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Around SBN: Drug Testing, Alistair Overeem & UFC 146's Potential Legacy

Mike Piazza and the Tools of Ignorance

Originally posted on Fair and Unbalanced

Mike Piazza is a certain Hall of Famer, a 12-time All Star and a true superstar. After Tom Seaver, he was the greatest player the Mets ever had (after several stellar years with the Dodgers.) Nevertheless, my most enduring memory of Mikey is his last at bat in Game #5 of the 2000 World Series against the Yankees. Down three games to one, and losing by two runs with two outs and one runner on base in the ninth inning, Piazza crushed a Mariano Rivera pitch to centerfield that for a moment looked like it would clear the fence and tie the game. Alas, the ball landed in Bernie Williams' glove instead, and the Yankees won the World Series.


It is probably unfair, but to me this encapsulates the 8-year Piazza Era in New York; a time marked by some spectacular play and wonderful moments but ultimately disappointment and failure. The Mets in Piazza's first year, 1998, missed the playoffs by one game, then lost a brutal playoff to the Braves in 1999, when Kenny Rogers walked in the winning run, and, as noted above, lost to the Yankees in the 2000 World Series. And that was it. In Piazza's final five seasons the team was mediocre at best finishing third twice, fourth once and fifth twice.

In a recent profile in the Wall Street Journal, Piazza was asked where he would rank himself on the list of all time great catchers, and he replied, "in the top five":

I'm a humble person, but I'd definitely put myself in the top five. I'd say Johnny [Bench] first for his charisma and talent—then I'd say Roy Campanella—he won three MVPs, after all. And Yogi Berra. If I put myself over Yogi, people would say, 'Who does he think he is, he put himself over Yogi?'

This got me thinking as to where Piazza does rank among the greatest catchers in Major League history. Here's the competition:

Piazza ignores a trio of legendary catchers from the 1920s and 1930s: Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey and Gabby Hartnett. Of the three, Cochrane was the greatest player. He was a two-time MVP, compiled a .320 lifetime batting average, a .419 on base percentage. He helped lead the Philadelphia A's to three straight American League pennants (1929-1931), with World Series wins in 1929 and 1930. He was a player-manager for a Detroit Tigers team that appeared in two World Series (1934-1935) winning the series in 1935.


Bill Dickey was the catcher for the first great Yankee dynasty, a team that won seven World Series. He was a ten-time All Star, hit over .300 in ten of his first eleven years, and was known for his superb defensive skills as well. Dickey is believed to have coined the phrase, "the tools of ignorance," in reference to catcher's equipment while strapping on the gear and wondering why anyone in their right mind would want to play such a taxing position.

As Bill James wrote in his Historical Baseball Abstract (1985), the Cubs' Gabby Harnett was "generally recognized as the greatest National League catcher before Johnny Bench." He was the NL MVP in 1935. The first All Star game was played in 1933, and Hartnett was named to the team that year and the following five. A great defense catcher, manager Joe McCarthy said, "he threw a ball that had the speed of lightning, but was as light as a feather. He could also hit, with a lifetime .297 average. He is most famous for his 1938 "Homer in the Gloamin," which put the Cubs in first place and launched them to the pennant.
.
Then, there are the two great catchers of the 1950s, Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella. With all of Yogi's famous sayings (although, as he put it, "I really didn't say everything I said"), it is easy to overlook his greatness as a player. Berra played for 19 years and was one of the leading offensive players of his time, finishing his career with 358 home runs, 1430 RBI, 1175 runs scored, and 2,150 hits. He was an All-Star 18 times, and won three MVP awards. Perhaps most significantly, Berra was an integral part of a Yankee team that won 14 pennants and 10 World Series.

Roy Campanella, the great Dodger catcher, played for only ten seasons, starting late (he was 28 in his first full season in 1949) because of racism, and ending prematurely because of a car accident which left him paralyzed. But what an amazing ten years. He was an 8-time All Star and, like Berra, a 3-time MVP. With Campanella behind the plate, the Dodgers won the pennant five times and the World Series once.

