2012 Amazin' Avenue Top 50 Mets Prospects: #10-6

It only took us a couple weeks but we've finally broken into the top ten. As with the last couple of rounds we'll break these last two segments into groups of five as many of these guys warrant extended discussion and analysis.
Now if you've been away or asleep or just plain negligent, you can catch up on the rest of the series by following these links:
#50-41 | #40-31 | #30-21 | #20-16 | #15-11
Or scroll to the bottom of the page for a compiled version of the rankings. But for now, let's dive into the top ten:
10) OF Juan Lagares
2011 Season
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
STL
FSL
.338
82
308
51
104
15
6
7
49
152
21
47
5
6
.380
.494
.873
BIN
EAS
.370
38
162
21
60
11
3
2
22
83
5
29
10
2
.391
.512
.903
Minors
.349
120
470
72
164
26
9
9
71
235
26
76
15
8
.383
.500
.883
2011 Offseason Leagues
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
PEJ
AFL
.303
15
66
8
20
4
1
2
18
32
4
10
4
1
.343
.485
.828
AGU
DWL
.125
9
16
0
2
0
0
0
0
2
0
6
0
0
.125
.125
.250
Let’s discuss the most divisive prospect in the system. The 22-yr old Lagares blossomed in 2011, opening eyes with an excellent performance where he batted nearly .340 in Hi-A and then topping it with a downright incredible showing in his Double-A debut where he batted .370 in 38 games. And if that wasn’t enough he went on to post very solid totals out in the prospect-studded Arizona Fall League. In short, it was an excellent season. And even shorter, it was unsustainable.
That’s because, as we all know, it is unlikely Lagares will match the .439 BABIP he posted in Binghamton. Or even the .379 he put up in St. Lucie. His sparkling average is in line for serious regression come 2012. And it doesn’t help that he’s never been known for his patient approach. But here’s why I buy in: First off, you don’t just bat .370 at Double-A, the level that most believe makes a big leaguer. No it wasn’t even 40 games, but then again you don’t just bat .340 at Hi-A. There was clearly luck involved but let’s not also pretend that scouting reports about an emerging hit tool don’t exist. Or that they didn’t exist even back in the days – before years of injuries and underperformance – that this kid was a very highly thought of IFA. Thanks to a rush job on par with FMart or Ruben Tejada as well as nagging injuries his skills haven’t had the chance to shine through. But now that he’s finally catching up to his context the highly athletic outfielder is either finally unleashing his excellent offensive ability or he’s getting very lucky. I’m going with the former. Now he doesn’t possess a ton of home run power and his speed is good but not great so his ceiling certainly isn’t through the roof. But I can still see a 15/20 athlete who can bat between .280-300 and capably handle center on most days, in the mold of the Cardinals’ Jon Jay.
Why He's Here: As I stated, this didn’t just come out of nowhere. Even when rushed Lagares has always shown excellent contact ability. What’s more, he consistently showed a propensity to BABIP well over .300 (since ’09 he’s at a cumulative total around .340). And the scouting buzz jibes, focused around the bat speed his excellent line-drive stroke creates, especially as he’s added muscle to a long, athletic build. Even better was the significant jump he took in walks. 6.3% may still seem low by other standards but it represented a 200+% increase over his 2010 mark as coaches talked about the importance he placed on that aspect of his game. Add in the fact that he can capably handle all three outfield positions and it’s tough to hold him back in the rankings.
Frankly, beyond the big three pitchers there is still not a lot of proven top tier talent in this system. Yes there are guys with better fundamentals – Havens. Or higher major league ceilings – Nimmo or Puello. But are there that many guys that have proven themselves at a high enough level to displace one of the top athletes in the system coming off a season when he batted .350 against advanced pitching? In my opinion there are not and so flawed or not he’s a definite top ten guy for me.
