BP's 2012 Mets Top 20 Prospects
As you may have noticed, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus released his Mets top 20 prospect rankings earlier this week. There are a lot of new rankings floating around right now but Goldstein's are one of a small handful that I actively take note of and encourage others looking for a good perspective on the system to consider each year.
Aside from knowing his sh*t, Goldstein has a couple of things going for him that most prospect watchers -- and creators of Mets prospect rankings -- do not: It sounds silly but he has actually prospect-watched; meaning he's seen many, if not most of these players play. Call me old fashioned, but I like that. Also, he has no problem bucking the trends with his picks, which is saying something in the current tide of largely cookie cutter rankings.
See his Mets rankings below:
System In 20 Words Or Less: With improvement coming via all three areas—draft, trades, international—the Mets are finally moving in the right direction.
Five-Star Prospects
1. Matt Harvey, RHP
2. Zack Wheeler, RHP
Four-Star Prospects
3. Jeurys Familia, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
4. Brandon Nimmo, OF
5. Juan Lagares, OF
6. Jordany Valdespin, 2B
7. Jenrry Mejia, RHP
8. Reese Havens, 2B
9. Cesar Puello, OF
10. Michael Fulmer, RHP
11. Kirk Nieuwenhuis, OF
He'd go on to round out the top 20 by making a few more interesting picks such as Wilmer Flores dropping down to no. 16 behind AA favorite Darin Gorski at no. 14 and including low ceiling September call-up Chris Schwinden in the final spot.
Some random reactions:
- It seems that most of the top sources give Harvey the edge over Wheeler and I'm with them there, though I really can't fault anyone for going with the newcomer.
- I appreciated the aggressive placements of Valdespin and Lagares. On most of the 2012 lists out so far (Mets Fever gives you a nice little scoreboard here) you'll typically find both of these guys anywhere from the teens to outside of the top 20 entirely. Both players are certainly flawed, but at a certain point performance -- especially at a high level of the minors -- has to count for something, and in my book that something is pretty substantial.
- Also appreciated the fact that while he penalized Mejia for the TJ surgery -- as he described in a subsequent Q&A with Toby Hyde -- he wasn't too heavy-handed in doing so with a guy that has arguably had the most success at the highest levels of any pitcher in the system. And his stuff ain't too shabby either...
- Goldstein also isn't quite riding the recent wave of love for Cesar Puello; many other sources have him within the top five if not higher. He's even less impressed with the rest of the youthful trio in Flores and Marte. I know that Flores actually wasn't awful in 2011 if you look hard enough but at some point he's got to give us a reason to get excited -- at least if he's going to hang around the top ten -- and IMO he hasn't done that since '09; maybe I'm being overly gun-shy but smells a little too much like FMart.
- I must say I do have a lot more love for Capt. Kirk, though I'm willing to accept that I'm in the minority on that. The bulk of his value proposition revolves around the ability to play center and having watched a lot of him in Buffalo I'm not ready to cede that one.
All in all, it's an interesting list. He definitely didn't give us the same old boilerplate Mets ranking that you might see in other places. There are some major variations here. However, he's in luck because when measured against my recently completed ranking* it turns out that he's not far off the mark!
The reason I typically like Goldstein's rankings though is because he always seems to strike a nice balance between the analytical side and the more subjective approach. Meaning stats vs. scouting. I look at ranking prospects as a sort of philosophical exercise, so really nobody is wrong it's just about what's important to you.
However, I will point out that I appreciate that he does not often fall into the trap of youth. By that I mean the tendency to overvalue the unknown. This is something you see all throughout the world of prospect rankings, year after year and it bugs me. In a way I think we overrate the young players because they've yet to show us their failings, and we prefer that fantasy of a flawless prospect to the guys who may be higher though better competition has clearly pointed out their flaws.
That's why it's so common to see someone like FMart or Flores begin their prospect career at the very top of rankings and seemingly each year they drop a few spots, even as they get closer to the majors. This means someone like Juan Urbina, Aderlin Rodriguez, any of those guys who look great in Rookie-ball that we hope will remain as flawless as they climb. Yet that's almost never happened, and to rank based on those hopes -- and in doing so overlooking the importance of performance in the high minors -- isn't really realistic. Yet we pretty much all do it.