Finally, I can talk about a catcher I actually saw play. Johnny Bench was in a class by himself as the anchor of the Big Red Machine, the powerful Reds teams of the 1970s. He was the Rookie of the Year in 1968, and won his first of two National League MVP awards in 1970, by which time he was already being talked about as one of the best catchers ever. He was not only a feared hitter but he is considered by many to be the greatest defensive catcher in history. He was a 14-time All Star, 2-time MVP, and won ten Gold Glove awards in a row.

Then there are the two Pudges. Carlton "Pudge" Fisk played for 24 years (1969, 1971-1993) for the Red Sox and the White Sox. He was overshadowed by Bench during his prime, but Fisk -- an 11-time All Star -- was the best catcher in the American League in the 1970s and first half of the 1980s. He was an excellent defensive catcher, a strong hitter and a huge presence. His game-winning home run to win Game #6 of the World Series to beat the Reds, like Hartnett's homer (and unlike Piazza's fly out) is one of the true iconic moments in baseball history.

The other "Pudge," Ivan Rodriguez, is still playing, and has already surpassed Fisk as having caught the most games all time. He may be Bench's equal, maybe, dare I say, even better, as a defensive catcher and he can also flat out hit, although not as well as Bench. 14-time All Star, 13-time Gold Glove winner, and a 1999 American League MVP, he led two teams to the World Series, winning a championship with the Marlins in 2003.

One more for the top ten. A sentimental but worthy choice. Gary Carter, another Met, who I wrote about here. The heir to Johnny Bench as the next great National League catcher, Carter was an 11-time All Star and key member of the 1986 World Champion Mets.

So where does Piazza fit in? Mike Piazza is surely the greatest hitting catcher ever. His offensive numbers are staggering. He batted.300 in nine consecutive seasons (1991-2001) and leads all catchers in career home runs with 427 (Fisk is second). He boasts a .308 career batting average, 1335 RBI, 2127 hits, 344 doubles and 1048 runs scored. These would be remarkable numbers for any player but for a catcher who has to crouch behind the plate for nine innings, and get beat up and worn down by foul tips, hard slides and other aches and pains like no other position player, it is unfathomable.

On the other hand, Piazza was not a very good catcher, a position where defensive skill is paramount and offensive prowess is more of a bonus than a prerequisite. It was painful to watch Piazza behind the plate as he tried to throw out runners or block balls in the dirt. The question is how much his quick swing and strong bat made up for his weak arm and slow feet. Enough to get him into the top five? Not quite.

Bench, Berra, Cochrane are generally considered the top three. Campanella is probably next. The fifth slot has got to go to Ivan Rodriguez who, upon reflection, may rate even higher on the list.

Piazza does fit comfortably among among the next five, although I'm not sure exactly where. He did not have defensive skills anywhere near Hartnett, Dickey, Carter or Fisk, but his hitting was so far superior to the rest of the field that he is probably rated at or near the top of this impressive group.

So, Mike Piazza is among the top ten greatest catchers of all time. Not bad for a catcher who couldn't catch and who never won a World Series.

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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Green'd

Seriously, I have never seen such a backhanded compliment of such a beloved player. My enduring memory of Mike will be Sep. 23, 2001, how bout that

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jan 16, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

This, this, and this.

Most moving sports moment, ever.

Logic Your Sense Makes None.
@GiantBCfan

by JoeBighead on Jan 15, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

but, but........

Lou Gehrig !!!!!

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jan 16, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

To this day

I still get chills watching that. Tim McCarver with the call of his life

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jan 16, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe that was Howie

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jan 16, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Howie & Fran Healy (at the end).

Ralph Kiner: You've gotta change the script, I don't like the script.
Gary Cohen: What's wrong with the script?
Ralph Kiner: Well the script should be the Mets win every day.

by StorkFan on Jan 16, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

correct

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jan 17, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I stand corrected

Still gives me chills

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jan 19, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

unclutch steroid user

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jan 16, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Amazing how

the crowd sounds. We’ve all heard Shea rocking, and this was rocking, but there was something subdued in the sound as well. What a sigh of relief that life could be like it was, even though it never will be. Hats off to Karsay if he served it (it was a fat pitch). I don’t think it diminishes the moment. The ball can’t get out by itself.

