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On Milledge, And That Which We Don't Understand

I didn't post an initial analysis of the Lastings Milledge trade because it took me very much by surprise and I didn't want to cobble together something that was more reactionary than level-headed. I hesitate to do so even now, though that's mostly because yesterday's commenting got a little out of hand. Perhaps eschewing my better judgement, some of you still come here because you care what I think, so I would be doing you all a disservice if I didn't at least take a crack at explaining this one.

Trades are ultimately judged twice: First at the time the trade is consummated and again sometime down the road once we have the benefit of hindsight. It will be some time before we can answer the latter, and the former can be further divided into two categories: From the perspective of the fans (i.e. outsiders) and from the perspective of the Mets' front office (i.e. insiders).

From the fans' vantage this trade looks like a poor one for the Mets. We have followed Milledge's exploits -- both on the field and off -- since he was drafted by this team in 2003, 12th overall. He was a very accomplished minor league hitter, and he finally got a bit of playing time for the Mets in 2007 and hit impressively, to the tune of .272/.341/.446. He is solid defensively and is still just 22 years old (he turns 23 in April). He appears to be a talented player who is likely to only get better as he matures as a hitter and gains more experience at the big league level.

Ryan Church was originally a 14th round pick of the Indians in 2000 and was dealt to the Expos in 2004 in a trade that send reliever Scott Stewart to Cleveland. He has hit .271/.348/.462 over 1,132 Major League plate appearances spanning four seasons, and is a .292/.371/.507 career hitter in the minors. He turned 29 in October, making him almost six-and-a-half years Milledge's elder. His defense in left field, at least according to David Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range, was very good last year. His defense in center was similarly good. Assuming he doesn't get spun off to another team in a different trade, Church is likely pegged to play right field at Shea in 2008.

At the plate, Church struggles against left handers:

Split PA AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs RHP 891 .275 .352 .481 .833
vs LHP 241 .254 .331 .392 .723

On the other hand, in more limited playing time Milledge has had his own struggles against righties:

Split PA AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs RHP 258 .246 .300 .403 .703
vs LHP 133 .281 .379 .439 .818

Church was actually considered by some to be the throw-in while catcher Brian Schneider was the centerpiece. I can't really imagine why, as Schneider is an aging, once-superior defensive catcher who doesn't hit much and will make around $10 million through 2009. Here are his OPS+, EQA and CS% over the past five seasons:

Year OPS+ EQA CS%
2003 78 .235 53%
2004 83 .245 50%
2005 97 .261 40%
2006 72 .230 30%
2007 77 .240 31%

Schneider turned 31 at the end of November and has seen his offense and defense decline substantially over the past five seasons. That's a scary trend line that is only likely to continue receding as Schneider gets older. It isn't clear that Schneider is appreciably (or any) better than the Ramon Castro/Johnny Estrada catching duo that the Mets already had.

Even if we somehow -- and against our better judgement -- considered the talent exchanged to be even, this is still a bad trade from a franchise standpoint because there really is something special about having one of your own kids develop into a ballplayer, more so than acquiring a player who performs equally well. Church may turn out to be a solid player for the Mets, and his production could very well improve as he moves from RFK Stadium to Shea. For 2008, this trade might actually improve the Mets on the field. Beyond that, probably not, and that's really why it doesn't make a lot of sense.

As with any trade, there is information we aren't privy to. In this case, there are indications that Milledge was on the chopping block for reasons that weren't at all related to baseball. Milledge has been dogged by controversy since even before he was drafted. He was expelled from one high school for allegedly having a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl (the girl turned out to be his girlfriend and Milledge was reportedly 16 or 17 at the time). He caught the ire of opposing players when he shared high-fives with Shea Stadium fans after hitting a clutch homerun. Most recently, he appeared on a rap record containing questionable lyrical content.

All of these things are known. What we don't know is whether these were the reasons the Mets decided that Milledge was too much for them to stomach. My best guess: The Mets made an executive decision that they would unload Milledge this offseason, regardless the cost. After failing to land a bigger fish by packaging him in a larger deal, the Mets took the best deal they could when they shipped Milledge off to Washington.

In a sense, I don't think the Mets "settled" for the Nationals' offer. If we assume that they were adamant about moving him, I don't doubt that Omar Minaya had phone calls out to any rival GM who might be interested. The bottom line is that the Mets determined they couldn't do any better right now and decided to pull the trigger on this much-maligned trade. Arguments that the Mets should have simply held onto Milledge after finding only tepid interest is moot; they wanted him gone, so keeping him was never really an option. From a fan's standpoint it's difficult to accept, but circumstances outside of our control (and possibly our understanding) necessitated Milledge being moved at any cost.