9) 2B Reese Havens
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
STL
FSL
.273
3
11
1
3
2
0
0
2
5
2
5
0
0
.385
.455
.839
BIN
EAS
.289
58
211
37
61
15
1
6
26
96
27
59
2
0
.372
.455
.827
Minors
.288
61
222
38
64
17
1
6
28
101
29
64
2
0
.373
.455
.828
What’s left to say about Havens? Once again he showed us he has a great approach at the plate, as evidenced by yet another 11+% walk rate. Once again he showed us he can hit for excellent power from the left side, thanks to another .150+ ISO. His average is still being held down by a highish K-rate but that’s nothing critical. He continues to project as an excellent mix of on-base skills, power and fair defensive ability at second base. But once again he failed to stay on the field, appearing in only 61 games which was unfortunately the second highest mark in his career.
Last winter he had a procedure done which was purported to eliminate the chronic oblique issues. Yet in 2011 he still missed time due to back problems -- thought to be associated with lingering conditioning issues. But he went into the offseason healthy. And now that he’s had his first winter sans rehab in quite some time and now that the major health issue is supposedly behind him, it’d be nice to see him reach the 100-game plateau in 2012. Especially since it would also likely lead to a major league call-up. But if that doesn’t happen and he indeed suffers more health woes, it’s time to start seriously questioning whether or not Havens will ever be durable enough to have a meaningful big league career.
8) OF Cesar Puello
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
STL
FSL
.259
117
441
67
114
21
5
10
50
175
18
103
19
9
.313
.397
.710
For the second year in a row Puello ranks eighth on our list. However, that is not as much a commentary on his growth – or lack thereof -- as it is the growth of the system, namely some key additions at the top as well as breakout campaigns from a couple of others. Puello himself did indeed progress in a few areas in 2012, however not without some give-back in others. First and foremost, the Mets finally heeded our calls and moved Puello to center full-time, where he seemed to play well enough for his first extended look at the position. The shift up the defensive spectrum alone helps his value, a season or two proving he’s legit there would really give him a boost. Additionally, the 20-yr old made good on the promise of more in-game power that scouts had sworn was there since ’09. After posting an .067 ISO in 2010, Puello more than doubled that total -- in the pitcher-friendly FSL no less.
However, while the power was a very welcome sign he robbed Peter to pay Paul a bit there as he saw significant regression in both his walks (3.7%) and strikeouts (21.1%). He’ll have to prove that he can indeed hit with authority without selling out those other ratios. In addition, as I warned last winter the excellent stolen base speed from 2010 (45 sb’s) dropped in 2011 as an already bulky kid just continued to add muscle. As the speed declined so too did the BABIP (2010: .363 | 2011: .311) and subsequently so did the average.
Now ultimately, there is still more reason to be pleased here than not. Like Flores, Puello was one of the youngest players in the entire FSL and is one of a small handful of players that could hold his own as a 20-yr old. Additionally, though you wouldn’t see it in his K/BB he showed good growth in the second half of the season, adding nearly 50 points to his average and over 150 for an .800 even OPS. And in terms of ceiling, Puello gives you a legitimate shot for at least four of the five majors tools all from the center field position. Yet he’ll have to show even more with the bat in 2012 as he’s currently more tools than ability and as we’ve seen so many times before poor plate discipline can easily derail a young hitter before they ever hit their stride.
7) OF Brandon Nimmo
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
MTS
GCL
.241
7
29
5
7
0
0
2
4
13
3
9
0
0
.313
.448
.761
KNG
APP
.111
3
9
0
1
0
0
0
0
1
3
5
0
0
.333
.111
.444
Minors
.211
10
38
5
8
0
0
2
4
14
6
14
0
0
.318
.368
.687
There's not much I can tell you that hasn't already been hashed and re-hashed ever since the Mets made Nimmo their first round selection in 2011 (13th overall). The 18-yr old from Cheyenne, Wyoming possesses the kind of tools and raw athleticism that make scouts drool. Previously I said that Puello had a four-tool upside; well Nimmo is a potential five-tool guy, provided his bat develops like the Mets hope. There's not much -- or really anything -- to take from his brief ten game debut so all we can really go off of are the scouting reports.
