drugs is not illegal at that point (1998) in Major League Baseball.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 13, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think anyone who has pulled the hidden ball trick(which a sneaky thing that should not be glorified
to impressionable young kids out there and should be outlawed by the powers that be),should be banned from the HOF.Base stealing,what do our young boys think of stealing.It’s Okay!
by Putnan Prince on Jan 13, 2012 12:52 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Ha, the hidden ball trick!
No one uses that enough. The Mets want to bring more people to games next season? Let’s have them start pulling things like that out of the hat- makes the games a lot more interesting.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
Arod should be banned from it for this 'high five'
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
by astromets on Jan 13, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At this juncture
I’m not in favor of enshrining anyone who has done steroids. I think it’s a better hall without them.
But I am all for keeping an open mind on the issue and revising my position if the arguments compel me.
I Agree
Maybe the old timers’ committee will let the steroid guys in. If they live to 75, then can make the case that what they did wasn’t so bad after all.
by WT Economist on Jan 13, 2012 7:46 AM EST up reply actions
They let everyone else in so probably.
I should ask if I could get in. I’m sure the Veterans committee will say yes.
by aronofsky40 on Jan 13, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
They don't let Gil Hodges in, the fucktarded schmucks
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Different thought
but in the same vain as Neyer.
You can’t have a Hall of Fame based on “Integrity” and “Character” when a man like Ty Cobb is enshrined there.
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.
You can
if “integrity” and “character” only related to baseball related activities (i.e. cheating).
by aronofsky40 on Jan 13, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Ty Cobb famously went into the stands to attack that disabled guy
Interrupting the game and all. That assault would have to count as a baseball-related activity: Cobb attacked the man because he was heckling Cobb during the game, was obviously influencing Cobb’s emotions during the game, etc.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't know this story
but I like that it illustrates my point. I was just going off the whole “he’s a racist” thing.
Now, kids, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep; in giant blender.
He choked out the wife of a groundskeeper once
He was one of crazy dude.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 3:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But was there any specific baseball rule
about going into the stands and attacking someone? No? Then it shouldn’t matter at all, right?
Let me consult my handy-dandy baseball rulebook I won in last years AAOP
Umpires can have players ejected from games for obscene language.
Players cannot socialize with spectators, nor can they incite them.
Since base ball has always been a gentlemanly sport, especially in Cobbs era, I would assume both rules were on the books.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cobb also once assaulted a hotel elevator operator.
"And that's why anybody who invested with Lenny Dykstra should really call that number. Lawyers are standing by."
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 13, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
He also fought an ump after the game
His teammates had to pull him off the guy when Cobb started choking him.
that would've set me off
I would’ve gone to one of the games, bought a ticket pretty close to the field, and heckled the shit out of Cobb. I would have done whatever it took to get his racist ass to charge me in the stands and then had ten of the strongest people I know in various seats around me to help disable him – teach him a lesson
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
You can have any kind of "Hall of Fame" you want, actually.
Feel free to start your own.
Interesting Thought
Perhaps Cobb was just an extreme version of what lots of people were like back in the day.
Any chance someone exactly like him (if such a person could exist in the modern world) would get in today? They’d be calls for boycotts, protests at the HOF, etc.
by WT Economist on Jan 13, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Cap Anson and Jackie Robinson are enshrined in the same room
It has to count for something, but it people use it as a cop out more than anything else.
37 - 14 - 41 - 31 - 17 - 42 - SHEA
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