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Open Thread - Game 86: Mets vs Pirates (07/08/2005) on FSNY

 Starting Pitchers

 J. Fogg
Pit
vs.
 V. Zambrano
NYM
4-4 Record 4-7
4.42 ERA 3.80
51 K 58
28 BB 49
15 HR 5
Lineups
 Pittsburgh  New York
M. Lawton, RF J. Reyes, SS
F. Sanchez, 3B M. Cameron, RF
J. Bay, LF C. Beltran, CF
R. Mackowiak, CF C. Floyd, LF
J. Castillo, 2B D. Wright, 3B
D. Ward, 1B M. Anderson, 1B
R. Doumit, C R. Castro, C
J. Wilson, SS M. Cairo, 2B
J. Fogg, P V. Zambrano, P
Willie Randolph said the other day that Ramon Castro was going to start catching more often than he has been, so I guess he wasn't kidding. Jason Bay is batting .308/.393/.562 for the Bucs. He was traded by the Mets to the Padres for Steve Reed. He's 26. *cries*

Follow the game online (opens in new window):
- MLB.com Gameday
- Yahoo! Box Score
- ESPN.com Box Score
- CBS SportsLine GameCenter

0 recs | Comment 183 comments

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Nice time to start a sweep
We want some MO (and not more Vaughn) carrying us through the break.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 6:57 PM EDT   0 recs

And a good way to start
Jose walks on 7 pitches, without a swing.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 7:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Screw up by the umpires
Big time. Steal, lets get him home.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 7:09 PM EDT   0 recs

Reyes got called out at second
but the ball hit reyes the dirt and went away the ump didn't notice and niether did jose, so while he walked bacc to the dugout they tagged him out. The first base ump awarded reyes second and he scored on a bulk when reyes went chargin down the line.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 7:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thx eric
I'm on gameday.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 7:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pirates baseball
Only if Reyes had some kind of OBP.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 7:15 PM EDT   0 recs

Anyone get the impression that
Marlon is earning himself the 2b position?

He plays an exciting brand of baseball, with steals and decent defense and even an inside-the-park homerun. He's hitting consistently over .300...and while some of that is pinch hitting it's getting a bit too regular to dismiss it as situational or even platooning. His lefty bat is useful, especially with Willieball...

Simpler question...would anyone prefer to see KazMat getting starts instead of Marlon?

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 7:34 PM EDT   0 recs

is his d good enough
to play regularly, mets may look to improve here via trade
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 7:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

in the short term
i think willie just going to pick one of the 1 of the 4 by who hitting well and who is pitching that night
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 7:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course not
Marlon is the man.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 7:44 PM EDT   0 recs

You were good
you didn't jinx the no-no thru 11 batters.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 7:57 PM EDT   0 recs

it zambrano
i know hes pitched well but the chance of him pitching a no-no are about the same as rey ordonez winning the batting crown
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Didn't Shea Rey
hit .320 or something into August one year after he became Bay Rey?

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i don' think it was that
late in the season
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If beltran swings at the first pitch again
I'm lose it fo real.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 7:58 PM EDT   0 recs

The 8 hole
Cairo's getting a hit and then just being stranded brings up the issue of the 8 hole and what type of hitter should hit there.

I see two common scenarios: what we just saw, 1 out or 2 out and the 8 hitter comes up and unless they homer they are unlikely to score or drive in many runs (the high-OBP players hitting earlier in the order, one presumes) or they come up with 0 out and the pitcher bunts them to second hoping the leadoff guy (not usually an RBI-type hitter) can drive them home.

So that makes me think the 8 hole is perfectly suited for one of the Dave Kingman types, who either hits homers or strikes out. Because if there are 1 or 2 outs you want this guy to hit a homer and clear the bases because otherwise his production is likely going to be wasted there. If he strikes out, inning over and maybe the pitcher leads off or just follows with the third out, but that's not necessarily the 8-batters fault.