Nimmo utilizes a very nice, quick swing from the left side and has been praised for excellent hand-eye coordination. He features a slight natural uppercut which when paired with his wiry, 6'3", 185 lbs frame definitely portends for legitimate power as he fills out. He has enough speed to allow him to man center for now, though a shift to right field is definitely a possibility as he's not a burner. Fortunately he also features more than enough arm strength for right. In terms of ceiling Nimmo has the kind of raw potential the Mets haven't seen in an outfielder this young since another wiry young lefty took the organization by storm. And while Nimmo doesn't have Strawberry upside -- frankly who does? -- he certainly does have a chance to be a star level talent.
In terms of his ranking, I'm holding him back a bit for now because 1. As I've made clear I'm very wary with track records this short and 2. Nimmo has even more risk associated to him thanks to the whole 'lack of competition' angle. The scouting reports are great and all but players this far already have the chips stacked against them and in this case there are even a few extra ones, making the chance to bust a bit too high to jump into the top five this soon. Just a little bit of success and an affirmation of scouting reports and he could be looking down on the entire system this time next year.
6) IF Jordany Valdespin
2011 Season
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
BIN
EAS
.297
107
404
62
120
24
3
15
51
195
21
68
33
14
.341
.483
.824
BUF
INT
.280
27
107
7
30
8
0
2
9
44
4
25
4
4
.304
.411
.715
Minors
.294
134
511
69
150
32
3
17
60
239
25
93
37
18
.333
.468
.801
2011 Offseason Leagues
Team
League
AVG
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS
LIC
DWL
.252
34
107
11
27
3
3
0
15
36
7
17
10
3
.304
.336
.641
Much like Lagares, the 24-yr old Valdespin is a bit of a polarizing figure thanks to his hit-or-miss skill set. Specifically, his awesome raw ability was on display big time in 2011 as he finally put together all of the tools that he'd only flashed in the past. He set career highs in doubles, homers, stolen bases, slugging and OPS and most impressively did so between Double and Triple-A. Using his quick, buggy whip-style stroke from the left side -- think Brett Gardner -- he was able to shoot balls to all fields while creating more than enough bat speed to pull them over the wall. In short, he showcased the kind of all-around offensive skill set that you just don't often see from middle infielders, minors or majors.
However, his dynamic style of play can tend to border on out-of-control and nowhere is that more clear than in the field. The highly athletic Valdespin possesses more than enough quickness and foot speed to handle short but thus far he's had a very hard time limiting the errors there or even from second, where he's seen a lot more reps. Additionally, as has been his issue in the past his plate discipline was not good. He walked in just 3.5% of his plate appearances with Buffalo while striking out over 22%. However, he did show a very solid improvement in both categories in his time with Binghamton, though he remained susceptible to good breaking stuff. Ultimately, I think of Valdespin like the anti-Tejada: He's old, not disciplined -- in the field or at the plate -- and isn't known for great makeup. However, he features the kind of all-around athleticism, broad skill set and subsequent production in the high minors that Ruben can only dream of. While his flaws can obviously undermine him, his realistic ceiling likely resembles the 2011 4.0 fWAR version of Erick Aybar.
Why He's Here: This ranking resembles the Lagares ranking because once again, despite his flaws I find it very hard to look past the impressive performance Valdespin had against upper level pitching in 2011. You can make a laundry list of things not to like about his profile but the bottom line is that he flashed legitimate 20/30 potential, which is a lot more than can be said from most of the guys in this range and from a middle infielder is incredible as it is rare. He may not be able to bat you much above .270-.280 in the majors but as I pointed out, I was intrigued by the improvement he showed in plate discipline. Like Lagares the final numbers might not have looked great (4.8% BB-rate with Bingo) but the % improvement over 2010 did.
