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Around SBN: On Hazards And Hulks And Tigers, Oh My!

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So, this is good new in regards to ousting the Wilpons, right?

While I do not wish anyone misfortune, I also would like the Mets to be owned by better people. Additionally, I want this headache associated with the Mets to go away.

Husker/Giants/Mets fan living behind enemy lines.

by CCE718 on Feb 10, 2012 10:26 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

No need to feel guilty

about their misfortune – if true then they are thieves, pure and simple.

"RBI’s does measure something – Wins."
-Bayonne Mets Fan on MMO

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 10, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I hope this sinks them

Heres rooting for the Picard legal team

ESPN, Mike Francesa, NY Post, NY Daily News, Fox Sports = Propaganda
Blue and Orange, Green and White, Red and Black

Twitter: @BlueChill1123

by BlueChill on Feb 10, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions  

hope this is a credible witness

and not somebody lobby for job in front office

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 10, 2012 12:25 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Word on the street is that Noreen Harrington is lobbying for role of trustee.

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Feb 10, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope the Wilpons know they can't take away Picards Law credentials just because they don't like him.

And I love that this story came from Howard Megdal!

Go get em Pitbull Megdal!

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Feb 10, 2012 12:48 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

i didn't notice that it was Megdal until you pointed it out

but there is a certain poetic justice to that. Looks like we’re in for another season of so-so baseball and excessive news stories pertaining to the Mets in a non-sports context. I hope at some point Saul Katz tears off his shirt and challenges the prosecutor to a fistfight.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 10, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

HM might be more entertaining than the Mets this season.

Hope he keeps ripping the Wilpons!

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Feb 10, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Wilpons pants must have filled with crap when he heard about her.

“Irving Picard has an eyewitness telling a jury that after being hired by Saul Katz to perform due diligence, she presented Saul Katz directly with evidence that Bernie Madoff was a fraud—and Katz chose to turn away. "

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Feb 10, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

Due diligence you say?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place

by Ogre39666 on Feb 10, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Really looks like a trail of incriminating actions by Katz and Wilpon.

Not good for him.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Feb 10, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Good for her

She performed what is called “cluster analysis”, which takes all of the hedge funds who report results, and clusters the return characteristics into groups. So, all of the funds that trade in convertible bond arbitrage, show up together (it was either a good year or bad year for that strategy). Madoff’s/Merkin’s returns showed up as an outlier – it didnt do just a little better than the other funds that claimed the same strategy, it had completely different risk/return characteristics. As an industry guy, her story is completely credible – this is a modern, sophisticated risk management technique.

The fact that Katz ignored her warning – well, yeah, this is AFTER he created Sterling/Stamos to diversify away from Madoff, which was right after he priced out FRAUD INSURANCE ON MADOFF!

Great work, Howard. I hope these crooks go to jail.

"RBI’s does measure something – Wins."
-Bayonne Mets Fan on MMO

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 10, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, there is really no plausible storyline for them

It seems most likely that they thought Madoff was front-running, and the worst that would happen would be that it would be discovered and the fantastic returns would come to an end. Perhaps they didn’t know/believe it was a ponzi scheme, but they had to have pretty much known it was illegal – everyone who digs into the data says the implausibility was obvious.

They just assumed they could put on a shocked, shocked look when it finally came to light, and go back to market returns. Their strategy against Picard has been to play stupid, but if she’s a solid witness, their goose could be cooked.

by SuperT on Feb 10, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

wow

just wow

metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?

by dabu7 on Feb 10, 2012 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Doesn't say much for the

SEC who should have known years before this witness what was going on.

by MetsFan4Decades on Feb 10, 2012 3:20 PM EST reply actions  

Oh, they knew.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf. "

– Tug McGraw when asked about his preference for grass or astroturf

by Terry_is_God on Feb 10, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

No kidding

Google the Markopolos paper – it was brought to the SEC on a silver fucking platter.