But that's just my nonsensical ramblings coming through again. Your thoughts?
*To Chris' point from his announcement yesterday, in the absence of the Annual expect to see the aforementioned Top 50 ranking here online starting next week, chock full of all the analysis and insight you've come to know and love in the AAA.
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My reactions...
Harvey/Wheeler could go either way. everyone admits that. I still like Wheeler slightly more though.
I have no problem with Valdespin in the top 10, that’s about where I had him. Lagares, on the other hand, is about 10 spots too high. Goldstein said that his reasoning for ranking Lagares ahead of Nieuwenhuis and Puello is that Lagares has the strongest hit tool, which… sure, I can buy that. I don’t buy into KG’s belief that Lagares will develop average power (18-20) at the MLB level. Nor do I buy that Lagares’s hit tool is that much better than Kirk’s to justify being ranked ahead of him. If none of them are center fielders, then the secondary tools are going to matter even more. He’s a little low on Puello, but I have no real problems with that, as he does have some serious work to do with his approach.
Flores seems too low. i understand he hasn’t been exciting, but if KG is talking about hit tools, in relevance to ranking Lagares at five… FIVE. It bears repeating, FIVE. The hit tool is about the only thing Lagares has going for him. Flores has the best hit tool in the system.
Schwinden at 20 is… unexciting. I would have went with Aderlin Rodriguez, or Albert Cordero, to name a couple. I mean, you can’t really fault the ranking, but there’s really nobody storming to read about a Chris Schwinden.
I would put Collin McHugh before I put Schwinden
Realistically they’re probably the same ceiling but McHugh at least has that “shiny new toy” feel to him and had a much better season.
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
Yeah, I have a good feeling about McHugh
Unlike Gee and Schwinden, McHugh in his minor-league career has consistently both posted top-notch strikeout rates and kept the ball on the ground. He’s also walked more hitters, but I feel like minor league walk rates are far less meaningful than the other peripherals. Ryota Igarashi had great control in AAA last year.
I think the biggest knock on Flores is that we have no idea what position he'll end up at.
Goldstein has said scouts question if he’ll even be able to play 3B or a corner outfield position. If he can only play first base and never really develops power, how valuable is that?
by EricAColucci on Jan 14, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I believe that Flores can play an average 3B.
He has soft hands, good reactions, and a strong arm. He may end up having below-average range, but that’s really the only knock. He’ll make all the routine plays, and shouldn’t really hurt you. If he does develop into a .300 hitter with say 20 HR pop, I think a lot of teams would take it. There are still plenty of scouts out there who still like Flores a lot.
But he hasn't really shown that kind of power, has he?
I thought that’s part of why his stock has been dropping. He’s moving down the defensive spectrum and he hasn’t shown the power scouts thought he could develop.
by EricAColucci on Jan 15, 2012 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
Sure, he hasn't
But he was still only 19 in A+, playing alot of games in a tough environment for hitters, playing against mostly kids 2-3 years older than him. Brandon Nimmo will be 19 next year, and could conceivably be playing in A+ at some point. If he went and hit a similar line in 2012 is he going to be written off as a bust with the bat as well?
I just can't wrap my head around
the placement of Lagares at 5. If I did a list he might struggle to make the top 20. If KG doesn’t think Lagares or Kirk will stick at CF, wouldn’t Kirk still be the better prospect due to his overall set of tools in comparison to Lagares who has a hit tool and not much else?
"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.
Lagares probably has more speed than Kirk and a better arm as well.
As far as raw tools go, Lagares is one of the best in the system. The big issue with Juan is probably his reliance of BABIP due to his approach at the plate.
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 14, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Not really much in common between Wilmer and F!