I've heard many cite Valdespin's advanced age when dismissing his development but it should be noted that he was a late-comer to pro ball, making his stateside debut at age 20. In terms of career plate appearances he's still only at 1555, compared to 1341 from the 20-yr old Cesar Puello. And while there's been limited research on the subject, it's clear that teenagers don't have the market cornered on the ability to improve. And that goes for defense as well, especially considering Valdespin's athleticism. Paul DePodesta broached that very subject, stating his firm belief that infield defense is one of the skills that can improve the most, the fastest with repetitions in the minors. Put it all together and you've got a dynamic MI prospect who can affect the game in a whole host of ways and while it might be a bumpy ride, that kind of ceiling from a player so close to the majors is extremely valuable.
____________________________________________________________________
Compiled Top 50 Mets prospect rankings:
6. MI Jordany Valdespin
7. OF Brandon Nimmo
8. OF Cesar Puello
9. 2B Reese Havens
10. OF Juan Lagares
11. SS Wilmer Flores
12. RHP Michael Fulmer
13. RHP Cory Mazzoni
14. C Albert Cordero
15. CF Matt den Dekker
16. 3B Zach Lutz
17. 3B Aderlin Rodriguez
18. RHP Akeel Morris
19. LHP Darin Gorski
20. OF Cory Vaughn
21. 3B Jefry Marte
22. RHP Domingo Tapia
23. SS Phillip Evans
24. SS WIlfredo Tovar
25. RHP Collin McHugh
26. OF Darrell Ceciliani
27. SS Danny Muno
28. LHP Josh Edgin
29. LHP Jack Leathersich
30. LHP Juan Urbina
31. RHP Erik Goeddel
32. RHP Chris Schwinden
33. RHP Josh Stinson
34. IF Robbie Shields
35. LHP Mark Cohoon
36. RHP Brett Pill
37. RHP Armando Rodriguez
38. RHP Logan Verrett
39. SS Juan Carlos Gamboa
40. SS Bradley Marquez
41. RHP Taylor Whitenton
42. RHP Greg Peavey
43. RHP Luis Mateo
44. RHP Rafael Montero
45. C Cam Maron
46. RHP Nick Carr
47. LHP Robert Carson
48. OF Travis Taijeron
49. OF Gilbert Gomez
50. RHP Ryan Fraser
51*. OF Javier Rodriguez
52*. RHP Brad Holt
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Comments
Havens
I hope the team medical staff is very careful getting him out of the bubble and then unwrapping him from the bubble wrap that he should have been in all off-season.
Husker/Giants/Mets fan living behind enemy lines.
Still think Havens will be a high quality MLB player.
by Putnan Prince on Feb 9, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
With his injuries
I thought you’d say he’s a DH-in-training. But Havens is different.
Astro Traveler
Surgery should have solved his recurring abdominal pulls.This kid has a smooth swing and the ball jumps off
his bat.Plus he can play defense unlike some of our DH’s.
by Putnan Prince on Feb 10, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Valdespin
I like the Eric Aybar comp, and if he can reign it in some at SS and be more controlled on defense, I think he has to be the SS of the future moving forward. Tejada has a great eye, and is great fundamentally, but we have a chance to replace a lot of what we lost in Reyes with Valdespin. I really hope he pans out and we see him on the major league team soon.
You always root for laundry. Of course, you'd like to have good players in that laundry as well.
It takes more than just athleticism and reps to become a good SS
I really doubt he sticks there. My gut says there’s a better chance that Wilmer Flores becomes an above-average 3B than than Valdespin becomes an above-average 2B.
From everything I've read
His problem defensively is his “out of control” style. Like he tries to do too much, or gets too flashy for his own good. If he can get focused and just make the simple play, maybe we got something there. It’s just my wishful thinking.
You always root for laundry. Of course, you'd like to have good players in that laundry as well.
Flores
I assume you’re saying above average defensively. Because the jury’s still out on whether or not Flores has enough power in his bat to be an above average 3B offensively. And we already know Valdespin has the bat that could be above average offensively at either middle infield position.
You always root for laundry. Of course, you'd like to have good players in that laundry as well.