Some have posited that the Mets' axe to grind with respect to Milledge had more to do with his race than the Mets would ever let on. I don't doubt that there is at least a grain of truth there.

From a baseball standpoint I think this was a stupid, short-sighted trade. I think the Mets had their reasons to make the deal and I think those reasons were largely motivated by issues that have surprisingly little to do with baseball. This trade has already been judged once, and the verdict isn't a good one. As these players' careers unfold, the trade will be judged again, and if Milledge blossoms into the player many expect he will become, the Mets will be left to wonder if maybe they cared too much about what some local reporters think and too little about the big picture.

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my apologies to you Eric
for my role in the previous going to the gutter. I'm not going to add anything else to the discussion of what I obviously think is a asinine trade.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 4, 2007 10:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My bad too...
Didn't mean to offend anyone with the whole obnoxious post.  

by SQUAD on Dec 4, 2007 11:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Millidge will come back n' sting us...
I just got the feeling that he is going to come back to Shea in a Nats uniform and sting us good.

I didn't want to get rid of him, but if we were, I was hoping that we could get some pitching....

Oh well.

by Daktari on Dec 5, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Couple things here
This is not directed at anybody. Its just a comment.

If Milledge already had a shady past before he was drafted, then why draft him? High fiving and a rap album seem......well............like high fiving and a rap album!

And as far as their hitting lines go, what do you think is more likely to happen, Church is going improve against lefties at age 29 and five years of experience or Milledge will improve against righties at age 22 and 1 year of experience?

If Church was a throw-in in this trade its unsettling to me about future trades.

Then again what do i know Milledge could have been doing things in the club house and elsewhere that they just wanted to get rid of this guy.

by sincethebeginning on Dec 5, 2007 10:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

the high fiving and rap song
came after he was drafted, matter fact after he was already playing at Shea. Two weeks after he got drafted some accusations came to light that accused him of statutory rape, which turned out be ridiculous because he was barely 18 when he got drafted. It turns out he got thrown out of his very conservative Christian high school(2 weeks after he helped them win a championship out for baseball btw), for having sex with his freshman girl friend when he was junior. The whole thing was the worse kind of race baiting IMO but people used as evidence as of a shady past. I talk about it my diary that Eric linked to. Anyway the Mets held up his contract to investigate and decided to sign him, because Duquette, who was the GM at that time didn't think it was a big and they would have basically had to forfeit the pick and watch him get drafted the next year.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NOT moot
You say:
"Arguments that the Mets should have simply held onto Milledge after finding only tepid interest is moot; they wanted him gone, so keeping him was never really an option."
If this is true, then this makes Omar's role moot.  The argument, however, is anything but moot.  We are arguing about the fact that the Mets did want him gone.  

What is driving our team?  Does Omar have autonomy, or are the Wilpons actually micro-managing?  Are the Mets kowtowing to stodgy veterans who don't like Milledge's brash edge?  Do the Mets perhaps NEED someone with a brash edge?

These are the questions that are of interest.  

by elliot on Dec 5, 2007 11:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Moot
Yes, moot. You may argue that they didn't actually want him gone (or shouldn't have wanted him gone, at any rate). However, if you accept the position that they *did* want him gone, then the given point -- that they should have kept him in light of lukewarm interest -- is moot.

Your other points are valid, but they all speak to the overall validity of wanting Milledge gone in the first place. Once you accept that they wanted to get rid of him you lose the grounds for arguing that they should have held on to him if their asking price wasn't met.

by Eric Simon on Dec 5, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

reasons
There's also the question of why the Mets wanted him gone, if they did.  There are multiple possibilities -- they could have wanted to dump him for baseball reasons, if the organization was convinced he wouldn't develop the way we (or Bowden) think, just as well as they could have wanted him gone for racist and/or personality reasons.  We just don't have enough information to make a conclusion on this -- but if there are good baseball reasons to dump him now, they aren't apparent in any public information, and that leads me to conclude (perhaps tentatively, given that I don't have a scouting staff and the Mets do) that such reasons don't exist.

by anonymous on Dec 5, 2007 12:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eric
is basically saying don't evaluate purely as a baseball trade because it likely wasn't that, it was a dump of a player the Mets wanted gone. That a way to look at it. I personally, and hey maybe its just me, want to know if my organization is run by Archie Bunker.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Validity
I don't think that we disagree.  I am discussing why they wanted him gone.  My position is that they should have kept Milledge because he is young and talented and can become a core player for the Mets - NOT that they should have traded him and gotten more.

by elliot on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Willie speaks, presented with out comment
   Randolph talked with reporters while in the lobby of the Winter Meetings a few moments ago, and said...