Usually these Kingman types hit 5th, 6th, or worst of all, cleanup, and they generally kill rallies there nestled amongst high-OBP guys. One has to imagine you want to play all or nothing with your 8-hole batter, if you can convince these ego-laden heavy hitters to play for you there.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:11 PM EDT   0 recs

problem
with this is that in the national league they dave kingman type would get walked all the time cause the pitchers on deck and no one going to risk giving up a hr to the "dave kingman" type
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

but you waste
the production of the dave kingman type
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think so
They aren't very productive by definition, and there are plenty of times in a game where walking him will either walk in a run or bring up a pinch hitter you don't want to face with men on base.

But never having the pitcher lead off is a massive win I have to imagine. That makes your leadoff batter the leadoff hitter far more often.

Just placing your worst hitter 8th, perhaps with a bit of speed for the bunting scenario, which is what lots of people do, just means you usually kill one rally and nip another in the bud the next inning.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

In other words
just as bunching your high-OBP guys in the order makes sense to provide rallies, bunching your surefire outs doesn't make sense either because it is certain to kill one rally and maybe two.

The Kingman type is mostly a surefire out, but the threat is severe enough that it doesn't count as one.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

to me
your worse hitter should bat 7th in the nl lineup because you usually can get pitches to hit in that spot and most of your rally have started at the top and scored already, the 8th hitter should be a guy decent plate displine who a weak hitter otherwise because he walk and clear the pitcher, your dave kingman type should probably bat in the 6th spot where he can occasionally deliver the coup de grace to rallies
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Kingman, by the way
Baseball Reference:

9th all time in strikeouts, 29th all time in homers.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

by definiton
if you bunch your high OBP guys then the low OBP are going to be bunched too because they have to hit in the spots not occupied by the high OBP guys
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Think
Yeah, but Kingman has a lifetime OBP of .302...he is a low OBP guy, and so what do you do with his fat SLG?

You put it in the 8 hole is what I'm saying.

(And by the way, that raises his OBP due to the IBBs...which is why Kong's OBP is over .300 anyway.)

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

what good does it do your lineup
to have a guy hitting solo hr in the 8th spot, we killed willie for batting vic diaz 8th when he was hot early in the year
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It scores a run is what it does.
And that's what your offense is trying to do.

When Diaz was hot, he was a high OBP guy.

Kingman types are available a dime a dozen in the minors. Every minor league team has one. What use are they? They never come up because of the low OBP. But in the national league, they can serve as pitcher clearers and base clearers, for cheap.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

why not bat him higher
and have hit a 3hr which may score 3 runs, reason those guys never come up (ie. brazell) because they can hit curveballs with the lousy plate displine, so they end up doing less than nothing in the majors
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Offense
Lets get it poppin this inning and get some runs.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 8:11 PM EDT   0 recs

mets just got a break
reyes never retouch 2nd on that bloop
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:16 PM EDT   0 recs

So Reyes stole, went back, and then went to 3rd
but didn't step on 2nd the second time across?

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah
basically
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think he officially
went back, one foot was past the second base bag.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 8:21 PM EDT   0 recs

wright might be in too far
wilson could steal third and he couldn't get back to cover
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:23 PM EDT   0 recs

Well the 6th is Zambrano's difficult inning
Like the 1st was for Leiter when he was here.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:28 PM EDT   0 recs

yeah if cammy
would have caught that ball the wilson hit the inning would be over already
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cubs sent down Corey Patterson?
Thats crazy, Ya'll heard about Preston Wilson going to Washington?
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 8:34 PM EDT   0 recs

yeah
he and dusty appearently had a not to pleasent discussion when he was benched the other day in favor of jerry hairston, dusty miscast him as he never had any business hitting at the top of the order and made his struggles worse, he was getting to kazmat like booing level in chitown
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

as for preston wilson
they definately need another hitter in the lineup esp. w/ no nick johnson, if they get wilson they can move wilkerson to 1st in the interim until nj gets back, colorado gonna unload him as they are probably the worse team in all of baseball and have no use for a highly paid CF
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

in that lineup
we saw this week they have about 3 guys who could be batting 8th
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yow
nice when the stand-in sings like the prima donna.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:36 PM EDT   0 recs

great understudy performance
by castro, encore
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

here we go again
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Oh come on
was that a bad error by our Future™?