Yes, I was talking about defense
Offense is a whole nother question. When Valdespin was the same age Wilmer is now, he’d just hit .245/.369/.338 in the Dominican Summer League.
Wilmer has his whole baseball life ahead of him, and most of it is not going to take place in the power-crippling environments of St. Lucie and Savannah, where he’s been playing since he was 17. I think when he finally gets the promotion to AA, we’re going to see a power surge from him.
Valdespin is closer to the majors, but he’s still got huge question marks and less development time to work with. And remember that an offensive burst like his can be a mirage. Chin-Lung Hu hit .325/.364/.507 at the same age and level.
I hear you
But I’m not really concerned about the power numbers in A ball, because as you mentioned he’s been playing in power crippling environments. Just stating that we don’t the power that is on it’s way will still be acceptable at a corner position. But, as we saw last year, 3B isn’t the power position it used to be. So maybe if he becomes 10-15 HR hitter that will be great when it’s paired with above average defense.
I’m not crazy about Flores mostly because I didn’t see any improvement at the same level he played at the year before. He’s still young for the league, but you can only excuse it so much I think. Even if you can’t expect more home run power, I would’ve expected more extra base hits for more impressive triple slash line this year. But there’s still plenty of time for him to grow and become who we hope he will.
You always root for laundry. Of course, you'd like to have good players in that laundry as well.
And Valdespin
Could go the route of Chin-Lung Hu. But I hope he doesn’t. And I see all that athleticism and how he could contribute across the board and it makes me dream of having a player again who can do it at the major league level.
You always root for laundry. Of course, you'd like to have good players in that laundry as well.
How can you say that we already know Valdespin has the bat?
This is a kid who hit .280/.304/.411 in Triple-A and struck out 25% of the time at the age of 24.
His line at Double-A is better, .297/.341/.483, but I wouldn’t consider anything a sure thing.
by Brian Mangan on Feb 10, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I love Valdespin but the idea that he'd ever really contribute is too wishful
I think you’re looking more at an Alex Gonzalez type at his best … Valdespin’s career minors line is .287/.324/.436 which looks right to me.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzaal01.shtml
Useful to a team if he can play defense, but I don’t think he can do that either.
Lagares
I guess, I mean 10 isn’t a crazy ranking for Lagares, given the relative top heaviness of the system. Depending on what exactly you want to give more weight to, I could see your 10-25 being shaken up any number of ways. And KG has Lagares at 5, and I respect Goldstein’s eye. For me, I just don’t see any underlying change in the skillset that justifies the sort of dewey-eyed optimism about Lagares. We all know his BABIP is going to come down to more reasonable levels, and when that happens, even if you think he is a .300 hitter in the big leagues, his lack of secondary skills makes it very difficult to project him as an above-average regular in a corner.
I realize that he is pretty atheletic and could probably play some CF, but if he was really going to be a major league CFer, he’d have played more CF by now. I guess I could see him turning into a poor man’s Marquis Grissom at some point, which isn’t really a bad outcome. But I think he’s a decent fourth outfielder in the end, without Den Dekker’s ability to play an elite CF.
Oddly, I really like the agressive Valdespin ranking, even though he has many of the same issues as Lagares. But I think the power spike is legit enough that he can be a 50 power guy in the bigs, that coupled with his premium position makes it more likely he can stick. I think he will end up okay at 2B, too. He’s certainly looked athletic enough. If anything, when I’ve seen him the biggest issue has been trying too hard to make spectacular plays, or getting a little lazy with his footwork, throws. Those are at least fixable.
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@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Feb 9, 2012 1:11 PM EST reply actions
How much was Lagares blocked at CF though?
He only got converted to the OF a few seasons ago, and Wally was singing his praises as a defensive OFer this past summer in Bingo.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
He was blocked, certainly
He had Den Dekker to deal with primarily this year, and obviously Den Dekker is going to play CF over anyone else in the system. That’s unlikely to change this year, as he’ll be blocked by Den Dekker and Kurt depending on how he progresses. I just think if they thought he was a CF long term they would get him some reps there. He played there a little less than half the time in 2010 and very rarely in 2009.