Mookie Wilson still hoping to win it for New York. 3 and 2 the count, and the pitch by Stanley, and a ground ball, trickling, it is a fair ball...GETS BY BUCKNER...rounding 3rd Knight...the Mets will win the ball game. The Mets win. They win! --Bob Murphy

by Unga on Jan 21, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The new HOF inductees haven't even been inducteed yet and the bashing of Piazza begins

Not surprising

ESPN, Mike Francesa, NY Post, NY Daily News, Fox Sports = Propaganda

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by BlueChill on Jan 15, 2012 7:23 AM EST reply actions  

Awful

just awful.

Logic Your Sense Makes None.
@GiantBCfan

by JoeBighead on Jan 15, 2012 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

Well...

Johnny Bench: 81.6 WAR (2152 Games)
Carlton Fisk: 77.4 WAR (2477 Games)
Ivan Rodriguez: 73.4 WAR (2525 Games)
Gary Carter: 72.5 WAR (2283 Games)
Yogi Berra: 71.4 WAR (2120 Games)
Joe Torre: 70.8 WAR (2206 Games)
Mike Piazza: 66.7 WAR (1908 Games)
Bill Dickey: 63.8 WAR (1789 Games)
Ted Simmons: 61.1 WAR (2454 Games)
Gary Hartnett: 56.1 WAR (1990 Games)
Mickey Cochrane: 55.9 WAR (1482 Games)

So, as we can see, Mike Piazza ranks 7th. Not all that far from “top five”. Something to note- all the players in front of him in All-Time Catcher WAR accumulation have around 2,200 ABs to Piazza’s 1,900. If had 4,000 extra ABs over the course of his career, he would have likely jumped over Torre, and possibly even Berra. Also of note is that Mickey Cochrane accumulated 55.9 WAR in almost 800 ABs less than the guys above him, more or less. If he had 800 more ABs, he’d probably be at the top of this list.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 15, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

you mean 2,200 games, not AB'S.

Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "

by SuperSantana on Jan 15, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, games not ABs

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 15, 2012 2:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Mikey Cochrane has impressive numbers for the amount of games he played;

also, just wondering, was Ivan Rodriguez ever linked to steroids?

Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "

by SuperSantana on Jan 15, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Jose Canseco named him in Juiced

Other than that, it’s all speculation as far as I know. Canseco has been honest/correct up until this point, so Rodriguez probably was shooting himself up. Outside of his MVP years, Rodriguez also has playing time helping him out- it feels like he’s been playing forever. And as a catcher, which is impressive.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 15, 2012 2:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He does have that forehead thing going on.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Jan 15, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That's all the evidence I need to bar him from the Hall of Fame!

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 15, 2012 11:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

there was a lot of talk about it when he went over to the Marlins

as his slugging percentage had risen 150-200 points during his final seasons on the Rangers, but then he suddenly came into camp very very slimmed down. According to wiki, he was asked point blank if his name was on the list of 103 positive test results from the 2003 survey test and instead of denying it said that only God knows – which makes me wonder if Bud Selig makes everyone call him God

2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!

by astromets on Jan 20, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

he needs to either explain how

he juiced the ball, or how he lost all that weight!! was it the band or the shake?

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Feb 1, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Notice Ted Simmons on that list

He was an awesome hitting catcher but was a poor fielder behind the plate. Instead of being bashed like Piazza, he is frequently cited as one of the most underrated players and a big time HoF snub. Such a double standard, and I think Simmons is a HoF.

"Let them be stud muffins"
-Tom Seaver
Proud Mets, Jets, Knicks, Islanders fan.

by piazza62 on Jan 15, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

A large chunk of his total WAR accumulation

to the point he drops far down the list.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 16, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Cochrane's career

ended early because of a serious beaning. (After Ray Chapman, but still no batting helmets.) No telling where he would have ended up if not for that.