Wilmer’s been remarkably healthy. On the other hand, his actual numbers have been significantly less impressive than Fernando’s, despite being moved through the system far more conservatively. With Fernando, I really believe he could have become a star if he’d stayed healthy. Wilmer might just not be good enough.
actually
in your final sentence you pointed out what’s in common between flores and fmart, the fact that both were considered star-level prospects early on and and have faded as time passed, which is what i was referring to (‘FMart or Flores began their prospect career at the very top of rankings and seemingly each year they drop a few spots.’)
i wasn’t really saying anything else about their situations were similar. that’d be like pointing out that juan urbina and aderlin rodriguez aren’t that similar either.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 14, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Can't really complain with that list, more or less
I would flip Kirk Nieuwenhuis with Wilmer Flores (Him being ranked 16 surprises me the most), and shift everyone else down one, so that Flores is 11, Nieuwenhuis is 12, and everyone else moves back one.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 14, 2012 12:38 PM EST reply actions
Actually, I'd switch Flores with Puello, so that Flores is 9, Puello is 10, and everyone shifts down one
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 14, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Lagaras seems too high
and again, if you are going to include Mejia, he has to be top-5.
But with regards to the poll, I’d rank Nimmo over Puello but they’d be my #4 and #5 prospects overall (not including Mejia).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Brandon Nimmo is the definition of raw.
He could get eaten alive his first year and I would still have some hopes for him.
"Hey Paul, re..remember when you were in The Beatles? That was awesome."
by Five-Tool Tool on Jan 14, 2012 7:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I went with Cap't Kirk in the poll
but only because I really don’t have an opinion yet on Nimmo. I want to do more research before I form an opinion, which isn’t meant to be a dig at him at all. As far as the other three, i think Kirk brings more all around than Lagares does in hitting and arm, but I could probably be convinced to go either way.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jan 14, 2012 8:00 PM EST reply actions
Rob, am I correct in reading that you think Urbina looked great in Rookie ball?
If so, what did I miss? I thought he had two disappointing Rookie league campaigns.
urbina
well it was more of a general statement about kids looking great in instructs or against other teenagers at the very lowest levels and being exposed against better competition.
but in terms of urbina specifically, while he didn’t blow anyone away statistically in 2010 it was the scouting reports that carried him to the top of most mets prospect rankings — including my own. scouts came away extremely impressed with his command (2.6 BB/9) as well as a highly advanced feel for his secondary stuff and an already average fastball, all from a 17-yr old lefty with a frame (6’2" 170lbs) that suggested lots more to come.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 14, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Capt Kirk
I rated him over Nimmo just because I have to see Nimmo do something atthe minor league level first. Too many guys do not live up at their draft hype.
Is Kirk healthy for the start of the season?
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
Harvey and Wheeler and maybe Mejia
we have 3 very nice pitchers there. actually a little exciting, maybe I should watch minor league ball this season instead
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
Another great write up Rob! Thank you.
“many other sources have him within the top five if not higher.” Higher than the TOP five? He is in the top -3? He is so good he is in the negative scale? Nice!
__________________________________________________________________
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by ScottfromPeekskill on Jan 15, 2012 9:04 AM EST reply actions
Schwinden is a head scratcher
I’d have put Muno or Vaughn or even Leathersich in there. Muno may be a bit old, but you can’t ignore a .466 OBP from a middle infielder. I think Travis Taijeron is under the radar on a lot of these lists too. Like Lagares, he’ll probably have to play a corner outfield and not center, but the a .953 OPS playing half of the games in Brooklyn is pretty impressive.
taijeron
i agree with you on the overall sentiment that he deserves some attention. i’m trying not to get crazy about him just yet as many a 4-yr college player has torn up the NYPL and floundered at higher levels. and you certainly can’t ignore the serious swing-and-miss in his game. however, he’s an athletic kid who has very real power and posted some very gaudy numbers in his pro debut.
although not sure i’m with you on brooklyn as a hitting environment though, typically MCU Field plays pretty hitter friendly.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 16, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
good to see the top prospects int his system are all pitchers
definitely a welcomed sign. I would move Kirk higher than Puello, but that’s just my opinion.
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