"RBI’s does measure something – Wins."
-Bayonne Mets Fan on MMO

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 10, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

He will lobby when the new owner is in place.

I bet the new owner sends him a platinum plated lifetime credential.

__________________________________________________________________
Really good kid.A very good player.Not a superstar. #BlameWilponz. Never Forget

by ScottfromPeekskill on Feb 10, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know...I wouldn't be too sure it's a slam dunk

In court, things like that are EXTREMELY hard to prove. Unless videos of her informing Jeff/Fred exist, and themthe being proficient in thethe knowledge, there are plenty of outs they can potentiallykeep use- the paperwork got lost in transmission, they didn’t fully understand, etc.

And you know they’ll be pulling out all the stops to limit the bleeding.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 10, 2012 7:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I wonder how Uncle Saul's "I don't remember that" strategy will play in front of a jury.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
You might know me as mistermet.

by Steve Schreiber on Feb 10, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Having gotten home and read the linked article, I don't really see how this slam dunk in the least

Noreen Harrington, working with that division of Sterling Equities (Sterling Stamos), met with Ezra Merkin. Ezra Merkin was regularly bringing back positive numbers, and was engaging in practices that raise red flags (cashing in every month). Noreen Harrington did some research and ran numbers, and concluded based on that, that the reason for this was because Ezra Merkin was actually a front to Bernie Madoff, and was he simply feeding any invested funds he recieved back to Madoff’s overall ponzi scheme pot. When she voiced these concerns to Saul Katz, David Katz, and Sterling Equities partner Peter Stamos, they didn’t believe her. She quit soon thereafter.

This doesn’t in any conclusive way put together that the Wilpons knew that Madoff was engaging in all kinds of illegal operations, as I am reading the story. According to her research, Ezra Merkin’s operations, and Bernie Madoff’s were connected to each other, and she told Katz/Katz/Stamos. This doesn’t translate into the Wilpons (or Katz or Stamos, for that matter) knew that Madoff was involved in an illegal ponzi scheme. The Wipons specifically can say that that information was never passed on to them (that Ezra Merkin was was involved in potentially illegal dealings), or that they didn’t understand, or that they found her research faulty at the time, or that Peter Stamos was the one who wanted to invest with Merkin, or a whole bunch of other outs.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 10, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

If I read the story correctly...

She claims to have told Katz explicitly not only that Merkin was feeding Madoff, but that the whole Madoff operation could only be getting the results it did via some illegal practice or other, and that Katz refused to take this seriously. It bolsters Picard’s claims that the Wilpons, whether or not they actively knew Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme, were so flagrantly negligent about it that they need to be severely penalized.

by djletz on Feb 11, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It says that

Noreen Harrington informed Saul Katz, David Katz, and Peter Stamos that her research- which, according to a New York Times article on the same subject, was based not on evidence, but her hunch and expert opinion (one that ultimately was correct on this issue, but isn’t perfectly correct, mind you)- led her to believe that there was funny business going on in Ezra Merkin’s funds, because he was cashing in at the end of every month and whatever other ‘problematic practices’, and that she believed he was funneling money that was invested with him back into Bernie Madoff’s overall, larger Ponzi scheme. In what is written in that story alone, there is nothing about them (the Katzs, Peter Stamos, or the Wilpons) knowing full well that Bernie Madoff was engaged in a Ponzi scheme, and going along with it. The article says that Noreen Harrington informed them (Saul Katz, David Katz, and Peter Stamos) that she believed Ezra Merkin was engaging in funny business. It didn’t say that she informed them that Bernie Madoff was involved in doing the same thing. That might just be me reading into a lack of outright statements in that article, though. Let’s assume she did, even though it didn’t say specifically she did.