Ralph Kiner: You've gotta change the script, I don't like the script.
Gary Cohen: What's wrong with the script?
Ralph Kiner: Well the script should be the Mets win every day.

by StorkFan on Jan 16, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Similar for Campy

If he had been able to move to MLB before he was 28, hadn’t been crippled by bone spurs and other maladies common to older catchers with a lot of years on buses between games (especially in the years before advanced sports medicine), and then hadn’t been disabled, his numbers would have been much higher. He had a triple whammy of complications that didn’t allow him to reach his full potential.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Jan 30, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/3/7/2030139/the-hall-of-wwar-catchers

Piazza’s wWAR is third all time, behind Bench and… Gary Carter.

by nerfan on Jan 15, 2012 11:38 AM EST reply actions  

I really liked your title if that counts

Yogi on the 1969 NY Mets....." overwhelming underdogs "

by SuperSantana on Jan 15, 2012 12:07 PM EST reply actions  

Bottom Line

I conclude that Piazza is a certain Hall of Famer, second greatest Met, and greatest hitting catcher of all time. I rank him almost but not quite in the top 5 catchers, but easily in the top 10.

by Lovechilde on Jan 15, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

"Not bad for a catcher who couldn't catch and who never won a World Series."

I kinda don’t know what to say here. Most enduring memory is a HR that wasn’t? Even if you chose the Clemens bat or beaming incident, it would have come off slightly more understandable. How about the HR after 9/11 that started NY on its way back to being able to enjoy the little things in life again.

A catcher who couldn’t catch? There is so much more to the position then throwing out base runners. Sure he obviously struggled in that one area, but he was good a everything else. He called great games too. But to even focus on the base runners as the most important aspect of his game, when the sheer purpose of running on Piazza was less about advancing a base but instead trying to get in his head in hopes he carried that to the plate. The man was a feared hitter across all positions. He carried teams and won games practically by himself. He did so fairly healthy from the catcher position which he played well despite an apparent achilles heal in throwing out runners.

Frankly, I’m shocked you didn’t try to insinuate steriod use in this piece. It would have been a nice little pinky ring on this backhanded slap of a complimentary piece.

by CervezaVerde on Jan 15, 2012 5:52 PM EST reply actions  

I think you're overly bashing his defense a bit.

He was a terrible thrower. I think we could all agree on that. However, he was typically pretty solid at blocking balls in the dirt and from what I remember, the pitchers often said that they liked throwing to him and that he called a good game.

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You might know me as mistermet.

by Steve Schreiber on Jan 15, 2012 6:05 PM EST reply actions  

I don't get how this is possible
my most enduring memory of Mikey is his last at bat in Game #5 of the 2000 World Series against the Yankees.

Listen to Ari…

2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!

by astromets on Jan 15, 2012 10:12 PM EST reply actions  

This

Also he seems to forget that the Mets were the only team during the Skanks dynasty in that era to win an actual game in those WS. Both the Padres and Braves got swept

ESPN, Mike Francesa, NY Post, NY Daily News, Fox Sports = Propaganda
Blue and Orange, Green and White, Red and Black

Twitter: @BlueChill1123

by BlueChill on Jan 16, 2012 9:04 AM EST up reply actions  

right?

so many memories of him on the Mets and that is the one remembered. That wasnt even the big play of the WS…

I forgot that even happened until I read about it here.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jan 29, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Piazza couldn't throw for shit

everybody knows that. He wasn’t a bad catcher though, from what I remember he was a great receiver who pitchers liked to throw to, and he blocked everything.

by nrmax88 on Jan 19, 2012 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

i remember

him being great at blocking the plate while catching throws from the OF.

I think it was Bobby V who said: "You are never as good as you are when you are at your best, and you are not as bad as when you are at your worst."

by gbaked on Jan 29, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

He certainly was no Mackey Sasser

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Jan 30, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

.

Tap..tap..rec’d.

Ralph Kiner: You've gotta change the script, I don't like the script.
Gary Cohen: What's wrong with the script?
Ralph Kiner: Well the script should be the Mets win every day.

by StorkFan on Jan 30, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

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