He might be athletic enough to hack it there a few days a week, and I think he will be average→ above in a corner, I just think he’s a tweener in the end unless that bat/discipline develops more
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@jeffpaternostro
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Feb 9, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Valdespin ahead of Puello and Nimmo is understandable
But I wouldn’t have gone in that direction. He’s a great athlete but he looks like he would get killed by big league pitching.
How close is he to the big leagues? I can see him being Angel Berroa’s rookie season or the rest of Angel Berroa’s career, neither would surprise me.
37 - 14 - 41 - 31 - 17 - 42 - SHEA
by piazza62 on Feb 9, 2012 1:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think Valdespin gets major league action this year
Either he forces his way onto the scene (hopefully) at 2B, making Murphy Mr. Super Utility man again, or he gets a cup of joe in September. It’s possible he surprises us all by improving at SS enough to stick, just doubt it personally.
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
What to do with Havens?
Would it be feasible to have him moved to short without a massive drop in his defensive ability up the middle? At shortstop, a platoon situation involving Havens (L) and Tejada® might be a way to get Havens’ bat and Tejada’s defense in the game as often as possible. The only thing is, Tejada doesn’t really have noticeable platoon splits or anything (.248 in total, but .185 in his bad 2010 and .289 in his hot 2011), so there’s no pressing need or anything to have him not face RHPs.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions
Wasn't he moved to 2B so he could adjust to the position as he rose quickly through the system
He wasn’t supposed to take this long to arrive, and only injuries have prevented him. I was wondering the same thing as you. If Havens showed he could handle SS, I think Tejada becomes our backup MI, which is probably more appropriate for him
2012 New York Mets, World Series Champions!
Nice thought
But havens is not a major league SS. He will have average range for second, which means below average for short. Would he absolutely flounder there? No probably not but it’d look a lot like Justin turner at short, which just isn’t a realistic solution long-term.
by Rob Castellano on Feb 10, 2012 8:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
How do you know this?
He was drafted as a SS and moved immediately because of Reyes. He then got hurt and nobody really has gotten to see him play.
some inaccuracies here
He didn’t move immediately; he played 99 games at short, his first two pro seasons. In ‘09 with PSL he made 21 errors in 91 games for an ugly .952 fielding %. But that’s not the biggest issue; it was the fact that he didn’t profile as a major league shortstop. Didn’t/doesn’t have the lateral quickness or the instincts.
This from BA directly after he was drafted:
Havens’ bat will have to produce because he does not project as a big league shortstop. His range is below average and his problems with his footwork has some scouts wondering if he can handle second base.
Any reference to Havens in his first couple season always included the fact that he looked awkward at short and was destined for second. That’s why he moved position; had nothing to do with Jose Reyes.
by Rob Castellano on Feb 10, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
If he gives Justin Turner defense, I think that absolutely is fine in a platoon-like situation
Unlike Turner, Havens is a decent enough hitter. Might not be the ideal optimum situation, but given that everything is so clogged for him, I’ll take whatever to have some kind of role for him, assuming he doesn’t get traded.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!" Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
Ryder or Riot #WWWYKI
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 458 posts (08/24/11)
3rd Place- 2011 AAOP Contest | 1st place- 2012 AAOP Contest
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 10, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
I am just inordinately happy that our system has improved so much
It seems not so long ago, that our best prospects were just not that good. I can’t wait for Spring Training top begin
The Key Difference
Seems to be the position these guys play. A few years ago we had three first basemen raking — Murphy, Evans, Ike. Now we’re got some pitchers, CF and middle infielders.
We just need some catchers.
I have some doubts about position prospects that post <5% BB rate, plus high-ish K and BABIP, on how their skills will translate facing ML pitching.
Jon Jay walked around 8% and kept his strikeouts in check in the minors (15% or lower). With good contact rates, he puts a lot of balls in play.
Sure there are players that succeed, but they have some prodigious power, contact rates or defense, and they look like the exception.
In lobby for: Jaime Cevallos, Zack Lutz, orange unis and Rickroll as the 7th inning song.
The Unwritten Rules of AA
Valdespin, Puello, Lagares, Flores
I thought Omar’s plan to recruit Latinos was a bust.
I'm unconvinced he did significantly better then the average GM.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
2012 Amazin' Avenue Offseason Plan: 2nd place
Doing As Well as the Average GM
Would be better than what you hear, though perhaps worse that what he promised after signing Pedro.
Is recruiting Latino talent a unique "plan"
or just something GMs do, because they’re GMs?
37 - 14 - 41 - 31 - 17 - 42 - SHEA
What special aqusitions did he make in Latin America that other GMs from 2005 to 2010 didn't?
Mejia is the only guy I can think of off the top of my head who was specifically wooed by stuff the Mets did in Latin America (specifically, signing Pedro Martinez). Sadly, to counter that, they screwed the pooch with Ubaldo Jimenez, so tit-for-tat, I guess.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
And then proceeded to do everything possible to screw up Mejia.
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While the buck ultimatley falls on Omar,
I think the blame falls more on Jerry Manuel and possibly the media, to be honest. When 2010 Spring Training was midway through, Omar was still saying that Mejia was not going to be on the Major League team, and that although he was pitching impressively (to mostly other Minor Leaguers and invitees, if you look at the box scores), he still was going to be going to AA/AAA when camp broke. It was very late that Mejia ended up on the 25-man roster, and after Jerry insisted time and time again that he demands Jenrry on the team, and (presumably) a bunch of media personalities continued beating that drum. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jerry pressured Omar into having Mejia on the ML team, because he (Jerry) was on hot seat and wanted all the tools to show that he could manage the Mets to a winning record and so on. Omar gets the blame for giving in, but…That whole situation was very weird.
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
That's true.
He and Collins were in the minors/starter camp. Jerry and Jeff were in the majors/reliever camp.
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And of course, that whole thing spawned the now infamous
“I want to win now, not three years from now” quote from KB. At least we got a meme out of it, I guess.
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by Steve Schreiber on Feb 9, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Duh, duh, duh!
I couldn’t remember who in the media was really gung-ho about him being on the team in 2010 for maximum immediate impact (or, really, in retrospect, lack-thereof), so just left media as generic. How could I forget Kev!?
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 10, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
I don't really see how you can rank Nieuwenhuis ahead of Puello and Nimmo
both of whom have higher ceilings and are ahead of the age curve. Nieuwenhuis probably doesn’t have enough contact skills to stick as a regular outfielder.
If he can pick up were he left off before the injury
Kirk is for real.
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Agreed with Puello
I’ve come to like Puello. He still does have a bunch of question marks that need to be more fully answered, that will have a big impact on where he ranks as a prospect- will he stick in center and continue to show average-to-above-average defense, can he raise his BB rate, can he cut down on his K rate, is his SB indicative of less speed (which would lower his BABIP and batting average, as mentioned). Nieuwenhuis, he is not as purely talented, and is older, but his total body of work in the Minors is more advanced (cumulative .280/.354/.465 line with 2 impressive years in AA and AAA ball, as opposed to Puello’s cumulative .282/.349/.384 line all below AA).
Regarding Nimmo, he has no body of work in the MiLB, or in professional baseball outside American Legion games. He has plenty of athleticism and talent, but nothing to show for all of it- being ranked 7th on purely age and talent in and of itself speaks a lot of his potential, I think (or the thinness of the system, but I don’t think that is the case here).
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 9, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Scout.com/Inside Pitch has Nieuwenhuis (6) ahead of Nimmo (11), but behind Puello (5).
I think even 11 is too good for someone with (essentially) no service time. I have Nimmo in the low 20s. Tools don’t impress me; the scrap heap is filled with guys whose tools never lived up to their hype.
well, tools are a huge part of prospect evaluation
nobody that gets drafted has any service time, that doesn’t stop front offices and scouts from putting toolsy draftees like Harper and Starling into their top 10 lists.
by secret defense on Feb 10, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Did you have Harvey in the 20's back in 2010 too?
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I think he's being overly harsh on penalizing Nimmo
but to be fair there is a difference between projecting a high school and a college player.
Fine.
Did he have Harper in the 20’s for the Nationals?
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I don't think about other teams' farm systems.
When Nimmo signed I didn’t see any ‘Now We’re saved!’ stories, like I did for Harvey (who I had around 10) or Harper. The reactions I was reading were more along the lines of, "Well, at least he signed, so we didn’t waste the pick.’ This thread contains the first reports about Nimmo that might be described as ‘glowing’. Most of what I’m seeing runs ‘Might be interesting; too soon to tell.’ Nobody (at least nobody I read) was saying that about Harvey. He was being projected as a two starter if he didn’t blow up, and a one if everything broke right. (Everybody’s floor is the trash heap.)
Toolsy guys are a dime a dozen. Guys who actually produce something with their tools impress me. Remember, we picked up a couple of ex-first rounders as minor league free agents last month. Those guys had all the tools in the world, but I bet they didn’t make your top twenty.
Kirk and Nimmo are 2 completely different sets to compare directly. It's a matter of how much you value tools/production.
Kirk is already playing at AAA, some reports say he overperform or make the most of his limited tools. Even though his game has flaws, there is a degree of certainty of what to expect from him and he is readily available to the ML.
Nimmo is all tools and no pro track record. He could become a superstar or bust, but he’ll still take some years to develop. As he advances through the minors, his rank will be adjusted accordingly. If he doesn’t produce or improve as he goes, he’ll be downgraded like F-Mart. If he does meet the highest expectations, he’ll jump like Harvey.
Kirk and Puello are less far apart, but they only have a A+ season in common. It would be interesting to compare Puello with other prospects with similar skillsets (inside/outside Mets organization) who were signed at the same age and became ML regulars. Then we will have a baseline of his expected progression (age, level, peripherals like K:BB, power development, contact rates, etc).
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Nimmo, Puello, Kirk
You guys have hit on pretty much everything as far as the CF discussion. As someone said above, it depends what you value but I find it hard to place nimmo any higher without any track record. I felt 7 was even sort of high but the historical impact of first round talents — legit ones, not Eddie kunz — especially top 10-15 guys has been disproportionately high at the major league level and nimmo certainly has all the tools to live up to that. But again, I can’t go higher sight unseen.
Puello does indeed have a higher ceiling than Kirk but he’s light years from reaching it and additionally his floor is also far lower. Right now he’s nice mix of good — though I wouldn’t say great — tools. His power might reach a 50 and his speed is only a bit higher than that. But in terms of actual skills he’s still quite raw — expected for a 20-yr old — and still looks sort of like a mess at the plate. Like we’ve seen countless times, much more often than not a kid with a bad approach at the plate struggles as he climbs the ladder, not the other way around.
Meanwhile the point about poor contact for Nieuwenhuis is accurate, strike outs will always be an issue for him which means you can expect averages around .260-.280 early on. But he’s done some very good things with his walk rate and he’s posted an ISO at or near .200 at four of his last fives stops, which for a CF is great. Does he have the defensive chops to stick there long-term? Probably not but the whole lack of tools discussion gets overblown with him; I’ve seen him in person many times and he has very good athleticism, he just doesn’t have any one standout tool. Plus, he’s more muscles than you typically see in center. But even if he’s only there for his first few seasons, a kid who boasts 20/15 potential (based on a track record at the highest levels, which shouldn’t be overlooked), coupled with an 11-14% walk rate is a very valuable thing.
by Rob Castellano on Feb 10, 2012 8:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
lagares
was born on the exact same day as me (or so they claim….) so he’s automatically my favorite mets prospect
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