Playing devil’s advocate more, the standard of willful blindness is not particularly strengthened In good theoretical faith, they might found her findings to be somehow flawed, whatever, for reasonable, believable reasons. The SEC concluded in 1999, 2000, and 2005 that, after investigating, Madoff and his subsidiaries did not violate any fraud laws (Oh, Brett, in retrospect!). If the SEC concluded there was no fraudulent wrongdoing in their investigations, why should the Wilpons, even if the CEO of Sterling Stamos seemed to believe so? Or, that they would believe that Madoff was perpetuating a massive illegal scheme based on the belief of a ‘mercenary’ (jumps from place to place) financial analyst who they only knew through business dealings, as opposed to Madoff, who the Wilpons and Katz knew for years and theoretically believed to be of good moral standing? And on.

It hardly presents a slam dunk that the Wilpons had foreknowledge about Madoff’s illegal financial dealings. It presents a chink in their armor, but it’s hardly conclusive- and, at the end of the day, the preponderance of the evidence doesn’t seem to be met.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 11, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Keeping issues separate

1/ Almost zero chance of Wilpons caught in a fraud charge.

2/ Picard argument that they cannot reclaim any remaining funds in their accounts because they took out more than they put in is greatly strengthened by their recklessness. I forget the amount involved but it was serious money.

3/ Picard’s argument that they owe money to other victims is somewhat stronger than it looked at first. If I remember correctly, he wanted $300 million but not positive.

4/ Regardless, it weakens their financial standing even more, and could help force a sale. This is getting close to Frank McCourt situation.

by crmorris on Feb 12, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

All he can collect is $83.3M

The $83.3M amount is all he can collect based on recklessness or negligence. The only way he can go beyond that is the fraud charge, or “willful blindness”. But the elements of “willful blindness” are you would have to show both that Katz believed that Madoff was insolvent or a fraud, and that he took deliberate action to avoid being definitively informed of it.

If you look at the filing from Sterling though, they point out that Harrington also testified that said that she “could be wrong” and she had no “hard tangible facts”. And then she also testified that neither Katz nor Stamos believed her. Both of those can be used to argue against “willful blindness”.

If this is the best they have, Sterling could still even win this portion of the suit on summary judgment without a trial.

by acerimusdux on Feb 12, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Merkin

There is nothing illegal about having a feeder fund (although gross negligence in this case, probably). Also, going to cash each month is due to the requirement that each fund files a 13F and discloses all of their holdings – so it is not illegal, just a raised a red flag.

"RBI’s does measure something – Wins."
-Bayonne Mets Fan on MMO

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 12, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Key is if she

Let them know that Erza Merkin’s investments were being invested into Bernie Madoff’s overall greater ponzi scheme. They were, as is being claimed, trying to diversify their holdings and move some of their assets away from Madoff. If they knowingly moving them to an investment group (Merkin) that was just funneling back into Madoff’s funds, that would be very suspicious. It still wouldn’t prove that they knew Madoff was engaging in illegal activities, but it builds the case against them.

The article doesn’t say explicitly if she made Katz, Katz and Stamos aware that Ezra Merkin was a feeder to Madoff. If her recommendation that they not do business with Merkin was because of the red flags that she noticed in his practices, Madoff is not tied in, and it’s a really weak link. If her recommendation was that they not do business with Merkin because, on top of the eyebrow-raising practices, he was also transfering the money invested with him into funds managed by Bernie Madoff, then it helps build the case against them. Why would they re-invest with Madoff (in a roundabout way) when they were trying to diversify? Even if they they were told, though, it still doesn’t do much to prove that they knew beforehand that Madoff was engaging in illegal financial practices.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 12, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Hard to imagine she/they didnt know

Based on the cluster analysis, Merkin and Madoff would have shown up as identical return profiles (less Merkin’s fees off the top, in his case).

Good question on why they would diversify away from Madoff by going to a fund of funds that invested exclusively in Madoff. I have no guesses there.

"RBI’s does measure something – Wins."
-Bayonne Mets Fan on MMO

by Dandy Salderson on Feb 13, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

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