    He contends that Milledge will be a good player, but needs to work `across the board,' on offense, defense, base-running, `awareness for the game,' `feel for the game,' and developing a winning attitude, adding, "We see things you guys don't."

Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 12:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'll comment:
LAME.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!

by kingcritical on Dec 5, 2007 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A lot
A lot of people inside that organization need to learn how to win. That isn't a reason to trade him away. I sometimes wonder if the team has a winning attitude the way they folded last year, they way they folded in the final innings of the NLCS, and the way Omar has been acting as GM in a "we don't need to be fixed" way.
.318/.379/.591
.299/.362/.543
.304/.396/.474
.317/.363/.517
.289/.375/.478
.288/.387/.474
.305/.385/.479
.278/.339/.399
Pick your poison

by BlackOps on Dec 5, 2007 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

they folded
in the final inning of the NLCS? weren't the bases loaded? seems like they went down...well, not swinging, certainly. but something along those lines.

by gogomets on Dec 5, 2007 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What BS
Whereas Church, who apparently must already have all of those things, is still just a mediocre player.

by Josh on Dec 5, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, you certainly
can't accuse Willie of being a racist. We should keep an open mind to the possiblity that Lastings had a questionable work ethic which is clearly what Willie is saying here. The winning attitude line is a little weird. Lastings always seemed into the game and psyched to win. Willie could be shading here in light of the trade, but it does give reason to pause.
Save America. Impeach Bush

by elifriedman on Dec 5, 2007 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

look i'm sure Lastings needs to grow
up, we all did when were 22. Willie with these comments is showing himself to be a poor manager. His main job is get the most of these guys, he's saying he couldn't get the most of out Milledge and that's a damning indictment IMO. He's clearly too out of touch to get along with Milledges and appearently Reyes's of the world. Also, don't discount that in order to maintain his own creditablity with the rest of the clubhouse, that Willie was applying a lot of pressure to Milledge so it wouldn't look like he was playing racial favorites. Anyway as we said before, the way we know what happens is for Milledge to make this trade look like the utter clusterfuck it is and people have to start justifying it with the Mets organization, because the media will be all over them, esp. if there struggling a bit.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
willie was afraid of being accused of playing racial favorites. I'm with you on the stupidity of trading Milledge for what we got in return, but this is wild speculation. I'll be honest with you guy-sometimes I think you overemphasize  possible racial motivations
Save America. Impeach Bush

by elifriedman on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it is wild speculation, and probably completely
unfair but you have to admit, him singling out Milledge for transgressions that the whole team was guilty for looks really shaky. Plus you're the one who brought up race, when you said Willie wouldn't have a racial motivation to hate on LM, I was really just trying to point out that that could cut a different way too.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

More Willie Re Milledge
The Mets are built to win now, and while some organizations can be patient with young players, as far as making mental mistakes and maturing, it's a lot to ask of a young guy to be perfect in that respect, especially while playing in pennant race in New York City. `You cannot make mistakes when you're trying to win a championship.
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very bad Willie
saying that the MEts can't be patient with young players cause they have to win now. I've been a fan for over 40 years and like to see young players develop instead of briniging in guys past their prime. This Mets regime doesn't give you too many reasons to root for the team. Heck, I don't know how much patience I have with Willie and Omar after last year's collapse and this off-season's mistakes
Save America. Impeach Bush

by elifriedman on Dec 5, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also that was every reason
to let him play early in the season and not wait til late, he was hurt this year but that should have been the plan for 2008
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
I'm thinking of some "scrappy" 2B on a certain world championship team...

Oh yeah, Dustin Perdoia. Well, he says hello.

by Nick T on Dec 6, 2007 1:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
Nice scapegoat, Mets/Willie/Omar!

Everyone bites the big one in August and September, and they blame the epic collapse on numerous unnamed mental mistakes from Lastings Milledge, who barely played anyway because Willie had a hard-on for Shawn Green??

by vonhayes on Dec 6, 2007 9:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

now i'll comment
Was it Milledge that forgot to step on third in a key spot, did he get thrown out trying to steal third to end a key inning, did he olay balls leading to errors at Shortstop. Throw behind the count fastballs down the middle?
Keep Lastings Milledge Free

by DoctorK16 on Dec 5, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

behind the scenes
you pretty much have to accept there was something going behind the scenes that we may never know to cause this trade.  and even if we knew about it, it may not 'justify' the transaction, but none the less forced the move.  

still blows though.  there is a slim chance in hell we somehow how come out on top, production wise, but we've already lost the payroll/contract battle.  

this is not disastrous by any means, but it does blow.  

by kendynamo on Dec 5, 2007 2:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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