We're just about to seal this thing...

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 8:49 PM EDT   0 recs

it was a play that should have
made it was tough but a play that shortshops make on a daily basis, slow hit grounder so he had to charge it and he just botched it after that
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 8:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lets hope Jose gets on again
So we can get that run bacc, Anybody going to see that fantastic 4 shit?
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 8:52 PM EDT   0 recs

I hope Jose
Doesn't watch Beltran when he comes to the olate, he has some awful Atbats. Any great Met colums in the papers today? If so i'll go read one now
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 8:59 PM EDT   0 recs

not really
crap met coverage when their on the road i noticed, too cheap to send writers out on the shuttle/acela, to see washington or lazy with the skanees in town and so many easy giambalco alive articles to write
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Would you walk Jason Bay?
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:03 PM EDT   0 recs

putting the tying run
on base, he's good but he isn't bonds/pulojs/valdy level yet
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

can the mets
just have a 6-1 win every once in while instead of the friggin scary games
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:03 PM EDT   0 recs

Looper's paying them
to give him save opportunities.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That was almost gone
Almost ain't good enough though.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:04 PM EDT   0 recs

i thought it was when he hit it
this ballpark seems to play like a pitcher park though, i thought the first castro ball was gone too
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Big ass center field fence
Watched the ball, Wright needed that hit he was slumpin a lil bit.
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:08 PM EDT   0 recs

Didn't Corey Paterson hit 30 homeuns last year?
Why is he hittin leadoff in the first place and can the cubs afford not havin his bat in the lineup?
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:15 PM EDT   0 recs

He should bat 8th =D
And his speed would help in the bunting scenario.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

your obsessed
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

why he hitting
leadoff is a question only dusty baker and answer cause i have no clue, he hit 24 hr last year w/ 72 rbi .266/.320/.452 with a 168K, this year he at .232/.270/.379 with 11hr, basically cammy like numbers, who should be hitting 6th
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Anybody else still want
Ciaro to play everyday?
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:19 PM EDT   0 recs

mets don't have an
every day 2nd basemen right now, cairo is as good as any of the rest of them, cairo should play when pedro on the mound cause you don't need that many runs for him and he is the best defender
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Itshitty is pitching tamarra right?
Other than that, with Pedro on Sunday, things are looking up.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:20 PM EDT   0 recs

yeah
he is the scheduled starter
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the mets
need to watch a tom emanski video the base running this week has been horrible
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Ramon Castro...
is seriously one of the dumbest baseball players I've ever seen.  That was a pretty funny display in the dugout though when Floyd went up to talk to him

by RMKMets on Jul 8, 2005 9:23 PM EDT   0 recs

yeah floyd didn't exactly
remind of derek jeter running the bases yesterday
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

leave this poor man alone
http:http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=bartman
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:23 PM EDT   0 recs

he made a mistake
it would have been nice if alex gonzalez could have made a play or prior get and out or dusty got off his ass and pulled prior, let it die already
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Most reclusive man in sports?
He ain't "in sports" and never was.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

who says alou catches that ball anyway
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They didn't need a billy goat
they needed a scapegoat.

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i mean
the poor guy life probably been ruined by all of this at least let him get on with it in peace
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What the hell was Castro thinkin?
Ball goess over outfielder's head and your on second...........you score!
"Hate it or Love it the underdog's on top and i'ma shyne homie until my heart stop"-50 cent

by erik from the bx on Jul 8, 2005 9:25 PM EDT   0 recs

it hit halfway up a 25 foot fence
for god sake he didn't think lawton would catch it
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

did he think gumby
was playing right field
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And here, jonboy
is a preview of Heilman closing out the 9th.

Not much better than Looper tonight...

by peeder on Jul 8, 2005 9:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah
i guess is about the same, tough to watch
its a ground ball...trickling... its a fair ball, its by Buckner, rounding third Knight, the Mets will win the ballgame, the Mets win

by DoctorK16 on Jul 8, 2005 9:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs